Jobam's picture

Jobam

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More going to the conference level.

As a small congregation church member, I was saddened when I found out that “conferences” are now responsible for church camps. The national church has put “camping” as a top priority but takes the local involvement away from the local congregations. Case in point – our local church camp was maintained by our local congregation for many users. Once Presbytery got involved – it added more complexity and local involvement dwindled. Due to the fact that many other congregations were now involved, things that needed to get done never did, and we are constantly looking for volunteers. Presbytery realizes that this is an important Ministry but now that the overseer is conference you can guarantee that the camp won’t last long. People need and want to take ownership in local projects. My understanding is that by moving Ministry and Personnel, Education and Students and Camping to the conference level it frees up local Presbyteries and churches to do more outreach ministry. Our local congregation was thinking that we would look after our local church camp. We would invest time and money and run the camp. When the property owners are miles away – 300 hundred miles – it makes this ridiculous – there is no way conference can “feel” the camps needs, it strengths or its weaknesses like the local Congregations. I thought we came from Congregationalists roots – we seem to be moving in a different direction.

Am I missing the point on all of this!?

Another scenario – our local Congregation runs the Food Bank – now we are thinking of broadening out and looking at possible employment issues for our local community – would “Conference” now be managing our local “Tim Hortons” should we want to open one????? 
It will be interesting on how staffing is done at the conference level for Ministry and Personnel  issues – I would hope that it would be mandatory of Conference offices to hire Human Resource folks who major in Human Resources first, then theology…..
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GordW's picture

GordW

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The camp I attended as a

The camp I attended as a chiild was always an independently incorporated body, still is.  It is not a Presbytery or confreence or congregational entity.  That worked well in some ways, in others it sometimes made the camp's relationship to Presbytery unclear.  I suspecct that, given the staffing and organizational needs of camp ministry these days, few congregations can run one by themselves.

 

I am of a mixed opinion on the move of PR work to the Conference level.  It could work really well, it could be disastrous.  There is knowledge of the local congregation that is needed (by people outside the cogregation) to do this work adequately.  At its best Presbytery has people who carry some fo this knowledge and know where the congregation needs to be pushed.

 

As to the training needed, while HR stuff is needed it is not, ni my mind, tops.  A knowlkedge of how the church systems/structures work (and how they can be made to work/adapted when needed) is tops.  Does anyone out there (DKS, richardbott?) know what the standards for CPMs are currently?

DKS's picture

DKS

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Jobam wrote: As a small

Jobam wrote:

As a small congregation church member, I was saddened when I found out that “conferences” are now responsible for church camps. The national church has put “camping” as a top priority but takes the local involvement away from the local congregations. Case in point – our local church camp was maintained by our local congregation for many users. Once Presbytery got involved – it added more complexity and local involvement dwindled. Due to the fact that many other congregations were now involved, things that needed to get done never did, and we are constantly looking for volunteers. Presbytery realizes that this is an important Ministry but now that the overseer is conference you can guarantee that the camp won’t last long. People need and want to take ownership in local projects.

While I agree about your comment about ownership, the camping model varies greatly across the United Church. In some conferences, a conference ownership model has been in place for years and worked well. In some conference, not at all. 

 

The issue is not the ownership but the change. One of the huge changes over the years has been the increasingly complex regulatory environment surrounding things like water, staffing and safety. What was acceptable half a century ago, when I was in church camping, is simply not longer allowed.

 

Quote:
 My understanding is that by moving Ministry and Personnel, Education and Students and Camping to the conference level it frees up local Presbyteries and churches to do more outreach ministry. Our local congregation was thinking that we would look after our local church camp. We would invest time and money and run the camp. When the property owners are miles away – 300 hundred miles – it makes this ridiculous – there is no way conference can “feel” the camps needs, it strengths or its weaknesses like the local Congregations. I thought we came from Congregationalists roots – we seem to be moving in a different direction.

 

No, we didn't come from Congregationalist roots. The Congregationalists were the smallest of the three "big partners". The largest was the Methodist Church, which was episcopal in its giovernance system.

 

Please also be aware that some conferences have just restructured. Toronto Conference, for example, has downloaded all conference functions other than Settlement and Interview Board to four larger presbyteries. I am told that the HR functions will probably not be uploaded to the conference level.

Quote:
Am I missing the point on all of this!?

 

Somewhat, but don't let that get in the way of a good rant.

Quote:
Another scenario – our local Congregation runs the Food Bank – now we are thinking of broadening out and looking at possible employment issues for our local community – would “Conference” now be managing our local “Tim Hortons” should we want to open one????? 
 
That's probably not a good example. The franchise agreement of Tim Horton exercises a huge amount of control on the franchise owner, including mandatory suppliers, employment policies, store practices and more.
Quote:
It will be interesting on how staffing is done at the conference level for Ministry and Personnel  issues – I would hope that it would be mandatory of Conference offices to hire Human Resource folks who major in Human Resources first, then theology…..

 

A number of our personnel ministers are indeed certified in HR . I thin one has his CHRP, the professional designation for HR staff. From my involvement at GCO I know a few of the staff there do.

Jobam's picture

Jobam

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Thanks DKS - I always enjoy a

Thanks DKS - I always enjoy a good rant...

I hear you on the HR and conference - however, I think you are taking for granted that Presbytery's have access to this person.  This is not the case across the country.  We went through a major M&P issue at the Presbytery level and some of us felt the Conference and National left us out to dry.... 

A personal beef of mine - I would rather have a full blown HR person than a Ministry person - now saying that my, experience is from a small Presbytery/Confernece.  In larger Presbyteries/Conferences there may be more anonymity but my experience is that we don't Minister to our own very well.

Timmy's - it is an example, but what we have to choose from in a small community may limit us - but we are looking.

As far as the Congreationalists - our current model isn't really working - maybe we should look at the little guy...LOL

 

Panentheism's picture

Panentheism

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I am nor sure hr person - on

I am nor sure hr person - on former m&p committee the chair was a hr person and the committee was the most unhelpful because he brought values from business when the church is a relationship - he knew rules but not how to deal with relationships - he knew how to deal with 'employees' through unions -  when a got a teacher it was better because she knew that a work context is a relationship.

 

I know of a case where the presbytery reps to a search committee were hr types - the end is the congregation is mad - unhappy with the choice.  It was because they had a supply minister who was eligible for the call - it was suggested that a relationship was formed so the ethical thing was to deal with him first and if there was not an 80% yes then move on to an open search ( the reason for 80% was there are always some not happy or thinking we can do better and this gives more say to those needs) The presbytery said no because equality meant open ( which really means all are dealt wtih sameness.)   Really sameness is never the case in a relational reality.

 

The other reason for a step porcess would be the new person coming in would not be resented as they will now because there is anger at the process.  And there is perception that a small group used the search and did not represent the desire of the majority.

 

In the reception of the name the process is difficult for those who wanted the person to stay to stand up  to queston- a hand vote was taken. 

 

On the other hand a hr approach may be better if the idea of business to search for a CEO tends to go out to find the person and only advertize when they have not found the person.  In some situations there is a clear message when the date of the ad and the closing date are close.

 

The UU have a better method of dealing with calls.  The old presbyterian system of preaching for a call, and dealing with one person at a time also is better.  Or the anglican systerm where the bishop and the cong choose together -

 

In cases the person in personal in a conference is at a disadvantage - too many conficting roles to fulfill - support of ministers, and support of cong can conflict.   And they can only advise and block.

Rev. Steven Davis's picture

Rev. Steven Davis

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Panentheism wrote: I am nor

Panentheism wrote:

I am nor sure hr person - on former m&p committee the chair was a hr person and the committee was the most unhelpful because he brought values from business when the church is a relationship - he knew rules but not how to deal with relationships - he knew how to deal with 'employees' through unions ...

 

I've also had that experience and agree with your observations entirely. HR types are not necessarily the best equipped to deal with what on the surface seem to be HR issues in the church.

 

panentheism wrote:

The UU have a better method of dealing with calls.  The old presbyterian system of preaching for a call, and dealing with one person at a time also is better.  Or the anglican systerm where the bishop and the cong choose together 

 

I'm not familiar with the UU system. To me, the whole "preaching for a call" concept seems to put far too much emphasis on preaching to the exclusion of all else. As to the Anglicans - I will confess that over the years my thinking about ecclesiology has been in evolution and I'm somewhat more sympathetic to the episcopal system than I used to be.

 

panentheism wrote:

In cases the person in personal in a conference is at a disadvantage - too many conficting roles to fulfill - support of ministers, and support of cong can conflict.   And they can only advise and block.

 

There's also the fact that the Personnel Minister - whose function used to be described as "pastor to the pastors" - is involved in the disciplinary process. Franky, I'd never take concerns over conflict with my congregation or most other issues to the Personnel Minister (although I like and respect our Personnel Minister)  because I'd have no way of knowing how the Personnel Minister would end up having to handle the situation.

Panentheism's picture

Panentheism

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The UU system is a revised

The UU system is a revised preaching for a call - which at its best was the same as the UU - the person comes in for more than a sunday. It is like a university system where one gives a lecture, meets with the education and other committees, and just hangs out.  It is an extended interview with more face to face time - this is what I understand from our friend who is an uu cong in London.

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