I'm starting to feel like the root of the problem that this site is trying to address, which is really about attendance isn't it? is moot, over.
I mean we know that an awful lot of people "belive in" God in North America, a really lot of people, so it's not really about "conversion" or "convincing people" or even "faith"... it's about something else. Not that that's a bad thing, this site I mean, I like it, a lot, and I think it's important to have this place to talk... but... (that colosal "doubter's corner" but, sorry...) but
What if institutionalized faith has had it's day, done it's duty, accomplished all it can? What then?
Do we really need to sit in capital c Church, listening to tired hymns and often tired sermons, going through the motions? I know church plays a role, important in many people's lives, but seriously, with congregations shrinking, and presbyteries struggling just to keep the doors open, maybe it's time to say sayonara to the bricks and mortar?
What then? Mercifully Christians are not being persecuted in the West, so it's not like we're going to have to convene in the catacombs or anything. But are we going to, do we need to "congregate" at all? Wouldn't a "bridge night" fare us as well?
A question.
hugs to all of you in this most ethereal of communities.
- doubter
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Comments
stillwondering
Posted on: 03/18/2007 21:59
I don't think the main problem is about attendance, about bricks and mortar. If I thought it was, I would agree with you that the UCC should be planning the closeout party. Many rural and downtown UCC communities are aghast at how much of their givings are eaten by buildings - old buildings need a lot of expensive repair - but at the same time new buildings are going up in new residential neighbourhoods. Since we gave up worshipping in tents, the problems of the temples not being where the people migrated has always been problem!
I think the UCC, at both the congregational level at the conference and national levels, thinks the problems are empire, environmental degradation and violence and the solutions are liberating people, both individually and collectively, practically and spiritually to tackle the problems that are diminishing all of us. This church has been an activist in changing the world - internationally through our involvement with building civil society in South Korea and elsewhere, nationally through our participation int he national debate about taxes, same sex marriage, first nations rights and entitlements, the anti-war movements and movements for peace in many parts of the world.
I think these are the main issues. But yes, like any community the concrete problems of facilities, staffing and dollars do get a lot of our attention. But I do believe that is mostly because we need to do our local politics in keeping with our global mandates and that requires process.
Scout6
Posted on: 03/19/2007 14:52
I agree with a lot of what you are saying except that I think what this site is about and the ad campaign is to let young people know that the United Church is open to changing what ever it has to to be inclusive of it's younger members. They are asking the questions and are ready to hear our answers and alter to make room.
That means though, that it is up to us to go to them with our ideas and involvement and let our voices be heard as to what would motivate us to go to "church". We can't sit back and see what they conger up. What kind of forum would interest us? What time of day or week? What kind of music? Coffe or not? Is it still called Church and Bible Study? Is it more about action than sermon?
I think there is still some value in in-person community based around Spirit and Spirit driven works. This site is awesome to come to, but I still want a place to go to at some point during the week and be with like minded people making a difference in my immediate community.
Sundays... not so much. But other times in the week and for other small groups and activities, for sure! I think removing the guilt about not attending Sundays would open up room for a lot of people who would be interested in other aspects of the church but who don't want to go on Sunday morning for a traditional service.
devonunited
Posted on: 03/19/2007 17:53
I don't think I hear any comment as often as this one with the group of friends I talk to at work. Everybody wonders - do you have to go to a Church to worship God? I think we all realize that the answer to that question is No, but the more important question is...DO you worship God at home?
Do you read the Bible and discuss what you find? Do you hold bible studies and discuss your beliefs and ask your questions at home? Chances are, you won't have a lot to discuss because people within a single family typically have common beliefs. I have found that in being challenged, I am forced to explore my own beliefs and develop a clearer vision of my own faith. I can't imagine doing that without a larger group - that just happens (for me) to be at the local Church.
The Church provides an extended family for me that I can rely on, even when my own nuclear family may be having troubles. It provides a place to go that allows me to focus my worship, a place to host youth celebrations, sunday school gatherings where home-schooled kids get to meet new friends they wouldn't meet otherwise, a facility to house recylced items that are made affordable for people who wouldn't otherwise be able to afford clothing, household items and furniture for their family. It's a place that offers the opportunity for people to serve others - an art that is quickly disappearing today, but one of the best ways I know to be closer to God. You have to experience it to believe it.
Churches may have all sorts of negative imagery connected with them - the imposing building I went to as a child in my very uncomfortable, scratchy wool suit that was used for nothing but going to Church - comes to mind. There will always be groups of people attending Church because their parents and grandparents did it - out of a sense of duty, to look respectful in the community they live, and a host of other skin-deep-only reasons. There will always be individuals in each congregation that seem to exude a "holier than thou" attitude, that don't practice what they preach, and a pile of other cliches. However, you'll find those personalities in any large group of people. The trick is to focus on the majority of people who are at their best and thrive on the fellowship that can only be experienced in a Church group.
For years, I was a member of the group of friends who believed I was just fine believing in God from the comfort of my own home. Every time I said so, it certainly relieved my guilt (though I wasn't sure why I was feeling guilty). Over the years, as my faith has evolved, I finally understand that I was simply justifying avoiding the hole that was growing in my heart and soul. The guilt wasn't caused by the Church or my friends - it simply existed as a symptom of denying what I really needed. I took out my feelings of guilt as an attack on all things Church-like; the establishment, society creating guilt and fear, mindless submission to conformity, etc, etc... It took me years to understand I created all of that in my own mind.
The Church isn't just the building - it's a facilitator of what the people within it can do for each other to develop their faith. No, it's not the only way to find your path to your faith, but it's a very good one. I think if you look around, you might be surprised at what you find today in Churches compared to what they were even 10 years ago...I'd urge you to give it a fair chance periodically before turning your back on the possibility that a Church just might provide what you're looking for (and maybe didn't know you were missing)!
Good luck in your search!
fairway
Posted on: 03/19/2007 20:16
It's about togetherness and not hiding your candle. Also strength in numbers, sharing and receiving strength in study, in prayer, in community. Are you spiritual? Believer? Wanting to believe. Come and share and participate with others. Feel the companionship, meet others, discuss with others, have coffee and food together. Your spiritually will grow. We meet in buildings, build buildings, repair buildings, prepare coffee and sandwiches, and wash dishes all in companionship. Actually its fun, not intimidating to come to church.
mrsanteater
Posted on: 03/19/2007 21:25
I have been a church goer all of my life. Reason for this was what RedHagar mentions above- I need the challenge, the exchange, the music, the meditation, the influence from others. Of course, you need to do a bit of church shopping. At one time I considered moving closer to my work place, and drove there on Sunday to check out the United Church there- it made my change my mind.
Sometimes, I had to take the subway for an hour to get to church. But that was a church, which had a real "wondercafe"-(yummy capuccino and all kinds of treats- run by volunteers) and a soup kitchen for the homeless, concerts on the weekends and so on.
I like the United Church for their open mindedness. I think, the congregations can't always keep up with their church. (Kind of opposite to how it is in the Catholic church). I wish, we had more people asking all these faith questions, bringing in their talents. I wouldn't care much about the building. If we run out of money, we could met in peoples' houses. Maybe, it needs to come that way to find out what really is important.
InannaWhimsey
Posted on: 03/22/2007 01:33
I think that it is all up to the individual to decide for themselves what is right for them.
Pragmatically, I see the Church as serving a good purpose.
Realistically, things change over time. The Christianity today in Canada, I think, is much different than the Christianity during Jesus' time. Religions change. People change. Countries change. What is going on with the Anglican church is just a small example of that. Even the Catholic church changes. Even Islam changes.
There is enough variety, I think, for everyone to get what they like in their religious services. What I like saying to others who are trying to fit in to things or who are trying to hard to make others fit them is to find their own 'tribe'. Find your own group of people who like doing what you like to do, go to it and thrive.
cknk
Posted on: 03/22/2007 12:45
I think we need to congregate because we need to help one another in discerning God's word. I think one of the reasons why the church is falling apart is our emphasis on everyone finding God on their own.
Yes, everyone has to have their own experience of God, they can't just rely on some one elses' and No, we shouldn't be told what to do. But there has to be some place in the middle between everyone just inventing all their beliefs themselves and being told what to do in which people can actually talk and help one another come to clearer understandings of things.
lastpointe
Posted on: 03/22/2007 13:37
Life is about communites of all types. WE join, we laugh, we cry , we pray and we grow in those communities.
I think Jesus wanted us together ( something like " whenevver two or more are gathered in my name I will be with you")
It is hard to do anything in isolation. For some this site may serve the purpose but not for me. I go to church to be taught by someone who has spent considerable years learning. I listen, i learn and hopefully I take those lessons to heart and to my life.
Most churches are simple structures and many have closed over the years but they are our meeeting place.
howboy
Posted on: 03/22/2007 18:58
gosh, thanks everyone for your thoughtful responses: reminding me of the important issues the UCC, and other churches, are tackling, the importance of having a place to congregate "for real", and the possibility of healthy communities, AND buildings!
i do agree that "worship at home" isn't really worship... on the other hand, I'd like to see something different, innovative in terms of place/building/architecture... especially around crumbling inner city churches, they have lost their luster and with small congregations are just really sad to me...
what about tearing them down? building condos over top but reserving a "special place" for the congregation call home...
speaking of which, nothing speaks to me more than that idea, that church is your spiritual home, it's not a place you "go to" but a place you "come back to"
hugs,
missjen
Posted on: 03/24/2007 13:00
great comments! i think that anything that brings people together as a community is a good thing (unless it is a hate group of course) . and seeing as i was never a church goer until recently i can relate to what your blog was about. i have never been someone who has had a tie to the community in anyway and i have spent years away overseas missing nothing other than my cat! homesickness was not something i experienced until i started going to my church! i am soon going to be leaving the country again for a year and it is already breaking my heart, and that's a good thing for me. for me worshiping at a church in a multi generational setting has been very enriching. (but for people who are already linked to the community in other ways i can see why it wouldn't be so important.)