Jim Kenney
The School System
Posted on: 07/04/2009 10:38
On another discussion thread, the conversation drifted to issues around schools: from fads that assist ambitious ladder climbers through communication between teachers and students to the barriers to schools developing truly educated students. Here is an invitation to offer what you think is good about our schools, what isn't, and what idealistically or realistically can be done to improve schools.
My main hope is that we can find a way to shift schools from the factory model to the garden model, from trying to make students fit what we need of them to working with their gifts and inclinations to growing them as creative, constructive individuals and citizens.
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graeme
much of the school day is
Posted on: 07/05/2009 16:04
much of the school day is wasted on trying to fit all children into the system when many clearly do no. So we tone down the requirements, waste time on trying to make them stop misbehaving. stuff them with pills. or just put up with their rudeness and destrructiveness.
This may or may not be their fault. i don't care about that. But if you are going to put all children through the same system at much the same pace, then either the school of the culture must discipline them for it.
In china, the culture disciplines them - and you can operate a factory system with limited modifications. Our culture doesn't discipline them and, for at least a couple of decades past, the school doesn't, either.
Either we discipliine - or the children who don't fit simiply can't be there. Otherwise, they destroy education for everybody else. I'm not sure what one does with them. They should do work of some sort until age or the work experience matures them to make t hem want to learn.
At best this will still produce a good deal of human wastage, But let's be realistic. Wastage is much of what we are producing now - except we now give certificates at the end of eleven or twelve years of wastage.
I think that along the way - at the latest in the university years - we also need to give them a sense they are doing something productive and valued. I remember well the frustration that burst out at the end of my PhD studies - and I realised it was the result of years of being talked at, poked, prodded, judged...and never having a sense I was useful or valued for anything. A student should not be just studying to do something. A student should have the feeling he is doing something.
graeme
GO_3838
One thing that's good about
Posted on: 07/05/2009 17:05
One thing that's good about our schools:
-a lot of intervention early on when students are experiencing academic difficulty: it's a lot harder now for an at-risk student to just fall through the cracks and then just drop out
One thing that really needs to change:
An administrator's role. Principals and vice-principals are expected to both support the teaching staff and discipline the teaching staff at the same time, and this really gets confusing and contradictory. Adminstrators are expected to fulfill the goals of the school board, but often these financial goals directly conflict with what's best for the staff and the students. Every day, administrators have to choose either what's best for the staff and the students, or the board's agenda. No matter what the adminstrator decides, there is always a group of people unhappy with them. It doesn't help that school boards routinely place an administrator in another school every three years, so that the administrator doesn't get too attached to any school staff. Constant adminstration turnover leads to lack of continuity in the school routines. There has to be a better way to define an adminstrator's job description.
What's really difficult in schools right now:
Coming up with rules to go with the new technology. Students have always found ways to waste time rather than do work (play tic-tac-toe, pass notes, etc.) However, the cell phone is a whole new ballgame. Students can waste class time by texting, or by passing around photos on the cell phone. (Or playing video games, or surfing the net, depending on the type of phone they have.) Never before have students had the power to send a note to 300 people (or more) through a mass text on a phone. The bullying that goes on through cell phones is just unbelievable. The bullying that goes on through Facebook is also unbelievable. One girl wants to hurt another girl, so she goes on the victim's Facebook page and writes that this particular girl sleeps with so-and-so. In other words, the bully posts a false rumour on the victim's Facebook Wall, and then the victim comes to school the next day knowing that probably the whole school, 1014 students, has seen this rumour, thanks to mass texting and e-mailing done by the bully. These two girls get into a huge fight on school property, and then the school is expected to try and deal with the problem.
Jim Kenney
graeme: you identified two
Posted on: 07/05/2009 19:17
graeme: you identified two key issues, but the first is related to the second -- students not feeling useful/purposeful or respected by the system, even if individual teachers keep respent in their relationship with students. While substitute teachng in one school, I got talking with a grade 9 male who worked weekends in a trade, and that is all he wanted to do. But he wasn't 16 so he had to be in school, whether he wanted to be or not. I would like to see the system modified so the workplace can become an official extension of the educational system, more so than our existing Work Experience program. But it would be more complicated to administer. In a number of schools, students are involved in a variety of projects dedicated to helping others; in one small junior high in a rural community, a group of about 12 students raised $25,000 for a project for people with AIDS in Africa. Most school with leadership classes provide opportunites for students to make a difference in their community. These help to make students feel a little more valued. The short-coming of this is that they are valued for what they can do for others in systems designed by adults. Graeme, can you imagine how a system might show it values students for their knowledge and skills?
GO, welcome -- I think this is the first time I have seen you post on a discussion. The technology issue is a difficult one -- I finally resorted to making variations of tests so students have different questions to answer to reduce cheating on tests.
The adminstrator issue is a big one. My wife teaches in a Waldorf School and has both a principal and a pedagogical supervisor -- the pedagogical supervisor's role is to help the teacher develop their skills and methods in the context of a Waldorf school.
graeme
There is lots of really solid
Posted on: 07/05/2009 21:31
There is lots of really solid stuff in all the posts above. And that there is so much (and none of it simply pinning blame on anybody) is an indicator of how complex the problems are.
I'm finding this a stimulating thread.
graeme
GO_3838
Thanks for noticing my post,
Posted on: 07/06/2009 21:08
Thanks for noticing my post, Jim Kenney. I haven't posted much recently, because I tend not to get noticed. (My blog series is aptly titled "Reflections From the Invisible UCCan member") I'm glad to see that I'm not always invisible.
Waldorf School is something new to me. I've heard of Montessorri Schools, but not Waldorf. (I'm assuming that it's not the same Waldorf as the Waldorf Astoria Hotel or waldorf salad.) And a pedagogical supervisor sounds like a neat idea. In the Ontario public school system we have curriculum consultants, but they generally don't provide the practical support that many teachers need.
Jim Kenney
Waldorf schools have been in
Posted on: 07/07/2009 00:13
Waldorf schools have been in Europe for about 70 years -- they are based on a special philosophy that is difficult to understand. Montessori schools are still my preferred choice of the systems I know a bit about out of the many options we seem to have today.
I have to take a time out from Wondercafe for a while, but hope to be back before the end of the month.
BrettA
GO_3838 wrote: Waldorf School
Posted on: 07/07/2009 00:57
Waldorf School is something new to me. I've heard of Montessorri Schools, but not Waldorf. (I'm assuming that it's not the same Waldorf as the Waldorf Astoria Hotel or waldorf salad.) And a pedagogical supervisor sounds like a neat idea. In the Ontario public school system we have curriculum consultants, but they generally don't provide the practical support that many teachers need.
Being a past Waldorf parent, I've seen other parents literally crying at the treatment they received, and I've read forums where Waldorf is a four letter word in the ugliest way. My eldest enjoyed his roughly 7 years there, while we took our youngest out at around Grade 4 past the time that it was clear it wasn't working in the slightest possible way for him. Within a month or two, our youngest (ADHD) was a changed person, far happier, relatively thriving in class and appreciative of his new school.
Conversely, many people who are pro-Waldorf seem to be fervently and extraordinarily 'pro'.
I believe the Waldorf name came from the venue of the first school started be Rudolf Steiner - an abandoned 'Waldorf' cigarette factory. The philosophy is called 'anthroposophy' and depending on whom you speak to, it's more than just 'hard to understand'. Though given that (I believe) many contributors and readers here are fairly strongly religious, you might be fine with said philosophy... anyone considering Waldorf might wish to ask very direct questions of Waldorf staff and specify a hope for very direct answers.
graeme
I'm very suspicitious of
Posted on: 07/07/2009 07:14
I'm very suspicitious of systems of all sorts for people. For that reason, I could never be an ist of any sort - socialist, capitalist, etc. I feel the same say about educational systems. One size can never fit all. One approach cannot work in all situations.
graeme
graeme
I meant to add that people,
Posted on: 07/07/2009 07:16
I meant to add that people, as well as being different, will frequently be corrupt or just bone-headed, and can be counted on to misuse any system - as we are now watching on the part of capitalists in the American banking system.
graeme
somegirl
I'd just like to say that
Posted on: 07/13/2009 20:59
I'd just like to say that I really like the changes that have been brought about since my son's school got a new priniciple. He has brought in extra cirricular activities for the kids as well as making ways for parents, even those working in the day, to become more involved. The school feels much more like a community than it did before. He has been working hard to bring a sense of pride in their school back to the kids and although he has only been there for a year, it seems to be working.
graeme
It's always good to hear of
Posted on: 07/13/2009 21:25
It's always good to hear of something like that - and better still to experience it. The local newspaper is calling for the government to revamp the whole school system. But that's precisely the problem. The government is not made up of educators. It is made up of politicians. So when they revamp, they look for showy things that will look impressive - though may not work at all. This destroys the teachers.
They would be far wiser to let teachers figure out what to do, and principals, as in the case you suggest. They have a real stake in making improvements, and they also are the ones who are more likely to know how to do it.
graeme
GO_3838
I agree with what Graeme
Posted on: 07/14/2009 21:04
I agree with what Graeme says. The problem is that teachers and administrators are usually not consulted about change. Everyone went to school, and everyone has memories of what good teachers and good classrooms look like. However, most people don't realize that their perspective on things as a child may be very different from the teacher's perspective. Your perspective about what goes on in a classroom can be very different from the other side of the desk.
Consider this analogy: Suppose the gov't decided to revamp appendectomies. Suppose politicians in the House of Commons were to have a debate on the length of incisions used for appendectomies. The government presents a motion saying that all appendectomy incisions must be at least two inches long, and no longer than 4 inches. This motion is debated for 12 hours in parliament, and then passes by majority. A memo then goes out to all hospital administrators, saying that they must ensure that all surgeons performing appendectomies must make incisions at least two but no more than four inches long. The hospital administrator puts this memo in the surgeons' mailboxes. The surgeon reads this and says it makes no sense, that it's impractical, that most politicians have never performed appendectomies, and these politicians have no basis or experience to make such a law.
Most people with no surgical experience would ever presume that they have as much knowledge as a surgeon would. Yet this is the attitude that most politicians have about teachers. Politicians think that because they went to school, therefore they have as much professional experience as a teacher, so they can make laws about teaching. Many just assume that teachers are just concerned about their own interests. Read Sun Media journalist John Snobolin. 90% of his articles are hatred towards teachers. When there was talk of a strike of elementary teachers, he wrote an article in which he said words to this effect: "Kindergarten teachers want more prep time? How much prep time does it take to fill the water table?" This demonstrates that he has no idea just how much work kindergarten teachers do. Unfortunately, many people have this attitude.
Maybe one day the gov't will consult with educators and they can work together to make the best education system possible.
graeme
agood thought. And maybe some
Posted on: 07/14/2009 21:20
agood thought. And maybe some day governments will allow teachers to do the work they are trained to do - and stop interfering in it.
graeme
somegirl
It would be nice to see
Posted on: 07/14/2009 21:41
It would be nice to see teachers and principles have more influence on how schools are run. I mean they are there with the kids every day.
One thing that I have really appreciated from a few of my son's teachers is them asking me about my son's behavior. Things like 'is this normal for him?' or 'can you give me advice on how to deal with him when he does that'. Maybe the administrators and politicians should go to the teachers in the same way. Ask them questions like 'what can we do for you to make a better learning enviroment'.
Earlier in the thread it was mentioned that prinicples are there to both support and disipline the teachers. I don't think that is an unusual situation in any workplace. My supervisor does the same thing. If I need something to do my job or need help dealing with another department he is there to support me, but if I screw up, he is there to point it out and make sure that it gets corrected.
graeme
I think you're quite right
Posted on: 07/15/2009 08:27
I think you're quite right about the proper role of a principal. Where it goes wrong is when the principal really has only to please the politicians. Then he disciplines the teachers - but is often less interested in being helpful to them.
graeme