Oh, that's your line. You're sitting there with your hint sheet on how to write a letter for CJC. Or are you, perhaps, a puppet of pf B/Nai Brith or for the American-Israel lobby?

Israelis advocate murder, too. And have done it on quite a grand scale. That goes back to the terrorist murders of British and Palestinians in the 1940s. I remember standing in the office in Montreal of a man who was murdered by Israeli intelligence. It has engaged in murder for decades, and was a big help to the white government of South Africa, and to the CIA in Guatemala.

Anyway, we now know what you're about. Give my regards to=all your friends working for the cause.

Rather than recommending a doctor as the solution for an historical problem, my recommendation BFT is education  ... for you BFT.  Pick up a history book BFT.  Almost any serious history will show you graeme is correct.  Where do you find them?  Look for the building in your town that has the sign with the letters L-I-B-R-A-R-Y on it.  The people there will help you find the book.  But once they do Brian you have to take it home and read it and understand it.  You can't just cut and paste it and then send it out in hyperspace on the net.  You better hurry though Brian, I hear the "great unwashed" (and unread)  on the political right is pushing for municipalities to start closing the libraries so it is possible that you could remain ignorant for the rest of your life unless you get off your ass and muster an intellectual effort now.

BLT - Have you read the document?  Your quotes may be out of context?  I have not read the document and until I do I withhold my judgement.

However the quotes you give are troubling - I know that The United Church of Canada does not endorse terrorism  and antisemitism.  It is hard to have criticism of some of Israel's actions and also the actions of  some of the Palestine's - both deserve critical analysis - but often to do so and to point out the two state solution runs in charges of antisemitism. 

The two state solution is seen by many in Israel a highly desirable. As matters stand, allowing Palestinians to be Israeli citizens means that Jews will be a minority in the not too distant future. At that point, Israel will have to go for an even more obvious apartheid.

The intent of Israel - the reason for it from the start - was to create a h omeland for Jews. But to do that, you need a definition of Jew. In the eyes of those who control Israel (essentially the minority parties), that means you need a religious and a racial definition of Jew. There is already quite a battle of this, as some Jews have been denied citizenship because they aren't orthodox enough. And some, thouogh observant Jews, are of the wrong race. (They have, in course, invented a Jewish race = just as Hitler invented an Aryan one.

A dumping ground for Palestinians would solve the problem caused by their birth rate.

The catch is it would also put Palestine in a position to lay charges for war crimes at The Hague. It would also give Palestine legal access to its own coast. Actually, Israel already transgresses that right - and it probably would not change..

Okay, wanted to take a break from WC...but I just had a peek, it's a bad habit.  I have a hard time pulling myself away.

I am not going to get into this issue because I do not know enough. I just wanted to say that  the thread title alarmed me.

I am editing my post  to make sure it's clear.  I am not  following this debate at all. I am not well educated about the issues above and do not want to go there. I would like to request that people consider not using inflammatory language in their post titles even if they feel they have points to make. No fruitful discussion or solution will come out of it. People reading may just get upset and defensive and then there's a whole lot of unwinding that needs to be done before reasonable discussion takes place.  My opinion.

I'm signing off again.

.

Quoted directly from ....

Our Story
Sabeel Purpose Statement

Sabeel is an ecumenical grassroots liberation theology movement among Palestinian Christians. Inspired by the life and teaching of Jesus Christ, this liberation theology seeks to deepen the faith of Palestinian Christians, to promote unity among them toward social action. Sabeel strives to develop a spirituality based on love, justice, peace, nonviolence, liberation and reconciliation for the different national and faith communities. The word "Sabeel" is Arabic for 'the way' and also a 'channel' or 'spring' of life-giving water.

[...]

In recent years, International Friends of Sabeel chapters have been founded in Australia, Scandinavia, the United Kingdom, Ireland, Canada, and the United States. International Friends of Sabeel Chapters provide support for Sabeel's work in advocacy, education, and nonviolent resistance to the Israeli occupation.
 

******************************

Perhaps instead of telling others what they think, you could try listening to what they say.

LB

----------------------------

I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.

      Robert McCloskey

trying to use a new pc. not working very well, actually an old Mac my daughter gave me.

I know nothing about this document but as was discussed on another thread to do with the Roman Catholic Church, there was general agreement that the churches support each other. Or at least, do not beat each other up in public. I suspect the same is true here. Like when World Council of Churches dropped Soviet Union from a complaint about freedom of religion in 1950's due to Russian Orthodox complaints (the representatives would later turn out to be KGB agents). For decades there was 2 Russian orthodox churches, one in Russia, one outside. They have mostly got back together just very recently.

I don't like the way this pc works... or is it Firefox? it won't let type anything unless I go to "source" which drops all formatting

Yeah, you just can't trust them Quakers. Darn pacifists.

Or this group....

Courage to Refuse

The following is quoted directly from their website....

"Courage to Refuse is a movement that has grown out of what the media referred to as The Combatants’ Letter – a letter which was first published on January 2002 and was since then signed by hundreds of combat reserve soldiers in the Israel Defense Forces. The signers of the letter declare that they will not take part in any activity whose objective is to perpetuate the occupation, and hence they refuse to serve beyond the ’67 borders. Over 280 of the signers have served prison terms for their refusal to serve in the occupied territories."

But in the meantime terrorists are blowing themselves up on Israel’s streets – what do you suggest?

Youval Tamari replies: Palestinian terrorism is cruel and brutal. But if there is one thing the current Intifada has taught us, it is that terrorism cannot be beaten by force. At the moment the Israelis and Palestinians are caught in a vicious circle, where acts of terror and assassinations follow each other in an endless, bloody succession. It would be incredibly unwise to sustain this gridlock, which has already taken a heavy toll, killing thousands and injuring tens of thousands. The first step towards breaking the cycle is to minimize the friction and give both sides some hope. It takes a climate of total hopelessness for such hatred and disregard for human life to develop. We do not claim that leaving the territories will magically bring an end to the conflict, but it is preferable by far to staying there, because our being there fuels the hatred – and with it, the terror. No people in the world would be willing to live under occupation. From within clear boundaries, both geographical and moral, we would be able to defend ourselves much more efficiently, just as evacuating the “Security Zone” in south Lebanon has only served to improve our condition.

UCC-GCO,

thanks for the links, oh Deity of WC :3

Why aren't you interested in peace, Brian?

A careful reading of the Kairos Palestine document will debunk most of Bryan's distorted views.

Section 1 entitled "The reality on the ground," is an attempt by the authors to paint a picture of the hardship that exists for the Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza. As a solution to this problem, the authors call for an end to the occupation but nowhere does it call for "the elimination of Israel." To the contrary, section 5.4.2 states " Even  though we have fought one another in the recent past and still struggle today, we are able to love and live together." So Bryan's statement is a gross exaggeration, and a product of his highly prejudicial imagination.

Section 4 is interesting in that there are two sub headings...Love and Resistance, but I guess Bryan missed the nuance. In the authors' eye the occupation is "an evil that must be resisted and removed." It calls on the Palestinians to resist, but not with suicide bombers as Bryan insists. In fact, quite the contrary and again I quote, this time from section 4.2.5: "We do not resist with death but rather through the respect of life." In the same paragraph the document states "We respect and have a high esteem for all those who have given their life for our nation." Bryan misinterprets this as an encouragement to suicide bombers but I highly suspect the Jews of Israel would say exactly the same thing about their soldiers who are defending their country. Also, in the same section, the document states 'the roots of terrorism (a favorite theme of the Israelis) are in the human injustice committed and the evil occupation." Bryan takes offence to the use of the word "evil" but when you steal something from somebody that's what it is. I suppose the authors could have candy-coated the wording so as not to hurt Bryan's feelings but it is what it is.

Bryan states "More to the point, the Kairos document's endorsement of murder hasn't stopped the UCC from promoting it." This charge is not only ludicrous it is highly inflammable. Unfortunately this is common rhetoric used by extremists like Bryan in an attempt to intimidate those who may not have the time/energy/interest and therefore the knowledge to follow such a conflict.

Finally I would like to add a comment to the reply given by the Canadian Jewish Congress (now extinct) to this document. Under the heading "Key Points," the CJC states "Israel is the aboriginal homeland of the Jewish people; ... the single root cause of the conflict is ongoing rejection of Israel and its Jewish character; everything else flows from this rejection." It appears that the Israelis are not content with a Palestinian acceptance of their right to exist. Fatah and the Palestinian Authority under Abbas have accepted Israel's right to exist. Even Hamas's Khaled Meshal has said he would accept a two state solution with the 1967 borders. So why isn't this enough for the Israelis? Why can't the Israelis understand that recognizing Israel as the national homeland of the Jewish people is a non starter for the Palestinians? It would in effect constitute a denial of Palestinian rights to the land. 175,000 Palestinians were uprooted in 1948 and sent packing. Are you going to tell these people and their descendants that after living on the land for generations they have no right to the land? It's the old squatter argument, that anyone in their right mind should reject.

It's people like Bryan who make it difficult to reach a peaceful resolution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. They take quotes out of context and apply their own misguided interpretation. There is little if any objectivity in their analysis and absolutely no interest in compromise. To use a cliche, the Bryans of this world become part of the problem, and not the solution.

stern gang? Hagganah? Have to back pretty far to find serious Israeli terrorism. Israelis did not bomb Cambodia, or any of the other places you mention. This thread IS NOT ABOUT THE US!

HOw about the Israeli invasions of Lebanon?

The invasion of Gaza?

Terrorism or war?

Follow Brian's style - his list of horrors, the rhythms of  his phrases. My guess is that he's a volunteer for something like CJC or B'Nai Brith, and working from a list of material supplied to him.

One of the saddest sights I've seen over the last twenty years has been the destruction of Judaism by CJC, B'Nai Brith, and all their Brian flunkies.

I don't know, that seems to be giving him a lot more credit than he deserves.

I think it's much more probable that he's just a racist asshole who trolls internet blogs trying to get the attention his mommy failed to give him as a child.

Trolls usually denote someone who comes into a diucussion late in the gane and says offensive things to get attention.

You're the noob here Brian. I've been around for years.
 

Keep trying though.

So, Brian, if the UCC has "squandered" it's energies, why are you bothering? What is it you hope to accomplish by bringing your prejudice and racism here? Are you hoping to turn the entire UCC over to your way of "thinking"? Are you hoping to become a leader in a new UCC with prejudice and bigotry for all?

If not, why are you even bothering to post here, if it's not just to get the attention you crave?

I disagree with much of what Brian writes - however some of the comments back to him verge on the antisemitic or at least do not engage his points - which should be challenged and some ought to be considered, and one or two have a point.  Today it sounds like some movement was made on the issue - back to peace talks - but the news at 4 did not confirm but suggested some arrangement was arrived at 0 problably not to the liking  of either side, nor those cheer for only one side without any nuanced understanding - Brian and some of those who disagree fall within this circle.

An Internet troll is someone who posts offensive, controversial, or divisive material on an Internet community. Trolls are an unfortunately common occurrence on many communities across the Internet, and there are various steps which can be taken to combat them. If you are currently struggling with an Internet troll, the best thing to do is to walk away, since trolls feed on attention, and they will usually disappear if they are ignored.

Why is it that intelligent people can't walk away?

To make myself clear - anyone who is a "one trick" pony (who only writes on one issue - and in a manner that is offensive to those that disagree with him/her) will be ignored by me.

Simple as.

Brian

Your reaction to my question, calling me "antisemitic scum," is not only unjustified it's laughable, sort of like watching a seven year old throw a temper tantrum. Why not just answer the question? And try growing up!!!