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iWonder@Cafe

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What happens when we die?

What happens when we die?

iWonder is a new initiative from WonderCafe which uses (seemingly) simple questions to spark thought-provoking conversations. We would love to hear your responses to this first round of iWonder questions. You can also participate with your congregation or community using iWonder's discussion-starting postcards, or even offer a video response. For more information, click here.

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chansen's picture

chansen

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After a few days, we start to

After a few days, we start to smell.  Immediately, though, if we died while working out.

trishcuit's picture

trishcuit

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chansen wrote: After a few

chansen wrote:

After a few days, we start to smell.  Immediately, though, if we died while working out.

 

Witch's picture

Witch

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chansen wrote: After a few

chansen wrote:

After a few days, we start to smell.  Immediately, though, if we died while working out.

 

Do alcoholics rot as quickly as teatotallers?

chansen's picture

chansen

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It's an urban legend that we

It's an urban legend that we rot more slowly these days due to the preservatives we eat.  I have no idea about alcoholics, but I doubt it.  Unless they bathe in it.

Witch's picture

Witch

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chansen wrote: It's an urban

chansen wrote:

It's an urban legend that we rot more slowly these days due to the preservatives we eat.  I have no idea about alcoholics, but I doubt it.  Unless they bathe in it.

 

Ahhhhh so you've met my uncle George then.....

MC jae's picture

MC jae

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(No subject)

redbaron338's picture

redbaron338

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The saved end up at a square

The saved end up at a square dance?

Rev. Steven Davis's picture

Rev. Steven Davis

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redbaron338 wrote: The saved

redbaron338 wrote:

The saved end up at a square dance?

 

That would be hell, so they must also be the condemned and not the saved! Imagine. Hades has two floors! (Personally given the choice between eternal fire and non-stop dancing, I'd seriously consider the fire!)

crazyheart's picture

crazyheart

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LOL

LOL

chansen's picture

chansen

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redbaron338 wrote: The saved

redbaron338 wrote:

The saved end up at a square dance?

LOL - I think you made me tear up a little.

chansen's picture

chansen

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Rev. Steven Davis

Rev. Steven Davis wrote:

redbaron338 wrote:

The saved end up at a square dance?

 

That would be hell, so they must also be the condemned and not the saved! Imagine. Hades has two floors! (Personally given the choice between eternal fire and non-stop dancing, I'd seriously consider the fire!)

Would you like smoking, or non-smoking?

 

Kidding!  It's all "smoking" of course.

 

/with apologies to Mr. Atkinson

chansen's picture

chansen

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And why did the powers at

And why did the powers at "iWonder" decide to put this "dying" thread in "Health and Aging"?  This isn't about health or aging - this is about when aging stops and health is no longer a going concern.

Tyson's picture

Tyson

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redbaron338 wrote: The saved

redbaron338 wrote:

The saved end up at a square dance?

 

Come on now. There is a conga and bongo player in the picture, so it most certainly is not a square dance.......... It's a fiesta. That means there will be burritos in Heaven. Good thing I'm a Calvinist because those in the bottom part of the picture are clearly in Taco Hell.

Birthstone's picture

Birthstone

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chansen wrote: Rev. Steven

chansen wrote:

Rev. Steven Davis wrote:

redbaron338 wrote:

The saved end up at a square dance?

 

That would be hell, so they must also be the condemned and not the saved! Imagine. Hades has two floors! (Personally given the choice between eternal fire and non-stop dancing, I'd seriously consider the fire!)

Would you like smoking, or non-smoking?

 

Kidding!  It's all "smoking" of course.

 

/with apologies to Mr. Atkinson

ahahahaha!!! lol, yes....  great skit... someone has to post it :)

Rev. Steven Davis's picture

Rev. Steven Davis

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consumingfire

consumingfire wrote:

redbaron338 wrote:

The saved end up at a square dance?

 

Come on now. There is a conga and bongo player in the picture, so it most certainly is not a square dance.......... It's a fiesta. That means there will be burritos in Heaven. Good thing I'm a Calvinist because those in the bottom part of the picture are clearly in Taco Hell.

 

If there are burritos involved, I'd put up with the dancing!

Tyson's picture

Tyson

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Rev. Steven Davis

Rev. Steven Davis wrote:

consumingfire wrote:

redbaron338 wrote:

The saved end up at a square dance?

 

Come on now. There is a conga and bongo player in the picture, so it most certainly is not a square dance.......... It's a fiesta. That means there will be burritos in Heaven. Good thing I'm a Calvinist because those in the bottom part of the picture are clearly in Taco Hell.

 

If there are burritos involved, I'd put up with the dancing!

 

Agreed.

 

GordW's picture

GordW

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chansen wrote: And why did

chansen wrote:

And why did the powers at "iWonder" decide to put this "dying" thread in "Health and Aging"?  This isn't about health or aging - this is about when aging stops and health is no longer a going concern.

 

Then again it is about health and aging because death is the natural (dare I say healthy) result  of life.

seeler's picture

seeler

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Of course our bodies start to

Of course our bodies start to rot - ashes to ashes, dust to dust - how fast probably depends upon a lot of things - like the temperature, and whether or not the body is embombed.  And the big question might be do we end up square dancing or walking around the bonfires?

 

But, what happens just as we die?

 

A few years ago I read a book called "How We Die" by Sherwin B. Nuland (according to the back cover he teaches surgery and the history of medicine at Yale University).  This book talks about how the body shuts down with various diseases:  Heart problems, the aging process, Alzheimer's, Cancer, AIDS, Murder, Accidents, Suicide and a few others.  I found it somehow very comforting when I discovered it at a book sale shortly after my mother-in-law's death.  We had sat with her during the last week of her life, watching the changes taking place - but found the doctor's difficult to find and to talk to.  She was 80 and refused treatment for her liver cancer.  The nurses were kind, but they too wouldn't (or couldn't) give us much information.  Se we watched as she started refusing food, sipping a bit of tea, but less as time went on.  Her skin turned yellow, her eyes glazed, she spoke less and less until the last day or so she didn't speak at all, although she remained conscious and knew who we were.  She had an IV dripping slowly, a catheter draining dark yellow/brown.  She flesh became puffy; her breathing shallow.  Then one afernoon we went back to the apartment for a short break and the hospital phoned;  "There has been a change in your mother's condition."   My husband and one of his brothers rushed over (10 minutes), and were told that she was gone.  

 

Since then I have done some more reading, and began to understand how the body shuts down - organ by organ, slowing, and eventually stopping, until that final breath, that final heart beat.   

 

And oh yes, keep in mind that long after the patient losses the ability to speak or respond, they can and do still hear.  Talk to them.  Tell them how much they are loved and valued.  And be careful what else you say within their hearing.   

revjohn's picture

revjohn

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Hi

Hi iWonder@Cafe,

 

iWonder@Cafe wrote:

What happens when we die?

 

When we die?  Our hearts stop beating, we stop breathing and brain activity shuts down.

 

If you want to know what happens after that well, I have some ideas about what might happen.

 

Grace and peace to you.

John

seeler's picture

seeler

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RevJohn - you've given us the

RevJohn - you've given us the bare bones - heart stops, breathing stops, brain shuts down.  But what happens to precipitate this, and what happens to each of our body functions as it happens.  What can I expect in the next few weeks, days, hours, and minutes after I've been told that I have an incurable disease and only a short time to live?

 

What made the heart stop?  Was it poisons backed up in the blood stream because of kidney failure, which was caused by that chronic infection in my digestive system?  When the heart stops, the blood stops flowing.  Without the blood flowing and bringing ozygen the brain starts to shut down, slowly, one part at a time.  The part that controls the breathing shuts down - and the lungs stop.  But you have the lungs stopping before the brain dies - why?  What stopped the lungs?     And even after these vital organs die, are there parts of the body still living?  Maybe the large muscles, the skin?  It seems that I have heard that the hair and nails continue to grow for some time after death - how could that be? 

 

What about pain?  panic?  fear? visions?   How do you suppose the dying experience these?

 

And those sitting with the dying person - what do they observe?  If it is a frist time, what might they expect?

 

What does happen in the process of dying?

 

 

mrs.anteater's picture

mrs.anteater

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seeler, In our hospital most

seeler,

In our hospital most end stage cancer patients atre followed by the palliative care team- a team of doctors and nurses that follow patients in the hospital and at home and if the family and/or patient wish to know explain the "natural" process. They would also ask, if the IV should still be continued, as it prolonges the process.

They also help the patient with his/her last decisions and family issues- if this is so wished. What most amazed me when I attended a workshop by them, was that sometimes patients want to die when the family is not present- they keep hanging on until that moment the family leaves the room to go to lunch or for a shower.

Family often feels guilty about not having been there- but they have found that it can be the patient's way of being able to let go and go on.

seeler's picture

seeler

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I have heard that

I have heard that lastpointe.  Actually a friend recently lost her husband after a long deterioration following a brain injury.  She was will him almost constantly.  Then the doctor pursuaded her to take a break while her son sat with his dad.  She went home, had a bite, grabbed a shower, and as she stepped out of the bathroom her other son met her.  The hospital had called - "He's gone, Mom."   The son who was with him says, and she agrees with him, that 'Dad didn't want to die in front of Mom.'

 

 

seeler's picture

seeler

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I have heard of others  who

I have heard of others  who hung on for days until a far away son or daughter got home to see them, perked up for a short time, and then died a few hours later.

 

crazyheart's picture

crazyheart

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And I have always wondered if

And I have always wondered if the person in the last part of life even thinks of where they are going? Do they worry about this or do they just relax and let whatever happens - happen.?

MC jae's picture

MC jae

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Rev. Steven Davis wrote: If

Rev. Steven Davis wrote:

If there are burritos involved, I'd put up with the dancing!

 

Hi Rev.,

 

If there are burritos involved, I hope there's plenty of this:

 

 

 

Rev. Steven Davis's picture

Rev. Steven Davis

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Jae wrote: Rev. Steven Davis

Jae wrote:

Rev. Steven Davis wrote:

If there are burritos involved, I'd put up with the dancing!

 

Hi Rev.,

 

If there are burritos involved, I hope there's plenty of this:

 

 

 

 

Handy, I agree Jae.     

chansen's picture

chansen

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crazyheart wrote: And I have

crazyheart wrote:

And I have always wondered if the person in the last part of life even thinks of where they are going? Do they worry about this or do they just relax and let whatever happens - happen.?

This is a very good question.

 

I think if you are conditioned to believe in heaven and hell and question your own worthiness, then a coming death could be a very, very traumatic thing.

revjohn's picture

revjohn

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Hi Rev. Steven Davis,   Rev.

Hi Rev. Steven Davis,

 

Rev. Steven Davis wrote:

Personally given the choice between eternal fire and non-stop dancing, I'd seriously consider the fire!)

 

Funny how one interprets art isn't it?

 

I saw the heavenly square dance which I will continue to pray unceasingly is grossly in error.

 

Then I saw folk picking up little lumps and stuffing them into sacks amidst all the flames.  Well of course that would be the catering, thinks I because, what perfect way to round out an evening of the torment that is square dancing than by ingesting sacks of what looks like rocks.

 

 

Grace and peace to you.

John

revjohn's picture

revjohn

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Hi seeler,   seeler

Hi seeler,

 

seeler wrote:

But what happens to precipitate this, and what happens to each of our body functions as it happens.  What can I expect in the next few weeks, days, hours, and minutes after I've been told that I have an incurable disease and only a short time to live?

 

That would answer the question, "what happens while we die?" which, while being an interesting question, is not the one that was asked.

 

Nor do I think that any answer to that interesting question is one size fits all.  Every unique individual will face their own death uniquely.  We may recognize elements that are common to a good many deaths.  How they are woven into the narrative of a particular death will be as particular as the person dying.

 

seeler wrote:

What about pain?  panic?  fear? visions?   How do you suppose the dying experience these?

 

Dying is like fingerprints.  No two deaths are the same.

 

As mentioned above there will be similarities, just as there are similarities in fingerprints and yet it is how the loops and whirls are configured that make up the narrative.  Death is a new frontier, having had the honour of taking that sojourn with several folk I have found that their are different paths to a doorway which they will pass and I cannot follow.

 

What lies beyond the door is the stuff of dreams and nightmares.

 

Or so we might be tempted to think.

 

seeler wrote:

And those sitting with the dying person - what do they observe?  If it is a frist time, what might they expect?

 

Another intriguing question.  Just as different from the first.

 

Physically, I have observed that while the body becomes weaker it continues to fight to hang on to what little life it has possession of.  Sitting with a dying person gasping for breath can be an intimidating experience.  Nearer to the end there will be staggeringly long pauses between some breaths and about the time you begin to form the thought, "It is over." there will be another desperate gasp for breath from a body that cannot quit and that can go on for hours.

 

Death, like living, is not for the faint of heart or the timid.

 

seeler wrote:

What does happen in the process of dying?

 

As stated previously, parts of the body we used to take for granted now fail alarmingly.  Most often folk are not conscious and aware of it.  A good many, based only on the subjective experience I have, go in their sleep and in very little pain no matter what the cause of death might be.

 

Some have their friends and family about and can at the very least respond to questions by squeezing hands.  Some cannot even communicate in that way.

 

Grace and peace to you.

John

iWonder@Cafe's picture

iWonder@Cafe

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  A few submissions from

 

A few submissions from "off-line"...
 
Rachelle:
I grew up with a number of chronic health conditions, and have several near death experiences under my belt. I’ve slowly come to understand the process of letting go of my tactile self. I think death is a cumulative experience, with a number of stages, both physical and meta-physical in nature. The closer I walk or align myself with God, the deeper, more intense these transitory states of release will be. If I can accept the peace within this process, I think dying will be a valuable road of self- transformation. I don’t fear death as much as I fear a life apart from God. I know each stage will incorporate both personal pathos, and the childlike expectancy of nearing my final destination: standing face to face with God, receiving his just account of my life, but most of all, his redemptive light and affirmation.
 
---Rachelle works as a lawyer's assistant, as well as serving on the boards of Students for Barrier-Free Access at the University of Toronto, and ARCH Disability Law Centre.
 
Alyssa:
To be honest I don't know. I believe that those who live by faith in Jesus go to heaven. How that works and when it happens is a mystery.
 
---Alyssa is a professional photographer in her 20s living and working in Toronto.
iWonder@Cafe's picture

iWonder@Cafe

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weeze's picture

weeze

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I really liked the little

I really liked the little Mitch Albom book, "The Five People You Will Meet in Heaven."  Not a theological tome by any means, but I liked it anyway.

MikePaterson's picture

MikePaterson

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 The thing I feel most phobic

 The thing I feel most phobic about is people WATCHING when I die. I do not know why. I would like to die alone. It seems like the wrong moment to start a conversation.

AFTER I am dead, I do not care what happens to the remains: a landfill or recycling depot, a pet food company, fed through a garburator into the drains... whatever suits anyone facing the p^roblem.

youthful faith's picture

youthful faith

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MorningCalm wrote: has

MorningCalm wrote:

has anyone else noticed that the people dancing are all dark-skinned, and the people in the flames/labour seem to have lighter skin?

Witch's picture

Witch

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It does look that way, so I

It does look that way, so I checked a sample of the pixels to see.

 

Most of them range around an average of RGB 173 117 82 ish, but essentially the two groups use the same plaette range for skin colour.

 

Or brains play tricks on use when viewing the same colour against different backgrounds.

Tyson's picture

Tyson

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Witch wrote: It does look

Witch wrote:

It does look that way, so I checked a sample of the pixels to see.

 

Most of them range around an average of RGB 173 117 82 ish, but essentially the two groups use the same plaette range for skin colour.

 

Or brains play tricks on use when viewing the same colour against different backgrounds.

 

You are such a geek.

youthful faith's picture

youthful faith

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Tyson wrote: Witch wrote: It

Tyson wrote:

Witch wrote:

It does look that way, so I checked a sample of the pixels to see.

 

Most of them range around an average of RGB 173 117 82 ish, but essentially the two groups use the same plaette range for skin colour.

 

Or brains play tricks on use when viewing the same colour against different backgrounds.

 

You are such a geek.

Ahh, but without geeks we wouldn't even be close to as far advanced as we are now.. we probably wouldn't even be on the internet!

Tyson's picture

Tyson

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youthful faith wrote: Tyson

youthful faith wrote:

Tyson wrote:

Witch wrote:

It does look that way, so I checked a sample of the pixels to see.

 

Most of them range around an average of RGB 173 117 82 ish, but essentially the two groups use the same plaette range for skin colour.

 

Or brains play tricks on use when viewing the same colour against different backgrounds.

 

You are such a geek.

Ahh, but without geeks we wouldn't even be close to as far advanced as we are now.. we probably wouldn't even be on the internet!

 

Agreed.

budd's picture

budd

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When you croak, your soul

When you croak, your soul passes to another dimension!

InannaWhimsey's picture

InannaWhimsey

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Irreducible Mind by Edward F.

Irreducible Mind by Edward F. Kelly, Emily Williams Kelly, et al., a huge book, but it will give the reader the ability to actually talk meaningfully aboot the subject rather than "just" philosophizing :3

 

Morgan Freeman + Stuart Hameroff + Roger Penrose + Room Temperature Quantum Entanglement + Holographic universe = afterlife

EDIT: plus it has my current favourite model on the soul courtesy of that polymath, Douglas Hofstadter. With this model, we are involved with souls -- the more people we know and love, the richer and more widespread our soul becomes.

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