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The Fall of a Pope

 The Fall of a Pope

 
We are living in my opinion, in a time when the unthinkable will happen. This is a place where I  can discuss it as it happens. It’s kind of hard to do so at school.  I intend to  put links, and news clippings from the web that I find in this forum.   We can speculate and share news, but lets make sure we separate the church, from the corruption. I would like to talk about and share information to enable us to understand the issues, and prepare us, as like I, many  live in communities with large Roman Catholic communities.  This is going to affect us all. It is going to affect how people see God.
 
 
The Characters,
 
Pope Benedict XVI ,
(Ben)use to head the inquisition,  Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. For 26 years he was the Edgar Hoover of the Vatican. He was not just in charge of all cases of sexual abuse by clergy, but other files. It would be like the head of the KGB became President of Russia. (Putin)
 
 
Hans Kung;
long time foe of the Pope and leading Roman Catholic theologian and Priest in Europe. The two have a history, and revisionist Catholics have been providing him with inside information about Ben, since Ben had him silenced. (He removed his Catholic teaching License). The two worked together as advisor during Vatican 2, and Hans got Ben his job as a Professor. He has stated that the Pope is at the centre of the cover-up, and he has documented proof.  It is clear the RC insiders has been feeding him documentation on the activities of Ben for many years.
 
 
 
American lawyers:
Arguable the most powerful group. One American lawyer has already made 20 million dollars in suing the Catholic Church. The Church has paid out over 1 Billion to victims of priests. This means hundreds of US lawyers are now working full time with other victims.
 
 
The Italian Left:
has a long history with the church. The church has been used against the left, and some in the left in Italy are out to get the church” this is important, because in reality, the Vatican is part of Italy.
 
 
The Victims,
(All Church members, and in particular the abuse victims.) This group, arguably the least powerful, will watch as politics takes over their concerns.
 
 
The College of Cardinals and the Vatican Government.
This group has suffered from the loss of their talent pool resulting from the decline of the number of people becoming Priests, plus the decision to exclude honest priests who dissent on issues such as women becoming Priests. These people are not as capable as past church leaders. They are reduced to; the out of touch with the world conservative wing of the church, the inapt, opportunists, and socio-paths, like the former head of the Missionaries of Christ, who raped hundreds of children.
 
 
 
The nightmare scenario for them is not the resignation of Ben. What they fear the most IMHO is the questioning of the legitimacy of the Pope, and having competing claims of authority.
 
 
If it comes out that Ben used his knowledge of insider dirt as head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, to become Pope, and either directly or indirectly threaten to expose some of the Cardinals.  His election as Pope will be questioned. All decisions made by him will become questionable, including appointments to the current College of Cardinals.
 
 
 If it is not clear who holds the throne of Peter, then the Vatican will split.
 
 
 
 
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RussP's picture

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The pope is a MAN!  Ellected by MEN.. Each out to try and make sure the Pope that gets ellected provides for him. Nothing less, nothing more.

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chansen

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Here is an interesting read:

http://www.houstonpress.com/2010-04-22/news/the-man-who-sued-the-pope/

 

 

And here is an equally old piece from CatholicCulture.org, where the author actually writes - I presume with a straight face - that one of the "two" lessons of the abuse scandal is that the secular criticism of the Catholic Church is hypocritical.  Let that sink in for a bit.

http://www.catholicculture.org/commentary/articles.cfm?id=438

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 From the Telegraph.

Belgian Catholic Church sex abuse: we feared compensation claims

 
 

Belgium's Roman Catholic Church did not apologise for decades of endemic child sexual abuse by its clerics because an official apology would triggered a flood of expensive compensation claims, a senior bishop has admitted.

Guy Harpigny, the bishop of Tournai and the senior cleric responsible for rooting out sex abusers within the Belgian church's ranks, has further inflamed outrage by confessing that financial concerns over litigation stopped an official apology.

"We did not dare. If you officially apologise, then you are acknowledging moral and legal responsibility. Then there are people who ask for money and we don't know what lawyers and the courts will do about that," he said.

 

At least 13 of the victims had committed suicide following the abuse, the report found last week, in an investigation fuelled by the resignation of the bishop of Bruges after he admitted abusing his nephew and trying to cover it up.

 
;........
 

Belgian bishops and the Vatican have also clashed over whether the Pope should punish Roger Vangheluwe, the former bishop of Bruges, who plunged the church crisis in April after admitting that he had abused his nephew and had tried to pay off the family.

Federico Lombardi, the Vatican spokesman, said on Monday, that the Pope had no plans for further action after a "quick decision" by the Pontiff "to accept the former bishop's resignation"

 

 

From Time Magazine

 

Belgium's Catholic Church Repents — Too Little, Too Late?

 

 

Acknowledging the scale of the scandal, the head of the church in Belgium, Archbishop André-Joseph Léonard, vowed to do more to help the victims, collaborate further with law enforcement and punish the abusers. "The report and the suffering it contains makes us shiver," Léonard said in Brussels on Monday, as he announced plans to create a center for "recognition, reconciliation and healing" within the church.

But abuse victims immediately slammed his pledges as vague and evasive. They pointed out that the church has yet to show how it will find and punish abusive priests. They also said there is no indication the church is ready to give the police and courts full rein in investigating and prosecuting abuse allegations within the clergy. Nor, they complained, has there been any public apology from the top ranks in the church hierarchy. Guy Harpigny, bishop of Tournai in western Belgium, revealed that this was because of fears that a mea culpa could open the floodgates to compensation claims. The nation's lawmakers are also unconvinced: MPs have called for a parliamentary inquiry into how the abuse could have become so widespread.


"The reforms are smoke and mirrors," says Barbara Blaine, president of the Chicago-based Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests (SNAP), who flew to Brussels to hear Léonard's announcement. "These are bare-minimum, begrudging steps. Hundreds or thousands were raped and sodomized by priests, and the church has been covering it up for decades. But nothing that the bishops have offered gives us any hope that they will change."

Léonard's comments came just days after the commission on sex abuse in the clergy published its findings, which included gut-wrenching detail on cases going back to the 1950s. The 200-page report, which came out on Sept. 10, includes anonymous testimonies from 124 victims describing their torment and their struggles with the trauma even decades later.(See more about church sex abuse around the world.)

The commission, headed by respected child psychiatrist Peter Adriaenssens, found that most of the cases concerned young boys and teenagers, but there was one incident involving a 2-year-old boy. Assaults on boys usually ended by the time they were 14, but abuse of girls — who accounted for about a third of all the cases — sometimes continued into adulthood, the report found. About half of the abusers have died, and 13 victims are known to have committed suicide. While Adriaenssens said there was no evidence of a systematic cover-up of abuse, he was critical of the church's failure to respond to complaints by victims.

The bulk of the revelations in Belgium were triggered by an especially shocking case involving the veteran bishop of Bruges, Roger Vangheluwe, who resigned in April after admitting to raping his own nephew in the years between 1973 and 1986. Vangheluwe's confession came just before his nephew was expected to go public, and that appears to have motivated other abuse victims to come forward and contact Adriaenssens' commission

Read more: http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2019305,00.html#ixzz0zf25qS6C

 

 
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 Meanwhile a Belgian Court in August, ruled the raids held against the church in July illegal, order all documents seized in the raid returned to the church and ruled that because it held the raid to be illegal, no evidence uncovered could be used in charges against either those involved in the coverup, nor against could any charges be laid against abusers exposed by the raid.

 

The decision is being apppealed to a European Court.

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 Among many interesting stories coming out of the UK now, here is an interesting interview from Sky News with Sinead O'Connor, the Irish singer who famously ripped a picture of Pope John Paul 2 on Saturday Night Live in 1992 to highlight the sexual abuse of children in her Catholic church.  Since the whole scandal broke wide open last Easter she has been a regular guest on CNN, MSNBC, BBC, Skynews etc

 

What makes it interesting is that in 1992 she was seen as "crazy" in 1992, and today she is seen as an authoritive voice, representing survivors.  Along with others, her rage is seen as acceptable, and normative.  While in the past she and survivors were lone wolves , easily dismissed,  even their rage being used as an excuse to dismiss them.

 

 

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 It seems that the Pope's visit to the UK is largely being meet by indifference. of course there are those who are using his visit to continue religious debates and promote their own agenda's. From ultra Conservative Catholics to the New Athiest. However it seems to me everything from protests to attendence at Papal masses is quit low.

Susan Boyle the reality TV contestant is getting a lot of press because she got to fulfill a life long wish, "to sing for the Pope"  

 

However the press is giving a lot of space to the stories of victims. Which makes the whole visit a sad affair, almost funeral like, as people grieve.

 From MSNBC

 

Four American women travel to UK to hold silent protest:

 

Our souls were 'murdered' 

 

 

 

Wearing the dress she wore to her first communion and hands held together as if in prayer, the eight-year-old Therese Albrecht looks like a poster child for the Catholic Church.

The caption, which she added as an adult after years of depression, suicidal thoughts and psychiatric treatment, tells a different story: "Raped at age eight."

 
 
Therese Albrecht, Barbara Blaine and Barbara Dorris display photos of themselves as children outside a church in Edinburgh, Scotland.
 

Albrecht traveled more than 3,700 miles from her home in Chicago with three other Americans — who all say they were abused by priests — to hold a silent demonstration. They allowed the childhood photographs of themselves and other victims to make their case.

Speaking from the Scottish capital's Princes Street as they waited for the pope to pass by, Albrecht told msnbc.com that she was sexually abused by a priest from the age of eight to 11 and also by a nun.

 

 

Dorris, 50, of St. Louis, Mo., said she was sexually abused by a priest from the age of six to 13. She said this "destroyed all my self-confidence" and she had suffered from depression and "horrible nightmares."

"I was never a child. I never did any of the normal things other children do," she said. "I spent my life trying to hide from that man, so he couldn't rape me."

 
Barbara Blaine, the president of SNAP, said the group had more than 10,000 members, mostly in the U.S. with some from other English-speaking countries.
 

Despite this, Blaine said that she still considered herself a Catholic, as did Albrecht and Dorris.

"I am a Catholic, but my faith is in God, not in those church officials who have covered this up," Blaine added. "When history looks back on this, it will be seen that we are actually providing a gift for the church.

"If we remain silent, then we think the abuse will continue and the evil will continue in the church. We are exposing evil ... helping to make the children safer. Many people view us as enemies of the church, but we are not enemies at all."

 

 

 

 

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 From ITV

 

 

It seems no attempted arrest of the Pope or anything else special is going to happen. Evene through 11,000 demonstrated against the Pope, this is a relatively low number. between lower than expected turn outs at the Pope's mass, it shows a rather indifferent attitude amongst the people of the UK.  especially amongst Protestants and Anglicans. the demonstrations are largely being attended by Catholics, and the non-religious.

 

I guess Protestants and Anglicans, either see no connection between their faith and the Pope, or just are bewildered by it all and do not know what to do, so they are doing nothing. 

 

The Beligian Courts by ordering the files returned that were seized in the raid last July, removed  a link between the cardinal/Archbishop that was targeted and the Pope which may still yet lead to charges against him after the European court hears the appeal.  This made it safe for the Pope to travel.

 

It has also likely cooled people's willingness in other European countries to come forward with complaints to the police. It was a lay women who had been fired/dismissed from the head of an internal church inquiry who's complaint/report of a coverup which lead to the raid. 

 

Also the decision by the US Supreme court which refused to hear an appeal of a federal court decision that removed the Vatican and the Pope's diplomatic immunity, while dramatic, in real terms it means that the Pope still has diplomatic immunity in 9/10 of the US, so any case that would demand the Pope's arrest can only come from the district court region that removed his immunity.  however there are no cases in that area that is ready to do do so. The case that is going forward first has to sue at a lower court.  The federal Court decision was one that only allowed the case to start, and it will be a couple of years at least before they can demand the Vatican and the pope to hand over the documents that they have, and if the Vatican refuses, than they can demand the arrest of the Pope for contempt.

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A series of church documents were just made public in California, detailing credible complaints and convictions against priests in the diocese of San Diego:

 

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101025/ap_on_re_us/us_california_church_abuse

 

From the article:

Quote:

After a three-year legal battle over the diocese's internal records, a retired San Diego Superior Court judge ruled late Friday that they could be made public. Attorneys for 144 people claiming sex abuse made the papers public Sunday.

The records are from the personnel files of 48 priests who were either credibly accused or convicted of sexual abuse or were named in a civil lawsuit. They include a decades-old case in which a priest under police investigation was allowed to leave the U.S. after the diocese intervened.

The plaintiffs settled with the diocese in 2007 for nearly $200 million, but the agreement stipulated that an independent judge would review the priests' sealed personnel records and determine what could be made public.

The files show what the diocese knew about abusive priests, starting decades before any allegations became public, and that some church leaders moved priests around or overseas despite credible complaints against them.

 

They shipped a pedophile home.  Rather than have him answer for his crimes, and to his victims, and bring shame on the church, they shipped him out of the country, to abuse more children in his home country.

 

These 48 credibly-accused or convicted represent a ~50 year timescale, but that's still an average of one new pedophile priest per year, in just one diocese.  And those are just the ones who were reported and taken seriously.

 

And, most importantly, the documents show the diocese knew.  They knew it, and their first thoughts were not of the children, but of their church.

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 From the Montreal Gazette

Victims uplifted by ruling

 

'A big victory'. Described as miracle from St. Andre

They're calling it a small miracle from St. Andre.

Tongue in cheek, perhaps, but victims of alleged sexual abuse at the hands of the saint's fellow Roman Catholic brothers applauded yesterday's unanimous Supreme Court decision allowing a Quebec woman who was abused by a priest in the late 1970s to launch a lawsuit against the Catholic Church.

 

......................

Yesterday, the Supreme Court bounced another sexual abuse lawsuit involving Roman Catholic clergy back to Quebec Superior Court, which had dismissed the case solely on the fact the victim had missed the three-year deadline to file a civil suit.

The ruling may have snatched the ace out of the hands of Congregation of Holy Cross lawyers, who planned to go into Quebec Superior Court at a scheduled hearing next month and defeat the victims' attempt to sue for damages by claiming they'd passed the three-year time limit.

This month, after the congregation apologized for the abuse, the victims' lawyer wrote the order a letter, saying that if they were sincere the two parties could name a mediator and sit down to settle the suit, saving the victims the pain of having to go through a trial.

The order's lawyer, Eric Simard, said they preferred to go to trial because "they were certain they'd win thanks to the three-year prescription," Cornellier said.

 



Read more: http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/Victims+uplifted+ruling/3750100/story.html#ixzz13y4tqoER

 

 

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Alex

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Too bad they could not win based on the facts,  instead of depending on legal loopholes.

 

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Alex

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 From the National Catholic Reporter.

http://ncronline.org/news/accountability/vatican-denies-squelching-coverage-victims%E2%80%99-rally

 

Vatican denies squelching coverage of victims’ rally

 

 

A Vatican spokesperson has confirmed that permission has been denied to film aspects of an Oct. 31 gathering of sex abuse victims in Rome that may occur inside St. Peter’s Square, but insists the ban is standard practice rather than an effort to squelch coverage of the event.

 

The gathering is billed as “Reformation Day,” and organizers plan to launch a petition calling on the United Nations to include the systematic sexual abuse of children as a crime against humanity.

 

Two American survivors of abuse, Bernie McDaid and Gary Bergeron, are the primary organizers of the Oct. 31 event, which aims to bring together victims of sexual abuse from various nations to press the Catholic church for reform. The plan is to assemble outside the grounds of the Vatican, near Castel Sant’Angelo, then process to St. Peter’s Square.

 

Victims may enter the square individually, though they’ve been denied permission to gather as a group on Vatican grounds.

 

On Oct. 26, Bergeron and McDaid issued a press release charging that the Vatican has told media outlets they will not be able to cover anything that happens on Vatican property.

 

The press release asserted that the Vatican is “trying to stop people around the world from joining us in spirit,” saying the attempt to stop filming of whatever happens in the square is “quite frankly, enough.”

 

 

 

 

 

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Church abuse victims call for action

From Aljazeera English language service.

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Toronto-based Novalis publishing has just released Suffer The Children Unto Me by Canadian journalists Michael W. Higgins and Peter Kavanagh. The book examines the sexual abuse crisis in the Canadian Roman Catholic Church and puts it in the context of the problems occurring in the global Church. It also focuses heavily on the media coverage of the Church and whether it was really fair and balanced. It is worth noting that both authors are practicing Catholics and Novalis is a Catholic publishing house. Mr. Kavanagh noted that his personal faith was not an impediment to writing the book since inequity wherever it takes place is something that needs to be addressed. Mr. Higgins said that as a Catholic, writing about the sins of the Church was a “painful experience.” But neither man felt their faith hindered their objectivity. http://life.nationalpost.com/2010/11/01/charles-lewis-an-interview-with-...

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 There was an interesting piece in the Globe and Mail, by Michael Higgins, the forementioned Catholic author of Suffer the Children Unto me.  

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/opinions/opinion/we-need-a-new-catholic-reformation/article1784784/

 

A few highlights.

 

In the past month alone, a child psychiatrist who headed the Belgian Catholic Church’s commission investigating accusations of clerical sexual abuse of minors has called on Pope Benedict XVI to resign, the Chilean Church is reeling from disclosures of hierarchical incompetence in the face of sustained abuse by a revered priest, German Jesuits have begun victim-compensation initiatives, and the Archdiocese of San Diego is releasing thousands of pages of documentation chronicling personnel decisions made by church authorities in relation to allegations and charges. In other words, a month like so many others.

...............
 
 

It’s essential that the church, from office-holders to parishioners, steel themselves for reform. Damage control, legal gamesmanship, moral posturing and institutional denial don’t work. Rooting out the evil that has flourished within us – Pope Benedict’s “filth in the church” – has become a defining feature of the papacy. The universal episcopate understands the Pope’s determination to purify the church, and there are numerous signs that church canonical practice is being adjusted to comply with accepted civil norms. But is this enough?

In a conversation I had at a Jesuit retreat in Massachusetts with a psychiatrist working with the Archdiocese of Boston – a conversation I had a decade ago – he told me that, while he and his youngest son were out hiking in the White Mountains of New Hampshire, they came across a party of cassock-clad junior seminarians, at which sight the psychiatrist opined: “There goes my future workload.” Cynical? The religious order of which these seminarians were members has been the subject of Vatican investigation and the public disgracing of its founder.

...................

More recently, a French priest-hematologist and medical professor who deals clinically and canonically with clerical sex abuse cases told me that, in one diocese he consults for, new cases have emerged involving young priests not long ordained. A new cycle on the horizon, or a blip?

.............
 

To put the horror behind them, Catholics must do more than lament their church. They must reform it.

 
 
InannaWhimsey's picture

InannaWhimsey

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chansen's picture

chansen

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I realize the money laundering accusations are only accusations at this point, but someone should aggregate the actual judgements against different dioceses...tally up the actual judgements against the Catholic Church around the world and figure out how much they owe their victims, and how many of their priests and other officials are in jail or in the courts.

 

Then, I'd like to see this compared to other criminal organizations and companies which have caused harm.  Where does the Catholic Church rank in terms of damage awards and jail time for their officials?  Where would they rank among the Enrons, the BPs, the drug cartels, etc.?

Mely's picture

Mely

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Then there is this:

 


St. Ignatius's picture

St. Ignatius

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Alex could you give me the honest reason why you started this thread.

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RitaTG

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St. Ignatius ...... it seems to me that this thread speaks to the disillusionment and pain felt by many .... and the need to hold leadership accountable.    This is true for all churches and not only the Roman Catholic Church.

I am glad we live in an age when there can be an open look into the heart of such issues and the knowledge is not suppressed as it once was.   I hope we see more of this for all church leadership everywhere.

I have a brother who was also raised Roman Catholic and has two wonderful sons.    Since this issue has come to the forefront and there was also a local priest found to have committed such acts, my brother will no longer take his family to church.    This I find very very sad indeed.    I am not one for painting everyone of a certain group with the same brush however, the Roman Catholic Church needs a good and deep cleansing (and so do many other denominations, in particular, some evangelical ones).   It needs to show accountability and some openness for a change.    The old paradigm of the absolute supremacy of church leadership has fallen.   No longer can control of information be maintained by a wall of "spiritual authority" that cannot be questioned.

Although the tone of the thread shows quite a bit of raw pain expressed in a raw way I do not see it as "Catholic bashing".    This is more of a call to accounting.    And I do hope this happens to many other church leaders as well.   I feel it is time to cleanse and return to a more humble, open and accountable way.    Is this not the role of leadership?

Thank you for your comment St. Ignatius .... I am glad you are here and willing to listen.   I will endeavour to do my best to listen to your point of view as well.

Regards

Rita

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Rita,

perhaps you've misunderstood me.  I was hoping for Alex to reply to my last request.

 

RitaTG wrote:

St. Ignatius ...... it seems to me that this thread speaks to the disillusionment and pain felt by many

Not currently focusing on everyone who is disillusioned just asking a question of the originator of this discussion thread.

 

RitaTG wrote:

.... and the need to hold ledeadership accountable.    This is true for all churches and not only the Roman Catholic Church.

no doubt, and of course I would hope the majority of us posting here are aware of the fact(s),

  • that policies have indeed been put in place for quite awhile now far ahead in fact of secular authorities in the school system etc.
  • that non-clerical, (and non-catholic) experts in the field have been consulted since the early 70's regarding relocation of offenders,
  • that a LARGE majority of accusations are in regards to events which may or may not have occurred some 40 to 50 years ago, and often the accused is already deceased, with no possibility for them to defend their reputation.
  •  

I deliberately use "accusations", since numerous recirculated and well run stories in the press have proved to be false, damaging the reputation and eventual health of defendants who happen to be very holy men indeed like Cardinal Joseph Bernardin, archbishop of Chicago

 

RitaTG wrote:

I am glad we live in an age when there can be an open look into the heart of such issues and the knowledge is not suppressed as it once was.   I hope we see more of this for all church leadership everywhere.

 

and one could also make an argument the Protestant Reformation was the catalyst for the Catholic counter-reformation but reality of the counter-reformation already in existence prior to would not be clearly understood by all without further and unbiased study of historical events.

 

RitaTG wrote:

I have a brother who was also raised Roman Catholic and has two wonderful sons.    Since this issue has come to the forefront and there was also a local priest found to have committed such acts, my brother will no longer take his family to church.    This I find very very sad indeed.   

as do I (find it sad) but this has more to do with your brother and less to do with Church. Possibly other issues are at play that neither of us are privy to.

 

 

RitaTG wrote:

I am not one for painting everyone of a certain group with the same brush.

 

and love you for it, you once asked me if I'd be willing to give you a hug, I would. Hugs!

 

RitaTG wrote:

  It needs to show accountability and some openness for a change.    The old paradigm of the absolute supremacy of church leadership has fallen.   No longer can control of information be maintained by a wall of "spiritual authority" that cannot be questioned.

think you're repeating yourself here but would like to point out to the wider non-Catholic audience, there is absolutely no Church doctrine stipulating priests, bishops or popes for that matter, are automatically classified as sinless beings.  What is done in the dark will always be brought into the light.

 

RitaTG wrote:

Although the tone of the thread shows quite a bit of raw pain expressed in a raw way I do not see it as "Catholic bashing".  This is more of a call to accounting.  And I do hope this happens to many other church leaders as well.   I feel it is time to cleanse and return to a more humble, open and accountable way.    Is this not the role of leadership?

 

I would say the perception of, "a call to accounting (think you mean accountability)" has been largely shaped by a news media with it's own agenda which is often not concerned with case by case facts as it offers up the entrails of each priest in digestable bits and bites.

 

RitaTG wrote:

Thank you for your comment St. Ignatius .... I am glad you are here and willing to listen.   I will endeavour to do my best to listen to your point of view as well.

Regards

Rita

 

Rita always a pleasure.

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Ignatius - this thread is over 8 months old.  Alex doesn't post here much any more, so I doubt he will see your request.  He already answered it, however, in his opening paragraph.  Maybe you could explain why you don't believe him?

"We are living in my opinion, in a time when the unthinkable will happen. This is a place where I  can discuss it as it happens. It’s kind of hard to do so at school.  I intend to  put links, and news clippings from the web that I find in this forum.   We can speculate and share news, but lets make sure we separate the church, from the corruption. I would like to talk about and share information to enable us to understand the issues, and prepare us, as like I, many  live in communities with large Roman Catholic communities.  This is going to affect us all. It is going to affect how people see God."
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EasternOrthodox

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Rita,

 

You have such a kind way with your words.   thanks for your thoughtful comments.

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Oh I read the intro remarks RevMatt but you've truncated them and this is partly why I ask Alex to reclarify this reasoning.  Obviously I have also examined his profile but in seeking him to expand on this initial remarks I'm not jumping to any conclusion yet. 

By the way, Alex posted to this thread back in November, he is still available for comment

 

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St. Ignatius wrote:

Alex could you give me the honest reason why you started this thread.

This is in my belief a time of historic change. The Roman Catholic Church is the largest religion in the world. What happens in that church reflects how people see religion in general, and not just the Roman Catholic Church.

As a UCC Christian who attended Roman Catholic High School, was partnered to two Roman Catholics, and who currently is studying philosophy at a Roman Catholic University, I find it a fascinating story.

I wanted a place to talk about what is happening in a political, social, and theological context with non Catholics. Among Catholics I know the discussion is very much based upon how this story should affected the struggle between Catholic conservatives, and catholic revisionists inside the church.

I think the story has much broader implications for society and other religions. It is obvious to me that sociopaths exist in all religions, and as well they have they well meaning but wrong allies who do not get it. We still are doing horrible things to people, which often overshadow any good that we do.

In the UCC we had a good example of that at the last General Council. They apologiesed for the racism that caused the UCC to support the genocide against First Nations, and the role of the UCC in running residential schools.

However just after the apology the same council voted against including people with disabilities and others in the church. The reason they gave was to protect our system of governance.

However this ignored the fact that as a result of residential schools, First Nations have twice the rate of physical disabilities, with over 38% of First Nations people using adaptive devices like chairs and canes to participate in life. The rate of neurological, developmental, and mental disabilities is also much higher among First Nations. First Nations make up 2to 3% of canadians, yet 20. % of people with HiV are First Nations. This is all do to the genocide, residential schools, and the abuse children suffered as part of this.

So while the UCC says it's Ok now to be Indian, we are still telling them they are unacceptable to us because they are disabled. While we ignore the fact that so many of them are disabled because of what we did to them and their parents, and grandparents, in an attempt at genocide.

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T. Rex

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wrong thread.

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Alex

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http://ncronline.org/news/accountability/truth-and-call-renewal From the National Catholic Reporter

Truth and a call to renewal

Maciel embodied the arrogance, sense of privilege, lack of accountability and rot in the ranks of church leadership of which the abuse crisis is merely the most glaring symptom. As Jason Berry writes, who controls the telling of the history of Maciel and his order is important. The overwhelming struggle of sex abuse victims to get their story out is but one indication of how difficult it has been for the church to acknowledge the truth of this ugly reality. Some contend that John Paul was simply ill served by those around him, kept in the dark about what was occurring in the sex abuse crisis worldwide and about the charges against Maciel specifically. If that were the case, then John Paul, for all of his international bravado and accomplishments, was unbelievably detached from what was occurring inside his church and blind to the reports being filed in his dicasteries.

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Sorry for the lack of formatting in my messages. I have a blood clot in my leg, which makes it difficult to sit. As well while recovering from my clot, my back went out, which continues to make it difficult to sit. As a result I am using my IPad, since I do not have to sit to use it. However for some reason Wondercafes rich text editor will not work with my IPad. The plain text editor will, but I am unable to use any of the formatting features in the plain text editor. This is also the reason I have not been around for the last while on WC. You can find me on Facebook, and Twitter, (@accessiblechurc). I should write the admin. I believe the same bug that does not let me use the rich text editor on WC, is the same bug that disables the spell checker on WCs rich text editor, but allows it to be used on the simple text editor.

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This thread is nothing short of Catholic bashing. 

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If that is what you believe why do you not back it up by explaining why it is Catholic bashing.

See the following link from a Catholic Newspaper that explains how accusations of anti- catholic prejudice has been used silenced victims. http://ncronline.org/news/accountability/george-weigel-whitewashing-history

Accusations of such are just as credible as accusation of racism, or homophobia against people when it is not backed up by reasons.

What are your reasons for saying it is Catholic bashing.

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If that is what you believe why do you not back it up by explaining why it is Catholic bashing.

See the following link from a Catholic Newspaper that explains how accusations of anti- catholic prejudice has been used silenced victims. http://ncronline.org/news/accountability/george-weigel-whitewashing-history

Accusations of such are just as credible as accusation of racism, or homophobia against people when it is not backed up by reasons.

What are your reasons for saying it is Catholic bashing.

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T.Rex/retirerev, your posts are beyond bitter, less than juvenile, and the thought of you being an archaeologist, who are usually considered to be very methodical and thoughtful people, doesn't work.  At best, I can picture you with a metal detector in hand, yelling at kids on a beach.

 

Winter must pass very slowly for you.

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chansen wrote:

T.Rex/retirerev, your posts are beyond bitter, less than juvenile, and the thought of you being an archaeologist, who are usually considered to be very methodical and thoughtful people, doesn't work.  At best, I can picture you with a metal detector in hand, yelling at kids on a beach.

 

Winter must pass very slowly for you.

Chansen/greatestIam/Alex's clone, given that your primary motive on WC is to be a glorified 'shit disturber', and the thought of you being a structural engineer (obviously not a very busy one) who are used to ensuring well constructed buildings and are results oriented, doesn't work.  At least, I can picture you strutting down the beach knocking down kid's sand castles saying they're out of standard while kicking sand in their faces, pouting because theirs were better than yours. 

Winter passes just fine for me.  I have idiots to entertain me.

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And now for some worthwhile input on this thread.  World Junior Hockey  Canada 4; Team USA 1.  BRING ON THE RUSSIANS.  (How's THAT for bitter, chansey, dude?)

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T. Rex wrote:

I don't have to prove anything to you.  Who made you supreme ruler? bully.  Troll on, big troll......  Stalk away!!

No you do not have to prove anything to me, but you are suppose to follow the guidelines. You seem to break all of them, sock puppet of many names. All I asked of you was to explain your reasoning for your accusations, but instead you just call people names.

See specially guideline number. 3 concerning what is disruptive behavior.

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Alex wrote:
If that is what you believe why do you not back it up by explaining why it is Catholic bashing. See the following link from a Catholic Newspaper that explains how accusations of anti- catholic prejudice has been used silenced victims. http://ncronline.org/news/accountability/george-weigel-whitewashing-history Accusations of such are just as credible as accusation of racism, or homophobia against people when it is not backed up by reasons. What are your reasons for saying it is Catholic bashing.

 

Although I was initially attracted to this thread since it seemed highly critical of Catholics while at the same time others were calling me a bigot for writing bad stuff about Muslims, I think that under the circumstances, Alex has a right to be angry.   The Christian stance on homosexuality has been atrocious.  

 

Along with various other religions, I might add.   I find it discouraging that--perhaps for once and once only--the quarrelsome clerics of Jerusalem (Muslim, Jewish and Christian) were in total agreement on one thing:  no gay pride parade in the city!

 

The gays had to settle for Tel Aviv.

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I am not angry at Catholics or the Catholic Church. What I find problematic are the actions of people who bury there heads in the sand and evil is permitted to continue. I have focused mostly on stories concerning the actions of certain people in the government of the church. They are not the same as the church. The church includes all the believers.many of whom are speaking out for change and holding the Bishops accountable for their inaction.

At times certain posts show how the Pope has acted much more ethically than other Bishops, however his actions still leads to many questions, that Catholics and others who are concerned about the welfare of children and the Roman Catholic Church specifically and the whole Christian Church in general.

As the story has progressed simce the beginning it appears that Ben has not been involved in actively covering up sexual abuse of children, but almost as bad he has a history of ignoring it. Also While he and others are quick to punish Nuns and Theology professors, for having different theologies than his, he has in his past job and current job not taken action against sexual predators , and those involved in covering up the actions of predators in the prompt manner that he has with Nuns.

There are diverse reasons for this, but the sexual abuse scandal will forever mark his papacy. If he does not resign over this, it has stopped him from pushing his agenda in the manner he would have.

He has fallen.

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If one was to look fora good story, they would start last New years, and ended it last July, when it reached it's climax with the raids in Belgian, the Supreme Court decision in the US, and the NYT article that had several archbishops, and bishops, speak out about Pope Ben inaction before he was Pope and was responsible for the dossier on sexual predators.

However it has not ended. We are still waiting to se what will happen to the archbishop of Australia and other bishops, who have made Ben look bad. Aswell we continue to await further court decisions, and police actions globally.

From Belgian

Belgians 'scandalized' by archbishop's remarks
http://ncronline.org/news/accountability/belgians-scandalized-archbishop...

Archbishop Andre-Joseph Leonard of Mechelen-Brussels, Belgium (CNS)
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OXFORD, England -- A Belgian journalist who serves as spokesman for the nation's cardinal said Catholics in his country were "scandalized" by an archbishop's testimony to a parliamentary commission on sexual abuse by priests. See NCR's earlier story: Archbishop: church not obligated to compensate abuse victims.
In response to questions by commission members, Archbishop Andre-Joseph Leonard of Mechelen-Brussels, president of the Belgian bishops' conference, said he feared the consequences of compensating victims, because payments could also be demanded for "unhappy children born via artificial insemination" or facing the "psychological impact" of being raised by same-sex couples.
He also said he favored a "solidarity fund" for abuse victims when courts were unable to establish "direct responsibility" by institutions and said the church would contribute to the fund "in the same way that it already intervenes for victims of natural catastrophes or for the poor."
Toon Osaer, editor of the church's Kerk en Leven weekly and spokesman for Cardinal Godfried Danneels, Archbishop Leonard's predecessor, said all nine serving bishops had been asked to testify to the commission, and "each has done in his own name. Archbishop Leonard wasn't representing the Belgian church at that moment, only himself."
However, he added that the "vast majority of people" had been "quite scandalized" by the archbishop's manner of speaking, especially in response to questions at the Dec. 22 hearing.
He told Catholic News Service Dec. 30 that Archbishop Leonard had been concerned that victims should seek initial redress via the justice system before expecting payments from the church.
"His point was that the people who committed offenses should first be investigated and brought to court -- only then, if the courts won't provide satisfactory compensation, should the church see what it can do for them," Osaer said.
"As in all such cases, some people have supported and some have opposed him, so the bishops will be meeting [this] week to discuss further steps, as well as to set out the agenda for a new church center for recognition, healing and reconciliation," he said.
Osaer said some critical reactions to Archbishop Leonard's remarks were political.
"There's a political game being played out in this commission, which has to submit its findings by April 2011," the editor said. "It's too early to say whether what the archbishop had said will have a direct practical impact on the church's life here."
Belgium's Catholic Church, like the church in other European countries, has been rocked by allegations of abuse throughout 2010.
In a May pastoral letter, the bishops' conference asked forgiveness from victims and promised to curb further abuse, after Bishop Roger Vangheluwe of Brugge resigned following an admission he had molested his nephew.
In June, police investigating alleged clergy sexual abuse raided the bishops' conference headquarters and searched Cardinal Danneels' residence. Bishops gathered for a scheduled meeting at the headquarters had been surprised by police, who then confiscated documents and cell phones of all present.
In September, the conference pledged to "learn lessons" from a report drawn up by a commission under Peter Adriaenssens. The report recounted 475 cases of molestation in Catholic dioceses, religious orders and boarding schools, including 13 cases in which victims had committed suicide.
Belgian newspapers said that, in September alone, Justice Ministry officials had received more than 100 new accusations of abuse by Catholic priests, mostly involving male victims now ages 23-82.
In a midnight Mass homily on Christmas, Archbishop Leonard said that "abuses of power and acts of violence" by priests were "particularly sordid," and he was grateful to victims who "had the courage" to come forward.
"The victims can and must always address themselves as a matter of priority to the civil justice system," the archbishop added. "For its part, the church will continue the mission proper to it -- of knowing how to listen, within its pastoral plan, to persons who wish to be heard in their suffering, but without ever deterring them from reporting to civil justice."

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The theology of many conservative Catholic is not directly homophobic, although many are, just as many Protestants, and others are. There position on homosexuality is tied into a certain understanding of Natural Law, which comes from a time (13th century) that is clearly sexist, however the same understanding of Natural Law also lays a heavy burden, on all people, in regards to marriage, birth control. It is something most Catholics reject, as is seen by the wide spread use of birth control, and support for remarriage of those who are divorced.

Protestants often confuse the conservative Roman Churches stance on homosexuality with the stance of conservative Protestants, and conservative orthodox. These stances are homophobic. Conservative Protestants selectively adopt bible passages which they understand to prohibit relationships between gay men and lesbians. While ignoring biblical injunctions against divorce and things like masturbation.

Everyone suffers from these theologies, but Those that pay the biggest price for these conservative theologies are women, and even more so children.

Children because they end up being abused. Especially the inter sex, who are neither but also both sexes. We will look back on this time and wonder why we were so barbaric, allowing the mutilation and castration of so many, as well as the sexual abuse they suffer along with other children because of our unhealthy views on sex, sexual idenity. So remember it about children.

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I admit to being much less knowledgeable that you about the history of the Church and homosexuality.  I basically know little more than I have read in the news (but that is pretty hair-raising itself).

 

In my opinion, literal interpretations of the the Bible are just not feasible.  They haven't been since Darwin.   Many Christians would violently disagree with me, but a substantial number would agree.

 

The Catholics have boxed themselves into the corner with the Papal Infallibility ruling--was that not in the late 19th century?   I am no expert on the subject, I freely admit.   But it is making it very hard for them to admit that a prior policy of theirs is just plain wrong.

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T. Rex wrote:

This thread is nothing short of Catholic bashing. 

 

LOL!!

 

really??  i'm a catholic, i don't feel bashed at all.

 

obviously you haven't bothered to check before throwing down some blanket statement.

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Catholic opposition to homosexuality comes from Natural law. This is from Aristotle, and was adapted to Catholism, ( and Anglicanism) ( I do not know about Orthodox) by Thomas Aquinas in the thirteenth century. It was adopted by the Roman Catholic church after his death, and replaced many of the doctrine that had been influenced by Plato/Augustine. Protestant rejected Natural law.

Some Catholics use the Bible to support their rejection of same sex relationships, but they use the Bible only as a basis to support the philosophy of Aquinas.

This same philosophy is also why Catholics reflect birth control, and has an extremely large role to play in all Roman Catholic ethics.

Of course today there is a wide variety of thought on Natural Law, some supports homosexuality and birth control.

The Pope is not, nor has claimed infallibility on Natural Law or matters concerning sex. I think the only subject this century that he has claimed infailabilty on was something to do with the virginity of Mary, mother of Jesus. Thus papal infallibility does not stand in the way. Anyways many Catholics reject the idea that the Pope can be infallible on any subject. This is a relatively recent dogma which has not gained wide acceptance.

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Alex wrote:

I am not angry at Catholics or the Catholic Church. What I find problematic are the actions of people who bury there heads in the sand and evil is permitted to continue.

 

Stop, that is not how it comes across and that was why I asked you to expand on your original reasoning to post up this thread.  Frankly, when you start calling the Pope, Ben or Benny you only begin to lose creditability.  (this was not the only thing I noticed so don't give a knee-jerk response)

 

Alex wrote:

I have focused mostly on stories concerning the actions of certain people in the government of the church. They are not the same as the church.

from questionable sources and how exactly are "they" (Church hierarchy) not the same? Do you personally know a majority of them? 

 

The Key you seem to miss

The Church you are pounding away at teaches a mark of Oneness, you know the oneness many non-Catholics affirm when reciting the ancient Christian creeds. 

 

The Church is not merely a body of the so-called "elect".  This idea is founded within certain fundamentalist/ Protestant evangelical movements.  The Church (Catholic) teaches it is like a family which contains both sinners and saints.  The challenge is understanding it is by the authority of Jesus, who will at the end of time separate out the wheat from the weeds, the goats from the sheep, not you not I, not the clergy to the laity or the laity to clergy. 

 

Your argumentation and ultimately your entire position vilifies good men as well as bad and from where I stand that is a serious misjustice.  To condemn all clergy is not better then denial of wrongs done and to assume anyone who supports the Church is in denial is a pretty simplistic and naive way of looking at things

 

 

Alex wrote:

There are diverse reasons for this, but the sexual abuse scandal will forever mark his papacy. If he does not resign over this, it has stopped him from pushing his agenda in the manner he would have. He has fallen.

 

No, more correctly, the Church will always have it's detractors and ironically that is how I know I am in the right place, right community, right spiritual community. The "Agenda" here is more correctly yours and it is beginning to lose a claim to justice when it continues to beat a dead horse, turning a blind eye to more current cases of abuse in the broader scope of our secular world. 

 

The majority of your evidence, accusations, finger pointing, comes from events that originate 40-50 years ago.  Claims of cover up are far over done and inflated.  And you have yet to mention the demographics of the sexual orientation of the accused and one wonders why?

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St. Ignatius wrote:

Stop, that is not how it comes across and that was why I asked you to expand on your original reasoning to post up this thread.  Frankly, when you start calling the Pope, Ben or Benny you only begin to lose creditability.  (this was not the only thing I noticed so don't give a knee-jerk response)

 

 

well, how it 'comes across' to you is obviously not what he meant.

 

so adjust accordingly and quit blaming him for your misperceptions.

 

and why on earth is referring to the pope as 'ben or benny' a reason for loss of credibility??

 

St. Ignatius wrote:

 

The Key you seem to miss

The Church you are pounding away at teaches a mark of Oneness, you know the oneness many non-Catholics affirm when reciting the ancient Christian creeds. 

 

The Church is not merely a body of the so-called "elect".  This idea is founded within certain fundamentalist/ Protestant evangelical movements.  The Church (Catholic) teaches it is like a family which contains both sinners and saints.  The challenge is understanding it is by the authority of Jesus, who will at the end of time separate out the wheat from the weeds, the goats from the sheep, not you not I, not the clergy to the laity or the laity to clergy. 

 

so, you are suggesting what, then??  that nobody can stand up and say that some priest molesting a kid is wrong, because jesus is going to do that for us in the end??

 

what SHOULD we be doing in the meantime, then??

 

St. Ignatius wrote:

Your argumentation and ultimately your entire position vilifies good men as well as bad and from where I stand that is a serious misjustice.  To condemn all clergy is not better then denial of wrongs done and to assume anyone who supports the Church is in denial is a pretty simplistic and naive way of looking at things

 

 

this is the point that YOU are failing to see, ignatius...

 

it is the vatican itself which is villifying good men as well as bad, not alex.  when the people who are supposed to be protecting those kids decide not to punish the ones who abuse them, they are villifying the good priests.

 

St. Ignatius wrote:

 

No, more correctly, the Church will always have it's detractors and ironically that is how I know I am in the right place, right community, right spiritual community. The "Agenda" here is more correctly yours and it is beginning to lose a claim to justice when it continues to beat a dead horse, turning a blind eye to more current cases of abuse in the broader scope of our secular world. 

 

so, are you suggesting that the church should not have to face up to the sins of its past, simply because children are also molested 'in the broader scope of our secular world'??

 

why would you even think that??

 

 

St. Ignatius wrote:

The majority of your evidence, accusations, finger pointing, comes from events that originate 40-50 years ago.  Claims of cover up are far over done and inflated. 

 

LOL!!  so, are you saying that there is some kind of christian law that states that just because a priest molested a kid 50 years ago, he shouldn't have to be punished for it because it happened 50 years ago?!?!?  what kind of a rationale is THAT???

 

St. Ignatius wrote:

And you have yet to mention the demographics of the sexual orientation of the accused and one wonders why?

 

now i am very curious as to WHY the sexual orientation of 'the accused' has ANYTHING to do with this???

 

please enlighten me.

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sighsnootles wrote:

now i am very curious as to WHY the sexual orientation of 'the accused' has ANYTHING to do with this???

 

please enlighten me.

 

because it plays a big part in this prolonged drudgery.  You could say it is a story of not having your cake and eating it to.  The Church often accused in other threads and discussion for being "anti-gay" or "homophobic" when in fact the Church has not closed it's doors to these persons at all. The orientation of the guilty help to provide better insight.  Further, you discover many of the cases are not classified properly.  don't take my word, google the topic with keywords

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sighsnootles

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St. Ignatius wrote:

The orientation of the guilty help to provide better insight. 

 

how so??

 

 

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Alex

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St. Ignatius wrote:

Alex wrote:

I am not angry at Catholics or the Catholic Church. What I find problematic are the actions of people who bury there heads in the sand and evil is permitted to continue.

 

Stop, that is not how it comes across and that was why I asked you to expand on your original reasoning to post up this thread.  Frankly, when you start calling the Pope, Ben or Benny you only begin to lose creditability.  (this was not the only thing I noticed so don't give a knee-jerk response)

 

Alex wrote:

What you say about calling the Poe Ben is true. That and other things that I have used are an attempt to keep things interesting an in non church language language. I admit that they make me seem less serious, but I am trying techniques that have been used elsewhere on other subjects. It might not work well. I am a bricklayer who after stopping work a few years ago decided to study philosophy to expand my mind. It was always something that I was interested in, but due to different factors, including a serious learning/develepmental disability (PDD-NOS, which is an Autism Spectrum Disorder) had never succeed in school.)

The barriers created by this disorder not only affected my learning and social skills, but also directly impacts on the way I use language. I did not start speaking until age 6, and still have problems using language. I have only really begin to write since starting university 5 years ago, and I still face certain barriers with language at time. I am intelligent, but my language skills do not always reflect the same level of understanding as my thoughts.

  The philosopher Wittgenstein likely had the same or similar disability according to stories about him, and as well having it would have been key in developing his philosophy of language.  I understand his philsophy to be not only philosophy, but also of the thoughts and use of language of high functioning autism.

 

So I can understand why many will read different things into my writing than what I intended.

 

 

 

I have focused mostly on stories concerning the actions of certain people in the government of the church. They are not the same as the church.

from questionable sources and how exactly are "they" (Church hierarchy) not the same? Do you personally know a majority of them? 

[/quote]

Alex wrote:

I am using as sources relatively well know Newspapers from the around the world, as well as several Roman Catholic newspapers and magazines.  But I will admit that all news sources that i use have both bias and other limitations. this is not meant to be a University paper, nor a book. I am trying to use this stories to lay out a narrative of  historical importance, as it happens in an accessible way, in one discussion thread. 

 

 

 

The Key you seem to miss

The Church you are pounding away at teaches a mark of Oneness, you know the oneness many non-Catholics affirm when reciting the ancient Christian creeds. 

 

The Church is not merely a body of the so-called "elect".  This idea is founded within certain fundamentalist/ Protestant evangelical movements.  The Church (Catholic) teaches it is like a family which contains both sinners and saints.  The challenge is understanding it is by the authority of Jesus, who will at the end of time separate out the wheat from the weeds, the goats from the sheep, not you not I, not the clergy to the laity or the laity to clergy. 

 [/quote]

Alex wrote:

An excellant point a good contribution to the topic. This is the type of thing I was hoping others would add to this disscussion.

 

 

 

Your argumentation and ultimately your entire position vilifies good men as well as bad and from where I stand that is a serious misjustice.  To condemn all clergy is not better then denial of wrongs done and to assume anyone who supports the Church is in denial is a pretty simplistic and naive way of looking at things

 [/quote]

Alex wrote:

I agree with your point. It was not my intention to do so. I could have stated this or posted a link to an article that did so. I was not intending to vilify all clergy, or all Priest, or all Bishops. I should be saying that more often.

 

 One of the ways that sociopaths divide society is that there actions cause people to mistrust the innocent, the good, and the holy.  It was not my intention to do so. However the actions of a minority of Priest and Bishops who have sexually abused children and teens under their authority has spread mistrust and suspicion on the majority of clergy, and even those who are the most holy and saintly.  IMHO those who serially rape and molest, those with less power, are more than just sinners, but true sociopaths, without a capacity to care for anything but themselves, or care or love others.

 

We have a problem in business, government, politics and the church with sociopaths (in this case the child sex abuser destroying the good that comes from these institutions and destroying trust and faith.

 

While many are debating how so much evil has been done in the church, for which I do not know. I would like to add my belief that sociopaths are attracted to all religions, more than they are to other sectors of society. This is because I beleive they wish to exploit the good people in the church who have done very good things, and use the good people's reputations to conceal there evil.  Also I believe they are able more likely to get away with what they do because the majority of church people, including Roman Catholic priests are more honest and loving than most, and thus are less like to suspect people of extreme evil and will dismiss the signs.   I think that John Paul 2 is a likely example of someone with so much love and good intentions in his heart that he was unable to see evil among those he knew. So the social paths like the head of the Legion of Christ, Marcial Maciel exploited JP2 blindness to his nature caused by his loving and honest nature.

 

 

 

Alex wrote:

There are diverse reasons for this, but the sexual abuse scandal will forever mark his papacy. If he does not resign over this, it has stopped him from pushing his agenda in the manner he would have. He has fallen.

 

No, more correctly, the Church will always have it's detractors and ironically that is how I know I am in the right place, right community, right spiritual community. The "Agenda" here is more correctly yours and it is beginning to lose a claim to justice when it continues to beat a dead horse, turning a blind eye to more current cases of abuse in the broader scope of our secular world. 

 

The majority of your evidence, accusations, finger pointing, comes from events that originate 40-50 years ago.  Claims of cover up are far over done and inflated.  And you have yet to mention the demographics of the sexual orientation of the accused and one wonders why?

[/quote]

 

My only Agenda is to create some discussion around the issue. There has been a coverup. Just look at the Legion of Christ.  I do not know how small or big the coverup is, and in actuallity this is likely a systematic thing, so instead of there being one big coverup, there is likely many smaller ones happening in every country.

 

the reason i wish to create a discusion, is to promote awareness and change. Sociopathy is likely best dealt with based on a similar model similar to the social model of diisability, The social model of disability contends that society creates disability by holding down those with differences or disabilities. I would contend that the opposite is true for sociopaths and sociopathic behaviour, society (the good and the bad) raises up an empowers them and their behaviour. They are charming and forceful. (it is easier to be both if all you care about is your own base needs) look at many definations of good leaders, they are similar to good leaders. Also we want to believe the lies they tell us. We empower them when we believe there are simple answers to solving political problem and vote for them, or when we believe they can make money and put them in charge of business. (Enron, Worldcom, Medoff,)

 

We believed the Legion of Christ founder when he said he had a model of renewing the church, or Hitler when he said he could fix things. 

 

to conteract sociopaths we need to look closer at things, we need to talk about it, to further increase our ability to discern what is false and what is true. It is difficult to to do so. We are all limited, and as well sociopaths will try to divert us. (I am not talking about the majority) there are well meaning people like me who have real concerns, but it is normal and correct that you have your questions about me. In addition to my limitations, just as child abusers cast doubt upon the good and the holy, there will be sociopaths outside the church who will use this not to promote the general good, but to tear down the Roman Catholic Church and all people, religions and institutions working for the good.

 

it is my beleif that God working through the Roman Catholic Church, as the largest religion in the world,  is the last best hope for humanity and the earth. IMHO, materialism, and the ensuing degradation of humanity and the earth is our biggest threat to life. The Catholic Church, which has its bad and good,  has been the largest and most powerful force that humanity has against this.  At this time in history we need it to be healthy and strong, grace only goes so far, people need to change too. Government and business has shown its complete inability to create the change needed to stop the destruction of the earth and its people. Only religion has the ability to create the change need to save us now. To change we need both the theology and the rituals.

 

It is worrisome that the largest religion in the world is being diverted from its task at this critical time. However I have faith that ultimately it will succeed and create the change need to change the hearts and minds of humanity, along with other religions to save the earth.

 

I hope I have not rambled and confused things, but have clarified my intentions and beliefs.

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St Ignatius .... you mentioned something about the sexual orientation of the gulity....

Would you elaborate your viewpoint in detail please????

Now as for the Roman Catholic Church having not closed its doors to those that are gay.    There I respectfully disagree.    Now to be clear .... yes .... gay persons are allowed through the doors of the church and are allowed to sit in the pews.   The physical door may have been open but I will tell you from first hand experience that the door of fellowship is not.    For the moment I will lump myself in with the gays.   WE are not allowed to receive communion and WE are not allowed to participate in any other ministry.   All we are allowed to do is sit there.    Please allow me to approach this also from a gender identity point of view.    A good friend of mine was told to leave the church (Roman Catholic Church) and to not come back.   

Now to be fair .... this exclusion of those of us that are different is also practiced by most other conservative evangelical denominations.     I had been part of the Pentecostal denomination for many years.    When I told them about me the exact same sort of exclusion happened to me.     I could attend and sit in a pew but nothing more.    To me ..... that is a closed door.     I did not leave my church ....my church left me.

Now ...for a moment .... may we first hear your viewpoint regarding sexual orientation of the guilty before we discuss the exclusion issues?  

Do you feel that a person that is gay is more likely to be a pedophile?

Thank you for answering difficult questions....

Hugs

Rita

sighsnootles's picture

sighsnootles

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rita, you are such a wonderful person... you are so gentle and honourable in your discussions.

 

my hat is off to you this morning!!

Jim Kenney's picture

Jim Kenney

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St. Ignatius, you seem to be operating in a very defensive state of mind that twists what others are posting to read into them attacks on the Catholic church in the world at large.  You seem to think that, because many of the complaints are from 40 or 5 years ago that they are not currently relevant.  Many of these old complaints were first made 40 or 50 years ago and the church hierarchy refused to deal with them then.  Non-Roman Catholics, like myself, see a church leadership that is reluctant to walk their own talk.  I participated for a few years in a Catholic couples group where I learned about the disconnect between the church hierarchy and its members in local congregations.  I have a great deal of respect for many Roman Catholics and admire and respect many of the priests I have worked with in ecumenical settings.  I don't have much respect for leaders that put the institution and their power ahead of Jesus and his ministry for the world.  Your current pope has taken some brave, worthwhile stands on some issues, but still does not seem to understand or have the courage to take real action on clergy abuse issues.  I wonder if you have an explanation or justification for the actions of the Inquisition or papal promotion of the Crusades?

AbrahamMartin's picture

AbrahamMartin (not verified)

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With or without the papacy, Roman Catholicism will survive and continue on, however perhaps in a different form of government.  As a life-time Roman Catholic, I can identify a number of strengths the RC church can depend on to keep it active and thriving.
First, Roman Catholicism has a strong teaching on the Right to Life.                               
Catholicism believes in respect for the unborn child, good pre-natal care and maternity leave. Catholicism believes in care for the sick, weak and elderly. Catholicism teaches that everyone has the right to a life that is dignified, with decent work, shelter, water, nutritional food, education and health care.
Second, Roman Catholicism has a strong human rights record.
(a) Catholicism has been at the forefront of free (or affordable) hospitals, clinics, schools and self-help programs in developing countries.
(b) Catholicism has many dedicated priests, religious and lay folk working in poor nations, completely free of charge.
(c) Since Pope Leo XIII in 1896 Catholicism has officially defended the rights of workers to form unions and was very active in the US civil rights movement in the 1960s.
(d) Although criticized for its stand on same-sex activity, in many countries the Catholic Church established care centres for HIV/AIDS victims before civil authorities.
Third, Roman Catholicism has a rich spiritual tradition.
 
Some of the greatest spiritual figures in history have come from Catholicism, and their writings continue to inspire, challenge and comfort people (Catholic and non-Catholic) on their journey with God.
Fourth, Roman Catholicism also has clear teaching.
(a)    People know what the Catholic Church teaches.
(b)   It is consistent in its teaching.
(c)    This is a sign of confidence in a world where teachings vary within some churches.
(d) It is a moral anchor in a society where people equate opinion with fact.

A balance between reason, tradition and scripture (sometimes called the 'three legged stool') can continue to guide the RC church into the future.  In the past, the system and the people 'assumed' their candidates for the priesthood were properly motivated.  A tightening of the recruitment process could lessen the likelihood of these tragedies.  Remember, other church bodies face the same issues.  Perhaps its time for the church, as a whole, to be more circumspect about their selection process.

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