Green Party: Economically Conservative?
Posted on: 09/19/2008 23:16
I was listening to a polical panel on CBC today and was surprised to hear that the Green party is considered financially conservative, and not terribly socially left-wing. In fact, it was reminded that Elizabeth May was a Conservative policy advisor previously. This is not the impression that they portray. I had thought that they were quite left of center. Any thoughts? E.
- Login or register to post comments
- Add new comment
Comments
elisabeth
Posted on: 09/19/2008 23:17
LBmuskoka
Posted on: 09/20/2008 08:00
The policy makers appear to understand that extremes do not work. They have, in an attempt to put into practice their priorities, looked at how this can practically happen. To do this one needs to be economically conservative - one can not alienate or undermine the big players, realistically you need their money and their resources.
At this point in time the Green Party appears to want a collaborative effort to protect the environment. Their policies, as I interpret them, are protective of small businesses (again something rather unique) but not punitive against large corporations that will sign onto their programme.
It is a policy designed to unite not divide.
Will it work? I don't know. My cynical side says no, there is a a sense of the old trickle down effect - that a clean environment will reduce the effects of poverty - that I do not hold to. My optimistic side says it just might work, that we can all come together.
LB
Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow.
Albert Einstein
Band
Posted on: 09/20/2008 13:18
HoldenCaulfield
Posted on: 09/22/2008 01:43
Yes it will be a GREEN day indeed when all of those oil loving Stetsons get together with the rejects from the Common Sense Revolution back at the re-elected Tory Cabinet Table. I expect that guys like Myron Thompson and Stockewell Day will do great things for the earth. Even though Stock is just waiting for the End Times, which will be here any moment, I suspect that they should be good stewards of the earth.
"That'll be an Alberta Steak, rare, compliments of the 7% at the Tofu and bean sprout table."
I wonder, can you install spurs on Birkenstocks?
Arminius
Posted on: 09/22/2008 12:42
I would say that the fiscal policies of the Green Party are prudent and pragmatic.
Arminius
Posted on: 09/22/2008 12:58
This is why Elizabeth May will be such a formidable opponent in the leaders' debate. She sides with all of her opponents, and just injects social and environmental responsiblity into their agenda, which are motherhood issues that are difficult to disagree with.
The Green Movement is essentially a-political, and the Green Party, as the political arm of that movement, is bringing this a-political stance into the political arena. A new phenomenon on the Canadian political scene.
Birthstone
Posted on: 09/22/2008 14:09
One excellent way to see the Green Perspective is this:
Not only do they measure programs & results by economic benchmarks,
They want to add in measures by social justice & environmental ones.
In other words? Is a program good for our economy? Good for the people it engages? Good for the environment? The answer needs to be "YES" to all three, or we need to tweak it some more.
That is something I wholeheartedly believe in.
And yes Holden, it is unlikely they'll win, and likely a good thing because they are inexperienced, but voting for them gives them a voice, and their voice is something we need to hear.
MWS
Posted on: 09/22/2008 21:38
Sure they would cut some taxes like income tax they would also raise the GST to fund municipal infrastructure. They are against the secretive way the Security and Prosperity Partnership agreement which further integrates the military, security, trade, economic, regulatory and foreign polices of the three NFTA countries. This agreement was first signed by Paul Martin (gasp a Liberal) and continued with by Steven Harper. The Greens state that they support trade agreements that are open and democractic and reflect a commitment to fair trade above free trade.
It is a valid point that the Greens are rather light on the experience side of governance but so were the NDP in Ontario and so is Obama and Palin, obviously not to the same extent.
Not committed to any party yet but I wouldn't be too scared if any party took some of the best small "c" conservative ideas and used them in their platform.
DaveHenderson
Posted on: 09/22/2008 21:44
You wrote:
"Worse than the Green party being economically Conservative is that they have a band of completely untested candidates, that no one cares much to put unde the spotlight."
Are you saying that we shouldn't allow new ideas, new approaches or new concepts into our political arenas? 7 percent of the voting population right now says the Green Party has ideas and approaches and policies that should be considered.
Change often doesn't come easy...sometimes not easy at all.
If Canadians wanted it really easy they could have a junta, outlaw any opposing parties and run things from one table. It would be easier, but in no ways better...
wu_wei
Posted on: 09/22/2008 23:31
I used to be like you, concerned more with the consequences of my vote than who I was voting for. Hell, the first time I could vote, I voted for the National Party (remember them?) because I thought they brought the right blend of progress with fiscal responsibility. Needless to say, they didn't win the election.
After that election, I started listening to everyone else who said "You shouldn't waste your vote on fringe parties, it only splits the vote and lets the really nasty party get in." I found this to be a very unsatisfactory course of action, but could not break away from the "lesser of three evils" mentality.
In the last couple of elections, however, I've started to vote with my conscience again. I'm not sure whether it's due to maturity, or just a complete lack of "give a darn", but I feel like for the system to work we all HAVE to vote with our conscience, and not with an eye to "keeping the bad guys out". I figure if we all did that, the bad guys wouldn't have a chance.
I will publicly proclaim my support for the Green party, not because I agree with every policy they want to implement, but because they come closest, as a party, to the type of government I want to see in power.
jlin
Posted on: 09/23/2008 00:34
tThere is; however, some truth to Arminius' image as a rainbow party as the new immigration of Liberals, ex-Socreds, and ex-Progressive Conservatives has not necessarily moved into the constituencies where the Greens first gained support and representation and who were, quite socialistic in keeping with the European socialist model.
The answer to such a connundrum as a conservative Green party and to all mysteries in Canadian politics in general is, "yes, but we are too close to the United States.."
LBmuskoka
Posted on: 09/23/2008 06:43
Here is the irony side: In my riding the choide is a Liberal candidate whose work experience consists of 22 years at Home Hardware plus a couple years as municiple councillor versus the Green Candidate who is a younger man with a political science degree and stated profession is a teacher.
Hmmm, if experience is the basis for voting I would have to go Conservative as the candidate has several years at the Federal level and is a cabinet minister.
In my case, I don't think experience is all that it is cracked up to be. for me it is just cracked...
LB
If we're growing, we're always going to be out of our comfort zone.
John Maxwell
Arminius
Posted on: 09/23/2008 13:38
Our Green Party candidate, on the other hand, does not have any political experience but has a Social Sciences degree, is a computer programmer, is widely known as a generous, kind, loving and caring woman, and has years of experience as a social and environmental activist, similar to the Green Party Leader, Elizabeth May. As I said before, many former Conservative voters in our riding will be voting for her in the upcoming election.
ShamanWolf
Posted on: 09/23/2008 17:27
An emphasis on a green tax shift in the 2004 platform, which favoured partially reducing income and corporate taxes (while increasing taxes on polluters and energy consumers), created questions as to whether the Green Party was still on the left of the political spectrum, or was taking a more eco-capitalist approach by reducing progressive taxation in favour of regressive taxation. Green Party policy writers have challenged this interpretation by claiming that any unintended "regressive" tax consequences from the application of a Green Tax Shift would be intentionally offset by changes in individual tax rates and categories as well as an 'eco-tax" refund for those who pay no tax.
The Green Party of Canada platform does promote some policies usually associated with the left. It calls for an end to homelessness via subsidized housing, promotes a guaranteed livable income, and opposes private sector involvement in public health, education and prison services.
As early as 2000, the party had published platform comparisons indicating the reasons why supporters of any of the five other Canadian federal political parties should consider voting Green. The Greens have always had right-wing, leftist and centrist factions that have been ascendant at different times in the party's history. Many Greens also claim that this traditional left-right political spectrum analysis does not accurately capture the pragmatic ecological orientation of an evolving Green Party.[13]
Man, the regressive taxation thing is so unclear... that's unlike the Green party - usually they're really clear on everything. Let's hope it is 'unintentional' and 'balanced out'. Regressive taxation is not conservership. It's putting the boardroom table ahead of the kitchen table.
HoldenCaulfield
Posted on: 09/23/2008 20:53
My conscience will not keep my kids' air clean, or control the out of control oil based economy, or ensure a compassionate future, or protection of charter rights.
My Conscience will also not keep American War Resisters safe and out of prison in Canada.
However, my vote for the most popular opposition party just might.
DaveHenderson
Posted on: 09/23/2008 21:56
What makes the Conservative party the "bad guys" versus the Liberals? Many would say that despite some minor variations, the tories and grits are as largely in lockstep as the Republicans and Democrats are in the U-S.
And while the cries of outrage will likely be heard through my screen, I'd also like to hazard the opinion that neither Conservatives or Liberals are "bad guys"...different in outlook perhaps, sharply divided in areas of philosophy and governance, but certainly not bad.
Whether it's people, parties or any other movement, handing out white hats and black hats never helped foster communications or cooperation.
HoldenCaulfield
Posted on: 09/24/2008 00:28
The Liberals gave us
- CPP and Health Care
- Chretien Extended Mat Leave to 12 months
- The Liberals Gave us the Charter of Rights, and the Court Challenges Program
- The Office of the Status of Women
- They gave us a National Daycare program that was later killed by the Conservatives
Just a small sampling
I won't even bother to list some of the bad deeds of the former conservatives, (Free Trade, Wild Deficits, Shady friends in high places)
Let's focus on Harpers Reformers
- Scrapped the court challenges program
- Tried to politicise the Supreme Court appointments
- ignores majority votes in Parliament (war resisters)
- fires senior civil servants who speak out
- cancelled the national daycare program, stripped the office of the status of women of their real power.
- cut Arts funding
- Houses intolerance in the form of homophobes and bigots within their party and refuses to expel them.
I've listed this stuff all before Dave. Now if people don't give a damn about the list above and the others I have spoken about; if they are okay with censorship, okay with young earth creationists as cabinet ministers and with Evangelical preachers roaming the halls helping to set policy then they will see nothing wrong with the Conservatives.
However, all of that scares the hell out of me Dave.
Birthstone
Posted on: 09/24/2008 07:25
elisabeth
Posted on: 09/24/2008 22:07
Motheroffive
Posted on: 09/24/2008 23:55
jlin
Posted on: 09/25/2008 01:26
Tories and Grits can only be appealing to you if you are a neo-colonialist anarchist living in UpperLower Canada.
Arminius
Posted on: 09/25/2008 12:02
Environmental health, however, is the basic health on which everything else depends. We simply can't have a healthy society without a healty environment. Indivdidual, social, and economic health all depend on environmental health.
The other parties can best defeat the Green Party by making environmentalism their number one priority as well. And I think this is what Elisabeth May does best, and wherein she shines: She brings The Number One Motherhood Issue into the political arena and forces it onto the plate of all parties.
kwind
Posted on: 09/25/2008 16:08
Change isn't a bad thing. Don't be so scared.
Kwind
MWS
Posted on: 09/25/2008 16:20
Birthstone
Posted on: 09/25/2008 16:57
HoldenCaulfield
Posted on: 09/25/2008 17:23
jlin
Posted on: 09/26/2008 02:33
I guess we will discover if the 46% who will not vote are actually U.S. citizens?
Arminius
Posted on: 09/26/2008 17:04
HoldenCaulfield
Posted on: 09/26/2008 17:29
ShamanWolf
Posted on: 09/27/2008 09:01
As the Liberals are floundering, the Left is fragmenting, the NDP and the Greens are rising...
I think this is a necessary step of an evolutionary process.
The end of Gritlock is a big risk but creates real new possibilities. Wouldn't it be awesome to have, in a few years, say, Prime Minister Jack Layton?
However, I wish Stephane Dion had a better role to play in the history of the Liberal party than as the one who brought Gritlock down from the inside. He is really awesome.
Northwind
Posted on: 09/27/2008 14:22
Since my vote will not affect the national stage, and will not help the Harper government get a majority, I have the luxury of voting my conscience. I am bouncing between NDP and Green. I would be happy if either party had more of a voice in Ottawa.
We do need to have change that allows regular citizens to participate in the dialogue,and not just the elites! I also think that the NDP needs to go back to some of their CCF roots and values. I am currently reading "Pedagogy of the Oppressed" by Paulo Freire, can you tell?
Motheroffive
Posted on: 09/28/2008 13:20
Band
Posted on: 10/01/2008 21:13
It is good to see the green party getting out there to fill the void that has let other parties define them.
Band
Posted on: 10/01/2008 21:15
Arminius
Posted on: 10/01/2008 22:49
You must have been thinking back to the beginnings of the Reform Party, which was the Western Canadian Concept Party under Doug Christie, defender of the infamous holocaust denier, Ernst Zundel, and others. The old Alberta Socreds under "Bible Bill Aberhard" already were Fascist sympathizers, and the Western Concept/Alliance/Reform/Conservative Party took that attitude over from them.
So the Green Party has become the alternative to Alberta's neo-Fascism? Great!
kenziedark
Posted on: 10/02/2008 12:26
http://www.voteforenvironment.ca/
jeanct62
Posted on: 10/02/2008 17:39
I was surprised as well. And I began to wonder...
First...At one time, the conservatives were an unpopular party, at least they only got two seats in Parliament, I believe. Poor Joe Clark had the job of representing them at the time. So then the Reform Party and the Alliance Party were created in the west. They evolved into the Conservative Party that exists today in my opinion and no longer vie for seats in Parliament from what I understand.
Second...There was a weak conservative presence in Quebec for the longest time and in the last Provincial election a new party (rumoured to be right wing) emerged with a strong following. Did the Quebecois vote based on a particular issue? (An a-political party is not so uncommon really).
Third...What better way to reach the majority of voters with an issue which is important to everyone. The environment - it's an issue common and crucial to the elderly, the young, parents with young children, immigrants, first nations - everyone. So if you can't get voters because you have an unpopular party why not try to reach them through an issue?
Politics is like an extreme sport and one needs cunning and innovative strategies to succeed.
I believe the Liberals "green" plan is as good as the Green Party's could be although I've heard more about their actual strategy than I've heard from the Green Party. The NDP has had some good leadership in this area as well. The conservatives don't seem to say much about the environment. Could this be because they don't need to; they've got the Green Party to do it for them?
I'm curious to see how long the Green party will be around; and if they continue to gain momentum, how long the conservatives will be, (at least in places where they haven't been so popular).
jeanct62
Posted on: 10/03/2008 06:52
Could I be mistaken about the Green Party being allied to the Conservatives? Ms. May's presence at the debate certainly wasn't entirely what I expected. She didn't seem to criticize anyone BUT Harper. In fact she seemed to reiinforce, clarify or add to what the others said.
I was certainly impressed with her grasp of so many varied issues. She was on her game! She appeared to know her stuff and was feisty. She has now got the country's attention I would say.
It was odd that Harper didn't respond to her very much. Unless it had to do with his positioning. He seemed to address only the other side of the table and Steve Pakin.
RussP
Posted on: 10/03/2008 11:28
Russ
GadZooks
Posted on: 10/03/2008 14:02
Why are there never policies aimed at the "single-income parent" demographic?
jlin
Posted on: 10/03/2008 23:04
Arminius
Posted on: 10/04/2008 13:05
InannaWhimsey
Well, when I think aboot it,
Posted on: 10/10/2008 23:51
Well, when I think aboot it, it makes sense, because it seems to me that a 'Green' attitude can be a conservative attitude, one that resists and is anxious of change.
Relying on the past (with such notions as 'biodiversity') to make decisions based on some Edenic way of existing that doesn't take into account how things change, even *fundamental* things, such as human evolution taking over from pre-human evolution.
Bearing a lantern,
Inannawhimsey
SLJudds
I won't support the Greens in
Posted on: 10/11/2008 10:01
I won't support the Greens in my riding, but I thought Elizabeth May made a positive contribution to the Leader's debate. I hope one or two get elected - especially Elizabeth.
ShamanWolf
Elizabeth May PWNED EVERYBODY
Posted on: 10/11/2008 18:11
Elizabeth May PWNED EVERYBODY in the debate. She didn't sound that conservative. Personal income tax cuts but no corporate tax cuts, perhaps putting most of the increased taxation on corporations... sounds pretty reasonable. If you have the room for it cutting income taxes is fine. Even the carbon tax money is going into those.
She is one of the few leaders with any really original ideas, aside from Dion on the carbon tax and Layton on all those demographic-targeting random programs (which could be considered definitely 'pork-barrel'). One program won't do much at this point. We need serious legislation to protect the environment, and not only high targets but concrete strategies to reach them. We need the environment as a high priority, though not so high that it will hurt everything else. That's what the Greens are offering. Also, she really gets how an environmentally friendly 'eco'-nomy would work. I was really convinced by that debate.
I voted Green at the student election at my school.
clupea123
For me, my concern with the
Posted on: 10/19/2008 16:25
For me, my concern with the Green Party is that they are so caught up in the environment that they either don't know what they're going to do with everything else or that they know what they're going to do and they're just not telling us and staying undercover of the environment.
InannaWhimsey
Liza certainly has class,
Posted on: 10/19/2008 20:34
Liza certainly has class, that I can really admire :3
Suggesting in the lead-up to the election to vote strategically.
Classy,
Inannawhimsey
Birthstone
clupea123 wrote:For me, my
Posted on: 10/20/2008 08:11
For me, my concern with the Green Party is that they are so caught up in the environment that they either don't know what they're going to do with everything else or that they know what they're going to do and they're just not telling us and staying undercover of the environment.
Hi cluepea123 - welcome to the cafe. Actually, I think that we have all found here is surprise at how broad the Green platform is. They are fiscally conservative, focused deeply on justice issues and although some policies are not fully rooted out (they have no hope to be government so why bother) but they have enough to show they are serious.
I like their 3 way approach to evaluating policies: fiscally sound, environmentally sound, justice based. Good enough for me.
CityElf
The first time I heard
Posted on: 10/21/2008 01:49
The first time I heard Elizabeth May talk in person I cried.
I've never heard a Politician speak like that before. As a Christian myself she hit everything I've been sensitive too BANG on. Everytime she mentioned something it would hit me right in the chest. Never had I thought I would ever vote for the Green Party, only because I was left unchallenged and let my preconceptions about the Parties platform blind me. I researched everything they had to say from Health Care to the SPP and was blown away. She met my values as a Christian. The only thing Harper had was a contrived view of Family and Family Values. My conviction came even more apparent when I found out that Elizabeth May is a Sunday School teacher.
Anyways, slightly off topic for you Elisabeth...
Just wanted to give my 2 cents.
Jaymie
Dianna K. Gonea...
Look at the Green Shift plan
Posted on: 10/25/2008 07:15
Look at the Green Shift plan if you want to see conservative fiscal thought! Give a tax break to corporations. Then, tax back heavy polluters. Obviously, what happens is the heavy polluters stop as much pollution as they possibly can to profit from the tax break, right? Therefore, they don't pay the taxes! Right? So, then, where does the money come from to pay for social programmes? There is no money in so there can be no money out! We lose!
I'd say, "Don't cut the taxes to the richest corporations, but do demand that polluters stop polluting as quickly as possible through tough legislation with teeth (enforcement mechanisms).
Then, there's the Green Party's guaranteed minimum income that will be a liveable income. Sounds good! But what about people on CPP (Canada Pension Plan and Canada Disability Plan)? Right now, there isn't much of a means test, is there? Your spouse makes big bucks, you have a retirement income or investments, you are too disabled to work. Can you still collect CPP disability and so can your kids if they are still in school up to age 25.? Yes! But if there was a guaranteed living income would people still get CPP disability or would it be means tested. If you have the means, you do not get CPP disability and neither do your kids.
Nuff said?
Dianna K. Goneau Inkster