Hi GordW,

I agree.  Always as a whole but not necessarily always at all.  The only time I get close to separating the two would be on Good Friday which I believe is the confession of sin to Easter Sunday's Assurance of Pardon.

Amen.  I think the biggest problem with the confession of sin is the theologically corrupt understanding of what sin actually is.  It is to fall short of perfection more so than it is being perfectly evil.

Emphasis on the hopefully forgiving.

We might not have a formal confession/assurance in every service.  When that doesn't happen there is the LORD's Prayer which includes both.

Grace and peace to you.

John

This is one of the boring parts of the Church service.

It is to remind us of how bad we are.   I used to tune out before the minister looked all happy and said "This is good news, my friends, your sins are forgiven"  or something to that affect.

Once something is said repeatedly it totally loses  its meaning.

I was never sure of the point of this.

I, personally, like the idea that part of worship should be acknowledge that we have our failings; those moments where we have failed to live up to our ideals and principles. So, I'm in basic agreement with RevJohn, Gord, Pinga, et al. But, I'm a UU so this is very much my personal faith speaking, not my church. Certainly, the language and approach used to Confession and Assurance in the UCC church I attend hasn't raised my UU hackles so far (they are liberal/progressive in theology, if somewhat traditionalist in liturgy).

In my UU fellowship, however, the idea of doing this on a regular basis would not be well received by all unless it was very carefully framed. Many humanist UUs left Christianity precisely because they resented notions of Original Sin and guilt that were heavy-handedly laid out by the homes and churches where they grew up and which we, as UUs, certainly do not espouse. Gord's mention of using the term "Prayer of Reconciliation" would be a good start if I was going to come up with a "Confession and Assurance" for a UU congregation. However, the emphasis would necessarily be reconciliation with our values and  community rather than the Divine (although the language could be made broad enough to encompass that for those more theistically-inclined UUs who believe in God and divine forgiveness).

Mendalla

And I agree with the group of you, as well. Surely the Second Coming is imminent!

She-devil, you said,

"Once something is said repeatedly it totally loses  its meaning."

That's a very strange thing to say, coming from someone who needs so desperately to hear, "I love you. I care for you. Please forgive me, and I will forgive you, and thank you. You are mine. I know there have been mistakes, but let's try again. I love you. There is hope for our situation. There is hope for our relationship. I want to love you, and I want you to love me."  

Frankly, those are things I want to hear again and again and again. From God, and from my partner.

But if that repetition is rote, from habit, it doesn't have the desired effect. If her husband was just going through the motions of saying he loves her but doesn't back that up with other gestures, then it's meaningless. Similarly, confessing our sins just because it says to do so in the order of service and not thinking twice about what those sins might be or why we are confessing them reduces it to empty ritual. I'm sure that you don't just want to hear those things again  and again, but want them to be real and heartfelt and have an impact on your life. What She_Devil may be saying is not that the repetition is bad, but that empty repetition is (correct me if I'm wrong, S_D).

Mendalla

I guess I wonder (maybe from too much When God is Silent exposure) if some words are so maligned, so full of it, so beyond our dusting off or hosing down and we cling to them still like "vine ripe tomatoes". For those unfamiliar, Talyor says that have read once "vine ripe tomatoes" and bitten into a mealy pink hard thing, you never trust "vine ripe tomatoes" again.

The "yeah, yeah, I am bad, God is good" that some people are hearing from "vine ripe tomatoes" does not help them experience or relate to God.

The "repeat after me" folks aren't either.

The people who read a list of stuff that they don't do aren't either. They have places, but recite someone else's places.

Those beaten by confession and sin have too much "vine ripe tomatoes" stuff and baggage to see God in the words or to get beyond them to relate or experience God.

Do we do stuff out of habit or Order of Service or do we do it for experiencing and relating to something Divine? 

Could we not say this is the time for our own shortcomings or falling short places or where you want to strive to do better... then let people and the Spirit speak instead, in ways that are meaningful to them?

Again, likely too much When God is Silent

Hi GeoFee,

Are you saying that other times you have been disagreeable it was because you had no other option?  

If that is all the Confession of sin becomes then it has done less than little.  I'm not hearing anybody advocate that particular tack.

Not in my experience.  Personally the confession and requisite assurance are statements of the obvious.  I have fallen short of God's glory.  I can either lie there in the filth of my sin and await my just wage or, I can get up, dust myself off and try again.

Just because I have fallen once, twice or a hundred times it does not follow that with the grace of God I must always fall.

It is a possibility.  I do not know that it is a certainty.  Confession is hardly an apologetic justifying my God-given right to fall as often as I like.  It draws a sharp line between myself who is not God and the God who is.  Repentance is not likely to happen with that line nowhere to be seen.

Grace and peace to you.

John

Greetings!

We also have the Prayer of Confession and the Words of Assurance each Sunday, done separately from other prayers, and printed as such in the bulletin.  It generally follows the Children's Time and after the children have gone to their classes for Sunday School.

As a christian who attends a christian church (UCC) this is an important part of the service for me.  It is a time that I am reminded of God's grace in my life and in the life of the church.  We fall short and miss the mark . . . the good news - God's grace . . . we confess, we are forgiven.  The assurance reminds me of who God is and what God does.

Hope, peace, joy, love . . .

Mandella-

I am one who given a book to study, reads and then rereads with a highlighter (to highlight the aha's or the hmmm's, the important or good or brilliant). I can honestly say that having never so much as heard of Barbara Brown Taylor before this book, she struck me different than most I have ever read. She speaks of using language with economy, courtesy and reverance... and she nails it. It is a tiny little book that would almost fit in my jeans pocket but I wound up highlighting more than was not highlighted. Her use of language is absolutely brilliant.

Random quotes from When God is Silent by Barbara Brown Taylor

"Most of us are "damaged trusters" where language is concerned. We have been seduced and dumped by language, we have been bullied and tricked When people come at us with words we would like... to check for weapons."

"Our listeners... do not grow new ears when they walking into church. They are on the defensive, most of them...."

"...preachers get into the business of giving answers instead of ushering people into the presence of God who may or may not answer."

"we try to toss the fragile nets of our words over the bone-melting, universe-making music of God."

"If  people go away from us full, then we have done them a disservice"

I would recommend it highly.

Our Church consistently has Confession and Assurance said separately.  They are also consistently at the beginning of the service after the opening hymn.

Almost always I found them to be relevant to the current - e.g. the environment or social justice - or touching something deeply personal in me.  As Rev John mentioned both the confession and pardon focus on our inability to achieve perfection with the assurance that we are at least capable of trying.

Sometimes they are spoken in unison, sometimes the Minister reads one or the other alone, and sometimes single lines are read by one or the other.

I have often wondered who writes these - do they come from the individual minister or the UCC?

Thank you Gord.

I don't know who authors ours but I have always found them to be thought provoking and they are one of my favourite parts of the service.