We do live in the future, where the miraculous is commonplace, and the strange is normal.

I like it here.

Next up: Different-Spirited people, Transpecies Operations, and Right-to-Murder (when Resurrection Technology becomes perfected, of coise).

Just a Self-writing poem,

Inannawhimsey

what do you mean by this, inanna??

Apparently, fallacious "slippery slope" arguments write themselves as well.

Now it's my turn to be bemused.

What do you mean by this, m'dear?  I think most here, so far, are on board for the OP :3  There are no demons or monsters here, just people who are excited at how we as a species are growing.

Just a Self-writing poem,

Inannawhimsey

What kind of craziness is Beshpin spouting now?

well then, as a conservative, you should just NOT HAVE ONE and leave the rest of us to our own business, correct??

There's always conversion therapy, which is about as scarring as being waterboarded, and about as effective.

I don't care if you like what they are or not. For them, it's not a matter of choosing their sex; it's a matter of correcting a problem (having a male body when they are female in nature or vice versa) and they deserve better than this kind of scorn.  Bottom line is that are HUMAN beings and should have HUMAN rights, regardless of whether you like what operations they've had or not.

Mendalla

This seems completely unreal to me and I don't see what it has to do with transexuality and sex-change treatments.

I am not opposed to sex changes although I'm inclined to feel that it is a positive thing for a person to accept his or herself as androgynous, a feminine man or a masculine woman without going through the hormone changes and surgery.

If sex change treatments make a person happier then I stand corrected. 

How does everyone get the world they want? 

Your children will be who they are, no matter what your intentions may be.

They will be wonderfully created in the God-image. Transgendered or not, they will be in the God-creation-spectrum, which is a diversity-rainbow. If they are transgendered, that is not a choice they will consciously make. 

Perhaps this could be a Forum Topic or Blog that I could write in the future?  Thank you for the inspiration :3

(how it relates to the OP is that I see, as time goes on, people's personal Rights being made into 'Law', and how exciting that is.  as time goes on, ``morality`` becomes more fine-tuned)

I wouldn't confuse your current life state and your feelings in regarding it with the 'state of the world' or 'the state of your society'.  I find that to be unscientific thinking.

I think all you can really state is that, to you, at this time, such-and-such seems to be the way it is.

You have much more power and choice over what you are writing and thinking than you may think.  Who knows, maybe writing the way you do gives you kicks?  But either way, you create your 'world'.  You are rich beyond measure.

Which is also a choice.  Wether you think of the world as good or bad or bad and good is your choice.  To say otherwise is to give up your own responsibility for your views and beliefs.

I am not saying that, say, when you get into a car accident, you can will your injuries to heal instantly or for the accident to never have happened.  But that after it happens, you have a lot of control over the MEANING of the event.  And we've found out that doing that can even lead to objective states.

It's easy to say that the world is falling apart, or that society deserves to fail, or that we're raping existence...there are people and organizations and ways-of-thinking that encourage this.  It is trendy.  What is hard is trying to break free of that.

You always have a choice, even if it seems like you don't.

Just a Self-writing poem,

Inannawhimsey

LOL!!

how many kids have you raised again??

Beshpin,

You are entitled to your opinion. I am also entitled to tell you as a TG person that you really are making me sick, no matter what it is you are TRYING to say.

You said, "That growth as a society doesn't mean people should be inverting their penis to become a woman." 

I would in some ways agree. As a TG person, in this society, we classify people as male OR female. I fit neither.  I fit both. I went to my wife's Christmas party in a suit and tie. It is who I am and what I wanted to wear. If I had a moustache or was clean shaven with 5 o'clock shadow or went into the men's room it would cause no stares or not even be noticed. I know people who have started hormones so life is easier. Not because a hairy chest or a moustache or breasts make a person, but because society says they do. Boys have _ and _ and  __, Girls have __ and __ and ___.  I feel for those people who do things, not because of their wants/needs, but because of societies BS.

You said "If we're going to talk about this, then what makes a man or a woman? Thought? How they feel? Those are as ludicrous as socially ascribed gender roles."

I would agree that what makes a man or a woman is not about genitals or the way a mind thinks or emotions or who does what around the house.

You said "I have been and will always be strongly against trans-gender operations."

I would ask "Why?" If it is not your body, what makes it "wrong"? Is tattooing wrong? Ear piercing? Breast augmentation or reduction? What change of the body is it that touches on your gross or wrong button?

As a trans gender person, any operation I have is a trans-gender operation. Oh did you simply mean gender reassignment? Do you equally get out of joint about a woman who chooses masectomy over risk of breast cancer or a tumour? Do you crap over breast reconstruction? Are women determined by breasts? I would say no. Do you get out of joint about men choosing orchidectomy over prostate risk or cancer? Do you blow a gasket about penile reconstruction? Are men determined by testes or penis? I would say no. So, if it is not the fashioning of boobs, vagina, penis... if it is not body modification... it is something deeper. What is it?

Patient and doctor discussing options, risks, success and failure... make decision that are THEIRS. Personally, I saw no point in skin grafts and risk to create something not as well constructed as a prosthesis. I was well informed by my medical team and it was MY decision. I could make it because there was no person in my life railing for sugery and no people railing against it.

You said, "My child will not be trans-gendered, as I will raise them to be who they are, not who they want to be. I will teach my children to be happy and confident with themselves, not assuming that they are somehow broken."

I will pray to God that they are not TG. It is hopeful that you seem to dance around society and gender roles and the like, but they would meet disapproval and be hurt, angry... feel judged... by your words the same way as I currently do.

You said" If anyone thinks they were built wrong, they should commit suicide, because an operation isn't going to change how they were built, only how they are mutilated." 
 

This is where you made my stomach churn. The suicide comment, which appears to have been removed. Can you aplogize for a statement made it haste or in anger or spur of the moment or without thinking.... Or are you content, as it appears, to leave it stand?

Because my mentally ill mother, no matter how hard it was for her, never would have suggested I go kill myself. Yet, there is a bit in what you say here that aligns with those who work with transgender folks. If you have problems, work them out. A new physique won't change them. You are the same person inside before and after surgery. It simply aligns your body with your self-image.

That you say some sickening thing about ANYONE committing suicide and THEN you go on to say this: "I would call into question the parenting of any person who is interested in being transgendered." ??? Somehow, to you, is a parent that says "go kill yourself" somehow superior to a transgender parent? Hmmm...

if you truly believe that a child who is transgendered wasn't born that way, but rather conditioned to be that way by their parents, then YES.  you have no idea what you are talking about.

yes.

i have a bachelors degree in nursing, specializing in pediatric nursing, psychiatry, and family centered care.  i also have a professional certifcate in foster care, with a strong component of behaviour modification techniques.  finally, i currently co-facilitate courses for other foster parents in areas of family centred foster care, as well as training biological families proven techniques in discipline. 

i know exactly what aversion therapy is, as well as the latest behaviour modification techniques.

on top of that, i am in the process of raising three biological children, and have done extended care for 13 foster children, working very closely with biological parents to help them learn to care for their children upon their return to the home.

this is why i can tell you, quite competently, that you are talking out of your ass if you seriously believe that a child who is transgendered was 'made that way' by 'questionable parenting'. 

again, the fact that you make a statement like that shows that you have NO IDEA what you are talking about when you discuss concepts like aversion therapy or behaviour modification techniques.  in fact, you sound like someone who has watched 'a clockwork orange' and now feels they can be a psychiatrist.

on what professional grounds do you make that claim, besh??  do you understand what dissociative behaviour is??

considering that people who get gender reassignment surgery only do so after years of mental therapy, i wonder on what grounds you make a claim like this... because with this statement, you are basically calling into question the competence of psychiatrists with years and years of education and experience. 

how many years of psychiatry training and experience have you had, besh??

you've 'read the material'??   first of all, where does this 'material' come from??  did you read it as part of a course of study, or did you just pull it off the net and determine that you are now qualified to make the difinitive statement on transgendered people are and have experienced in their lives??  how do you explain TG people with brothers and sisters who are not??

because for me, it sounds like you are stating that its the parenting skills of the parents which is responsible for the child being transgendered, and i'm curious to see what studies you have found that back this statement up. 

if my kids were TG, i'd make an appointment with our family doctor to begin the process. 

besh, above you are making statements about percentages as it relates to inheritance, and now you make a statement like THIS?!?!

really, besh, what kind of formal training DO you have??

so, you are saying that you really have no training or study in the field of psychiatry then??

well, that certainly frames your statements differently...

thats not what i said, besh... what i said was that current psychiatric practice and study pretty much flies in the face of what you are saying here.  i am saying that its laughable that you feel confident in saying all that you have said here.

nope, again i am simply attempting to understand where your 'information' is coming from, and from what place you are in that you can state that it is parenting techniques which are responsible for TG in their offspring, to the point where you feel comfortable saying that you would call their parenting skills into question.

can you cite some sources, please?? 

Beshpin,

Do you travel outside your box? We had to fight and go to the Human Rights  Commission to get what progress there is that younguns take for granted as always being there. I can tell you that business professional attire was WHATEVER the employer deemed it to be and it CAN BE and STILL IS gender based.

A TG friend who once worked nights and weekends on a Beer Store program for the Ontario call centre giant, Minacs, now known as Aditya Birla Minacs Worldwide Inc., left that position because moving to another program and working 9-5 meant a company dress code. That dress code was a jacket and skirt for females. Pants were not allowed. When pants were eventually allowed, by going to HR and claiming discrimination, they allowed women were to wear slacks and closed toed shoes AND hose. That is less than 8 years ago.

I am sorry, but me in pantyhose is like a woman in a jock strap.

Want to know what a person with a birth vagina faces, that is gender based and ridiculous if you ask me...read:

http://www.financialpost.com/story.html?id=1435848

Now, imagine that person has a birth vagina but lives TG or as the opposite gender or is simply butch. Yeah, I can so picture me wearing makeup in my skin coloured tights and my skirt. Again, Ernest Borgnine in drag.

holy crap, besh... i'm not even going to touch that one.