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sighsnootles's picture

sighsnootles

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arctic ice melting faster than expected

i wanted to post this here for all of you who keep claiming that there is 'no evidence' that human activity is contributing to global climate change...

 

whomever it was who said 'find me one study that proves that the climate is changing, and that human activity is causing it', beshpin i think...

 

here you go.

 

Arctic ice melting faster than feared: study


The head of the largest climate change study ever undertaken in Canada says the Arctic sea ice is thinning faster than expected.

"It's happening much faster than our most pessimistic projections," said University of Manitoba Prof. David Barber, the lead investigator of the Circumpolar Flaw Lead study. A flaw lead is the term for open water between pack ice and coastal ice.

The study aboard the Canadian Coast Guard research ship Amundsen began in July 2007 and involved 370 scientists from around the world.

It was the first time a research vessel had ever remained mobile in open water in the Far North.

Barber called the expedition climate scientists' "first opportunity to look at what the Arctic Ocean looks like in the middle of winter."

They found that Arctic sea ice is disappearing faster than scientists expected.

"We're seeing it happen more quickly than our model thought [it] would happen," said Barber.

Warning for the south

"It's an early indicator of what we can expect to happen further south," Barber said at a news conference in Winnipeg. "We can expect things to happen faster here, too."

Barber said the human impact on climate is being superimposed on the natural variation in climate and temperature.

The result is more variability in the climate: warm spells are getting warmer and the cold spells are getting colder.

The researchers also found that storms have become more frequent in the North as the sea ice thins.

"There are more storms now because there's more open oceans and those storms are having a dramatic impact on the sea ice," said Barber.

The storms drop precipitation, mostly snow, on the sea ice and the snow insulates the ice, keeping it from growing thicker.

Barber said much of the research undertaken on the Amundsen involved measuring the effects of changing climate on the Arctic.

"We know we're losing sea ice. What you're not aware of is - what the consequences of this change are," said Barber.

'Sea ice breathes'

Barber compared the impact of losing sea ice in the Arctic to the loss of trees in a tropical rain forest.

The Arctic sea ice isn't just a cap on top of the ocean, Barber said. "The sea ice breathes," he said. "It pumps carbon dioxide in and out."

The researchers also found pollutants in the sea ice.

"The Arctic is not as pristine as you would like to think it is. It's actually a dumping ground for a lot of contaminants," he said.

The Circumpolar Flaw Lead study was not only the largest climate study ever undertaken in Canada, Barber said, but the biggest study conducted during the International Polar Year.

The Canadian government provided $156 million in funding for the research during the International Polar Year from 2007-09.

The expedition involved 10 science teams, studying every aspect of the Arctic environment, from microbes to mammals to weather systems.

Barber anticipated that each one of those teams would have at least 10 papers published in peer-reviewed journals.

Barber also emphasized the role that traditional aboriginal knowledge played in the research, especially in mapping the edges of sea ice.

Barber said it's now up to governments to find solutions for climate change.

"[Scientists] don't just write for each other. We have to write for the policy-makers," said Barber.

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jesouhaite777's picture

jesouhaite777

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It still does not prove anything ......

I and my fellow Rain Makers will brew up a storm today and see what happens

Polar bear farts can be a factor too

And seals boy those guys are gassy

 

sighsnootles's picture

sighsnootles

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sure it does, jess...

 

do you want me to read it out loud to you or something??

jesouhaite777's picture

jesouhaite777

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there is a lot more evidence that it has to do with plain and simple gravity of the ice mass ....things shift ... melt  .... collide.......  much like tectonic plates ..... but I suppose we should take the blame for earthquakes too ....

 

 

sighsnootles's picture

sighsnootles

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jesouhaite777 wrote:

there is a lot more evidence that it has to do with plain and simple gravity of the ice mass ....things shift ... melt  .... collide.......  much like tectonic plates ..... but I suppose we should take the blame for earthquakes too ....

 

 

 

really??

 

cause this evidence is from a large study that began in 2007, and involved quite a few scientists world wide. 

 

are you suggesting that the information regarding the polar ice disappearing is false, or that the statement that human activity is accellerating it is false??

jesouhaite777's picture

jesouhaite777

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Not false but not the whole truth

Dig deeper

Sigh ...............

MikePaterson's picture

MikePaterson

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 Sigh...

you're right and not as right as you could be: the evidence against Jes's knee-jerk denial is absolutely overwhelming. Jes seems to have sworn the same oath of alleigeance to the oil sand barons as our prime minister. Ultimately, obessive-compulsive behaviour like this hits a brick wall at a velocity that is the IQ deficit cubed.

It's alarming that, in relation to this issue, other people are already getting hurt, and the toll will rise dramatically with the sea level and the average global temperature.

Best wishes sigh. 

Jes, I do hope that any grandchildren you may have hold low expectations of  their own sustainability. and that they will be forgiving of their grandparent's role in curtailing their opportunities.

sighsnootles's picture

sighsnootles

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jesouhaite777 wrote:

Not false but not the whole truth

Dig deeper

 

 

huh??

 

can you just come out and say what it is you think is 'not the whole truth'??

jesouhaite777's picture

jesouhaite777

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You would have to do your own research ..... instead of just clicking on the first headline that makes you feel assertive about posting something important

Jes, I do hope that any grandchildren you may have hold low expectations of  their own sustainability. and that they will be forgiving of their grandparent's role in curtailing their opportunities.

I certainly hope I can avoid this kind of senility down the road

You two should stop mixing meds ....

GordW's picture

GordW

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To be fair sigh, the article only shows that the ice is melting due to increased heat.  IT doesn't technically prove what the cause of the heating is.

 

But I am not sure teh cause is relevant.  I think I'll start another thread for that discussion though

sighsnootles's picture

sighsnootles

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no, the article states that according to the research they have, there is a strong human impact transposed on the natural variations they are seeing...  its written right there in the article.

sighsnootles's picture

sighsnootles

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jesouhaite777 wrote:

You would have to do your own research ..... instead of just clicking on the first headline that makes you feel assertive about posting something important

 

actually, my husband used to work in the arctic de-commisioning the DEW line sites... he said that the permafrost was disappearing so fast in some places, they literally had to dig up entire dump sites and encapsulate them to stop them from eroding so fast... most noticably in the mackenzie delta area. 

 

hows that, jess??  is that 'hands on' enough for ya??

jesouhaite777's picture

jesouhaite777

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no it's more like second hand

GordW's picture

GordW

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sighsnootles wrote:

no, the article states that according to the research they have, there is a strong human impact transposed on the natural variations they are seeing...  its written right there in the article.

 

In their opinion (an opinion I happen to agree with).  But you can't prove it.  The only conclusive proof would be if there was another Earth that had gone through the same last 2 centuries without humans burning fossil fuels like they would never run out.  Since that can't happen the hypothesis can never be proved, or disproved.  SO I think the "did we cause it" is a red herring.  We would be much better off accepting that human activity has some role and asking what we can change, what impact we can make.

 

Better use of our mental, psychological and emotional energy that way

jesouhaite777's picture

jesouhaite777

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 But you can't prove it. 

A lot of it is unprovable

GordW's picture

GordW

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jesouhaite777 wrote:

 But you can't prove it. 

A lot of it is unprovable

Not nearly as much as some would like though.

 

Acrctic and Antarctic ice disappearing?  Provable and proved/

PErmafrost thawing?  Provable and proved.

GLaciers receding?  Provable and proved.

HIgher tides and storm surges?  Provable and close to proved.

 

Ultimate cause, who plays how much of a role?  up for debate.

The need to do what can be done?  Wellthat depends who we want to condemn to death I guess

Brittany Caroline's picture

Brittany Caroline

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I agree and disagree with the article , first off, it does make sense that the ice is melting when the  heat is increasing, ice melts in heat ! obv. But technically the article doesnt state the cause, so you can't exacrtly say. ! I do think we (humans) are the biggest cause for this change, but were not the only cause..... I think you guys should stop arguing, and do some more research to post up, it'll be interesting to see, what you two come up with !! :)

MikePaterson's picture

MikePaterson

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 All of the uncertainties are about quantitative details; the causes, effects and narrative IS proven to the extent that human resources can prove anything at all..

jesouhaite777's picture

jesouhaite777

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 you have neither the expertise, nor the sufficient knowledge

that could be said for a lot of the so called enviromental movement

jon71's picture

jon71

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Thank you for sharing that sighs. I hope more people pay attention before it's too late.

MikePaterson's picture

MikePaterson

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 Besh: FYI... I'm a psychology graduate.

sighsnootles's picture

sighsnootles

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jesouhaite777 wrote:

 But you can't prove it. 

A lot of it is unprovable

 

so, actually seeing the permafrost disappearing first hand is not proof HOW??  actually seeing glaciers receeding year after year after year (a friend of mine is a climatologist at carleton university, he spends 4-6 months in the arctic studying glaciers every year) is not proof HOW?? 

 

what exactly are you saying is unproven??

jesouhaite777's picture

jesouhaite777

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The reasons for the melt are hard to prove to any one thing .......

Besh: FYI... I'm a psychology graduate.

Even so an online diagnosis would be in poor taste in professional circles

sighsnootles's picture

sighsnootles

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jesouhaite777 wrote:

The reasons for the melt are hard to prove to any one thing .......

 

so, you are saying that you don't believe that human activity is contributing to this situation in the arctic, then??

jon71's picture

jon71

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jesouhaite777 wrote:

The reasons for the melt are hard to prove to any one thing .......

 

 

Maybe the ice felt like going south for the winter.

 

You know, sometimes it's o.k. to go with the obvious.

airclean33's picture

airclean33

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sighsnootles wrote:

jesouhaite777 wrote:

 But you can't prove it. 

A lot of it is unprovable

 

so, actually seeing the permafrost disappearing first hand is not proof HOW??  actually seeing glaciers receeding year after year after year (a friend of mine is a climatologist at carleton university, he spends 4-6 months in the arctic studying glaciers every year) is not proof HOW?? 

 

what exactly are you saying is unproven??

   Or could be all that hot air going North.

jesouhaite777's picture

jesouhaite777

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probably an underfunded community college

sighsnootles's picture

sighsnootles

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jesouhaite777 wrote:

probably an underfunded community college

 

only if you live in alberta.

airclean33's picture

airclean33

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sighsnootles wrote:

jesouhaite777 wrote:

probably an underfunded community college

 

only if you live in alberta.

  Now  Thats funny  Sigh ---- I belive we been in a warming trend for a long time . The north pole is melting. The south pole is getting more ice .I gusse that means if you want ice go south? As far as man Polltuing  I Agree we should look at it. But whose factory do close yours? whose car do we take away yours? Whose Furnace do we shut off yours? Two summers ago was cool . Last summer was cool . last winter bad this winter not so much. I did Read that Mars has gone up 2 degees in the last 10 years?  Can we get this earth to cut back ? We can't even get them to stop killing each other.

sighsnootles's picture

sighsnootles

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airclean33 wrote:

 

 Sigh ---- I belive we been in a warming trend for a long time . The north pole is melting. The south pole is getting more ice .I gusse that means if you want ice go south?

 

really??  i haven't seen that information... can you post that for me??  that would be a glimmer of hope for me, anyways...

 

 

airclean33 wrote:

As far as man Polltuing  I Agree we should look at it. But whose factory do close yours? whose car do we take away yours? Whose Furnace do we shut off yours?

 

no, you make the factories clean up their act.  crap, they make money off it, usually... for example, the shand coal fired power station in estevan, SK had to put scrubbers on thier stacks to eliminate the fly ash that they were putting into the air.  then, they discovered that what they had captured with the scrubbers was actually a key component in concrete production, so they started selling it to the construction companies. 

 

now, they are using the heat coming out of the condensers to warm greenhouses, and are now growing seedlings that are native to the area to help hold the soil in place when they have to replace the ground that they have finished excavating coal out of.

 

far from being a problem, airclean, it is employing many more people, and making a profit where there was none before.

 

 

 

airclean33's picture

airclean33

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sighsnootles wrote:

airclean33 wrote:

 

 Sigh ---- I belive we been in a warming trend for a long time . The north pole is melting. The south pole is getting more ice .I gusse that means if you want ice go south?

 

really??  i haven't seen that information... can you post that for me??  that would be a glimmer of hope for me, anyways...

 

 

airclean33 wrote:

As far as man Polltuing  I Agree we should look at it. But whose factory do close yours? whose car do we take away yours? Whose Furnace do we shut off yours?

 

no, you make the factories clean up their act.  crap, they make money off it, usually... for example, the shand coal fired power station in estevan, SK had to put scrubbers on thier stacks to eliminate the fly ash that they were putting into the air.  then, they discovered that what they had captured with the scrubbers was actually a key component in concrete production, so they started selling it to the construction companies. 

 

now, they are using the heat coming out of the condensers to warm greenhouses, and are now growing seedlings that are native to the area to help hold the soil in place when they have to replace the ground that they have finished excavating coal out of.

 

far from being a problem, airclean, it is employing many more people, and making a profit where there was none before.

 

 

 

So you think that all we done helped? We may do many other things to stop are foot print, SIGH  But what do we do with CHINA? They put a new coal Fired hydro pant every week . that is burning the worst sulpher coal in the world.     NOW SIGH  You mean to say you never hered of the ICE AGE. I understand Its been Receding for a long time. Sorrey cannot give day or hour. I understand where I live use to have 150ft of ice over it . I can not prov it though. I wasn't here.

airclean33's picture

airclean33

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 Sighs --------sorrey about the ice age thing . Thats if you  could read it. I read your note again . You were asking where I  found out there was more Ice in the south Pole . I read it in the toronto star about 3 months ago.

sighsnootles's picture

sighsnootles

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so, you are saying that there is evidence that there is more ice developing at the south pole now??

airclean33's picture

airclean33

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sighsnootles wrote:

so, you are saying that there is evidence that there is more ice developing at the south pole now??

    Yes according to the star . the south pole. cap is getting bigger. That don't mean we should just go on polluting.But the world has to come together to STOP IT.

jon71's picture

jon71

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I've seen many reports in the news that BOTH poles are losing ice. Every summer (which is opposite for each pole) some of the ice melts and every winter some refreezes. Lately we've seen more melt every summer and less refreeze each winter. It's a troubling trend.

sighsnootles's picture

sighsnootles

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airclean33 wrote:

  Yes according to the star . the south pole. cap is getting bigger. That don't mean we should just go on polluting.But the world has to come together to STOP IT.

 

i talked to my husband about this, and he said that to the contrary, the ross ice shelf in the south pole, which is the largest ice shelf in the world, lost a HUGE chunk recently... it just crumbled and vanished in some ridiculously short time frame, like a month or something...

 

are you sure you read the report correctly, airclean??

airclean33's picture

airclean33

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Sigh ------Both my wife and I read it .But if your husband is a scientist I would think you should delive him. By the way Sigh I was watching you help Beshpin  quiet down . I see you use the same method as me If they won't Quiet down join them. YOUR FUNNY

sighsnootles's picture

sighsnootles

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airclean33 wrote:

Sigh ------Both my wife and I read it .But if your husband is a scientist I would think you should delive him. By the way Sigh I was watching you help Beshpin  quiet down . I see you use the same method as me If they won't Quiet down join them. YOUR FUNNY

 

huh??

 

airclean, i'm not being sarcastic with you here, pal... i'm actively trying to find this report that you read, and i'm coming up with nothing, and in fact am coming up with stuff that is saying the exact OPPOSITE of what you read.

 

can you find that report, airclean??  again, if what you claim to have read is true, that is a glimmer of hope for me, and i would LOVE to have that. 

 

 

airclean33's picture

airclean33

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 Sigh--------  I will try to get inflow from Star for you.

gecko46's picture

gecko46

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One of the best books I have read about the climate crisis is HIGH TIDE by Mark Lynas.

The author personally travelled to places such as Tuvalu, the Andes, the Arctic - he collected hard evidence of how global warming is affecting people's lives.

The evidence is compelling.

InannaWhimsey's picture

InannaWhimsey

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airclean33,

 

all I've heard so far is that the antarctic ice is getting smaller in some places, larger in others, so the net effect is No Change.

 

sighsnootles,

 

here are some links to get you started in your QUEST:

 

http://www.greenhousetruth.com/blog/2007_11_6_ice.shtml

 

http://news.oneindia.in/2010/02/12/antarcticice-shelf-collapse-possibly-...

 

Just a Self-writing poem,

InannaWhimsey

sighsnootles's picture

sighsnootles

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well, that is hopeful... thank you, innana!!!

jon71's picture

jon71

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Recently Washington D.C. has had oodles of snow. The idiots at Fox news and Senator idiot James Inhofe (of an oil producing state, big surprise) have been saying "oh look at all the snow, I guess global warming isn't real". Get this, this January, with all that snow, the temperature in D.C. was one degree HOTTER than the average for the last 40 years. What the deniers don't get is that to make snow and ice you need water and a temperature below 32 F. (0 C.). With D.C. sitting on the Atlantic ocean the waters easy enough and a 1 degree rise in temperature isn't going to keep D.C. over 32 F. for all of January. You should also note that Vancouver is having to IMPORT snow for the Olympics BECAUSE IT'S TOO WARM. Yet are the people saying D.C. disproves global warming making any mention of that? Of course not, that would be facts that don't support their ideology so those facts must be ignored. I can't help but laugh at the deniers.

sighsnootles's picture

sighsnootles

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is fox covering the olympics at all??  cause the rain and fog at cypress mountian, one of the host venues, is really causing some headaches for the organizers. 

 

vancouver was touting itself as 'the greenest games ever'...  be careful what you wish for.

LBmuskoka's picture

LBmuskoka

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I tried to find Airclean's article about the ice caps and couldn't but I did find an editorial that, I hold, sums up the debate....

 

Global warming may not be the greatest threat facing mankind.

 

But that is no excuse for inaction in Ottawa. It is no reason for Canada to keep fouling the only habitat humanity has.
 

Carol Goar, Questions for climate change skeptics

 

As for Washington, they may be calling it  a freak snow storm, which it is not,  but it would have barely registered in the 18th century....

 

The Long Winter of 1783-1784: Not as cold as 1780, this winter lasted longer into the spring, and was thought to rank near the top for extremes in cold and snow. The Chesapeake Bay once again froze almost all the way to the mouth. James Madison in Orange County, Va. wrote in a letter to Thomas Jefferson, "We had a severer season and particularly a greater quantity of snow than is remembered to have distinguished any preceding winter." The thaw caused an ice jam on the James River at Richmond that gave way, causing a flash flood of ice and water that swept away a bridge and sank boats that were tied up below the falls. Ice on the Potomac did not break until March 15th.

Virginia's Weather History

jon71's picture

jon71

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http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/02/10/AR2010021003276.html

 

In other tragic news the heat is killing people in Brazil. I know were mostly N. Hemisphere but it's summer below the equator and apparently it's a vicious one. Whadda wanna bet the conservatives don't make a peep about this story either. I dread thinking that in 5 - 7 months summer will be hitting us.

The_Omnissiah's picture

The_Omnissiah

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sighsnootles wrote:

 

only if you live in alberta.

 

Or the NWT...or the Yukon...or Nunavut...

 

 

As-salaamu alaikum

-Omni

Witch's picture

Witch

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holocaust deniers,

round earth deniers,

electricity deniers

moonlanding deniers,

evolution deniers,

Obama citizenship deniers,

911 deniers

Kennedy assasination deniers

physics deniers (overunity, perpetual motion, etc)

digital television deniers

AIDS deniers

et., etc. etc

 

To this list of nutbars who choose to grasp at the radical fringe theories of insignificant fringe minorities of self proclaimed "experts", and completely dismiss the wealth of substantive, objective evidence put forward by the entire scientific community (for all intents and purposes), and in their ignorance seem to think they know more than actual experts, despite having little or no formal education in the subject....

 

we can now add...

 

climate change deniers

sighsnootles's picture

sighsnootles

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WITCH!!

 

OH MY GOD, HOW THE HECK ARE YOU!!!???

 

*tackle hugs witch*

gecko46's picture

gecko46

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If you persistently deny the reality of something, then you don't have to do anything about it...and inaction seems to be much easier than action....and the fat cats in the oil and gas industry are loving the skepticism.  Why is it that about a year ago, oil prices were hiked because of an imminent shortage....alarm bells were ringing.  Now I read recent reports that suggest a glut of oil as a result of off-shore discoveries.  People are so relieved to have oil for heat, and fuel for their gas-guzzlers,  that they aren't going to get serious about impacts on climate.

ShamanWolf's picture

ShamanWolf

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The article clearly states the cause.  That's not the same as giving evidence for that statement.  
It gives evidence that global warming is happening, then states a cause without saying why.

 

Beshpin: Nice call on respect... but jesouhaite ought to be held to the same thing for the 'mixing meds' remark.

 

gecko46: Heck yes it is affecting people's lives, that still doesn't prove we are causing it.

Does everyone understand what people are actually arguing about here?  The argument is over the cause.  Not whether it is actually happening.

 

 jon71: Sure, the guys who say there's no actual climate change?  I can't help but laugh at them either... but they're not who you're up against on this forum.

BTW, congratulations, I think that's the most logical argument I've ever heard you make.

 

sigh: Yeah, importing all that snow is actually going to create a shitload of carbon emissions... which will make more winter olympics like this, if the correlation is true.

I was watching the snowboarding yesterday, and the camera was blurry because rain kept hitting the lens...

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