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Why do we drug our Children. Does it help them, or does it help society

 

From http://io9.com/5880659/is-it-time-to-rethink-the-treatment-of-attention-deficit-disorder

The New York Times has published two thought-provoking opinion pieces relating to Attention Deficit Disorder and the medications used to treat it.

 

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The first is written by L. Alan Sroufe — a professor emeritus of psychology at the University of Minnesota's Institute of Child Development — who contends that popular medications like Ritalin and Adderall, while effective in the short-term treatment of ADD, are impractical long-term solutions. He even goes so far as to claim that the success of these drugs has helped undermine more important research into the disorder's true origins.

The second piece — written by KJ Dell'Antonia, lead blogger for The Times' Motherlode — offers up a well-thought-out reaction to what some have interpreted as callousness on Sroufe's part, raising even more questions about the treatment and study of ADD in the process.

Regardless of your opinions on or experience with ADD and ADD medications, the two articles — especially taken together — definitely warrant a read. Included here is an excerpt from the piece by Sroufe, but you can check them both out in their entirety by clicking through the links below.

L. Alan Sroufe — "Ritalin Gone Wrong"

KJ Dell'Antonia — "If Ritalin Has ‘Gone Wrong,' What's the Right Way to Cope?"

Three million children in this country take drugs for problems in focusing. Toward the end of last year, many of their parents were deeply alarmed because there was a shortage of drugs like Ritalin and Adderall that they considered absolutely essential to their children's functioning.

But are these drugs really helping children? Should we really keep expanding the number of prescriptions filled?

In 30 years there has been a twentyfold increase in the consumption of drugs for attention-deficit disorder.

As a psychologist who has been studying the development of troubled children for more than 40 years, I believe we should be asking why we rely so heavily on these drugs.

Attention-deficit drugs increase concentration in the short term, which is why they work so well for college students cramming for exams. But when given to children over long periods of time, they neither improve school achievement nor reduce behavior problems. The drugs can also have serious side effects, including stunting growth.

Sadly, few physicians and parents seem to be aware of what we have been learning about the lack of effectiveness of these drugs.

What gets publicized are short-term results and studies on brain differences among children. Indeed, there are a number of incontrovertible facts that seem at first glance to support medication. It is because of this partial foundation in reality that the problem with the current approach to treating children has been so difficult to see.

Back in the 1960s I, like most psychologists, believed that children with difficulty concentrating were suffering from a brain problem of genetic or otherwise inborn origin. Just as Type I diabetics need insulin to correct problems with their inborn biochemistry, these children were believed to require attention-deficit drugs to correct theirs. It turns out, however, that there is little to no evidence to support this theory.

In 1973, I reviewed the literature on drug treatment of children for The New England Journal of Medicine. Dozens of well-controlled studies showed that these drugs immediately improved children's performance on repetitive tasks requiring concentration and diligence. I had conducted one of these studies myself. Teachers and parents also reported improved behavior in almost every short-term study. This spurred an increase in drug treatment and led many to conclude that the "brain deficit" hypothesis had been confirmed.

But questions continued to be raised, especially concerning the drugs' mechanism of action and the durability of effects. Ritalin and Adderall, a combination of dextroamphetamine and amphetamine, are stimulants. So why do they appear to calm children down? Some experts argued that because the brains of children with attention problems were different, the drugs had a mysterious paradoxical effect on them.

However, there really was no paradox. Versions of these drugs had been given to World War II radar operators to help them stay awake and focus on boring, repetitive tasks. And when we reviewed the literature on attention-deficit drugs again in 1990 we found that all children, whether they had attention problems or not, responded to stimulant drugs the same way. Moreover, while the drugs helped children settle down in class, they actually increased activity in the playground. Stimulants generally have the same effects for all children and adults. They enhance the ability to concentrate, especially on tasks that are not inherently interesting or when one is fatigued or bored, but they don't improve broader learning abilities.

And just as in the many dieters who have used and abandoned similar drugs to lose weight, the effects of stimulants on children with attention problems fade after prolonged use. Some experts have argued that children with A.D.D. wouldn't develop such tolerance because their brains were somehow different. But in fact, the loss of appetite and sleeplessness in children first prescribed attention-deficit drugs do fade, and, as we now know, so do the effects on behavior. They apparently develop a tolerance to the drug, and thus its efficacy disappears. Many parents who take their children off the drugs find that behavior worsens, which most likely confirms their belief that the drugs work. But the behavior worsens because the children's bodies have become adapted to the drug. Adults may have similar reactions if they suddenly cut back on coffee, or stop smoking.

TO date, no study has found any long-term benefit of attention-deficit medication on academic performance, peer relationships or behavior problems, the very things we would most want to improve. Until recently, most studies of these drugs had not been properly randomized, and some of them had other methodological flaws.

But in 2009, findings were published from a well-controlled study that had been going on for more than a decade, and the results were very clear. The study randomly assigned almost 600 children with attention problems to four treatment conditions. Some received medication alone, some cognitive-behavior therapy alone, some medication plus therapy, and some were in a community-care control group that received no systematic treatment. At first this study suggested that medication, or medication plus therapy, produced the best results. However, after three years, these effects had faded, and by eight years there was no evidence that medication produced any academic or behavioral benefits

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Also as had haoppened in the US antipsycotic drugs are being forced on children, for conditions they have not even been approved for or shown to be of any benefit to the health.     Does society benefit form this.  It seems the drug compagnies profits do. Also it is know that people, both adults and children are easier to control when druged. So is this also benefiting doctors, teachers, parents, and the employers of parents, who want their employees working instead of focusing on caring for their children.

 

Yesterday's Ottawa Citizen

Prescriptions to Children of second-generation antipsychotics on the rise

 

 

 

The number of children with at least one prescription for some of the most potent psychiatric drugs on the market increased about fourfold in the course of a decade, new Canadian research has found.

Appearing in this month’s issue of the Canadian Journal of Psychiatry, the study shows a "striking" increase in the rate of the prescribing of so-called second-generation or “atypical” antipsychotics to children aged seven and older. The most common diagnoses were for attention deficit/hyperactivity disorder and conduct disorders.

While the data comes from the province of Manitoba, researchers suspect they reflect what’s occurring across the country and are urging doctors to be vigilant for serious adverse events, given the drugs’ “potential for significant harm.”

 

.................................
 
Side-effects can include dramatic weight gain, elevated blood fats and abnormal and uncontrollable muscle movements of the face, mouth and tongue.

Some of the drugs also have been linked to insulin resistance in children, a condition that increases the risk of diabetes and heart disease later in life.

Last month, Abilify became the first and only second-generation antipsychotic to receive Health Canada approval for use in children, but only for the treatment of schizophrenia in teens aged 15 to 17.

Yet the new research shows an "extremely significant" surge in off-label (meaning not Health Canada-approved) prescribing of antipsychotics to children, said lead author Silvia Alessi-Severini.

The product monographs clearly state that their safety and efficacy has not been assessed in children, however, they were still prescribed,” said Alessi-Severini, an assistant professor in the faculty of pharmacy at the University of Manitoba in Winnipeg.

Many of the children did not even have a diagnosis for which the drugs have been approved for use in adults, she said.

Most of the prescriptions — more than 70 per cent — were written by general practitioners, and not by specialists.

 

......................................

 

 

The total number of prescriptions for the newer antipsychotics also increased significantly, from 2,746 in 1999, to 21,320 in 2008. The drugs were used to treat children with autism and mood disorders, but the real growth was for children with a diagnosis of ADHD or conduct disorder.

 

Boys represented the fastest growing group of antipsychotic users, a "sex split" researchers said could reflect the fact boys are more likely than girls to be diagnosed with autism and ADHD.

The percentage of children prescribed an antipsychotic in combination with the ADHD drug methylphenidate (the active ingredient in Ritalin) also increased dramatically during the decade, from 16 per cent in 1999, to 45 per cent in 2008.

Read more: http://www.canada.com/health/Prescriptions+second+generation+antipsychotics+rise/6067755/story.html#ixzz1l5cXZu22

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SO why do we allow doctors, to force children to take drugs, that have not been proven to help the children, but have been proven to cause significant harm, who's effects last a lifetime. 

 

And who is speaking in defence of these children. Is speaking out and defending children from abuse a task  the church can play, as a social justice issue?

 

 

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If it is not bad enough that many children are being drugged with drugs that have not been approved for their "illness". Many of thiose with "illnesses" like ADD might not even be ill but just different.

In July the Globe and Mail also published this article about the debate the revision of the DSM, which is the book that defines what is an illnees, and what is just being different.

 

 

Where is its mind? What the battle over the ‘bible’ says about psychiatry

 insurance companies now require a DSM-based diagnosis before they will reimburse prescription drugs on health plans, and courts use it to define insanity.

 

The manual’s flashy exactitude, however exaggerated, dovetailed profitably with the interests of drug companies, which were further revolutionizing psychiatry with psychoactive drugs, starting with the tranquillizer Thorazine in 1954 and by no means peaking with Prozac in 1987. It all helped popularize the theory that mental illness is caused by chemical imbalances in the brain.

 

Never mind that the effectiveness of the drugs is uncertain (placebos often work just as well) or that the theory is widely disputed. By now, the alignment of pharmaceutical expertise with ever-more diagnostic categories, glued together by the medical-insurance industry, has completely changed the shape of North American mental health.

 

Fewer than 10 per cent of U.S. psychiatrists offer psychotherapy as a service any more. But 10 per cent of North American boys now take drugs for attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder, and in the past decade diagnoses of childhood bipolar disorder have risen at least fortyfold. According to a survey by the National Institutes of Health, 46 per cent of American adults fit the DSM criteria for at least one mental illness.

 

“By the age of 32, half the people will have qualified for an anxiety disorder, 40 per cent for a depressive disorder,” Dr. Frances says, by way of criticizing the new edition’s ever-morphing, expanding definitions of mental illness.

 

An Rx for excess, with kids on antipsychotics

But the bestselling drugs in the United States these days, in dollar terms, are antipsychotics – a serious class of psychoactive medication now being given to more than half a million children.

 

At 5 per cent of all prescriptions ($14-billion worth), they outsell even cholesterol-lowering pills and antidepressants.

 

“Originally they were used for schizophrenia,” Dr. Frances says. “Then it was going to be for bipolar disorder too. And now they’re being used widely in nursing homes for agitation amongst the elderly, even though they may shorten life expectancy. And for kids who act up. And for people in general who become irritable.”

 

 
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For those who do not think this is a political issue, remebr that the tax payer is paying for the drugs. Also look at the numbers.  From the above Globe story.

 

10% of people over 6 are being drugged for "mental illnesses and developmental/learning  disabilities"

 

10% of all boys in North America are being drugged for ADD and ADHD. With drugs like Ritalian (Speed) and antipsycotics.

 

Drugs like the Ritilan have been proven not to work long term, (albeit they might help short term), while the drug compagnies have not even tried to defend the idea that  antipsycotics help those with ADD.

 

BMean while antiphyscotics at 5 per cent of all prescriptions ($14-billion worth), th outsell all other types of drugs, even cholesterol-lowering pills and antidepressants

 

 

I would also add that many being drugged are those types of people who in the past grew up to be great social reformers. While 10% of boys are being drugged for ADHD, the numbers in schools with many poor and minority children, the numbers being drugged rise to 30%

 

 

 

 

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Alex, sorry I haven't read everything over carefully, just a quick skim.  For the most part though, I don't think that doctors are automatically writing prescriptions for kids the minute they are diagnosed.  I have no stats, but I do know some people who get by just by having a system that was first implemented by their parents.  They were given tools to focus on what needed to get done.  I thought that this is how ADHD was treated first, and if it didn't work then medication would be tried.

 

The elementary school I went to had a partially integrated program for students with learning disabilities.  For math and english they would have their own class, they didnt take french, but for most other subjects they were mixed in with the other classes.  Many of the students also had behaviour problems.  I saw how some of them would lose their temper way faster than others.  I also saw how dangerous it could be when they decided to throw a chair at someone with all their strength and how much effort it would take for a much larger teacher to restrain to keep everyone safe.  If taking medication for ADHD helps with such behaviour, I can understand why a parent would want it.  I would hope that if there were no improvement then the medication would be stopped.

 

Sorry if I'm completely off, I'll try to look at everything before I post to here again.

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I agree that most doctors are not automatically writing presriptions. Howevr they are writing them without regards to the conditions the child lives in. This is because doctors are not educators, social workers, nor political scientists, which are the professionals that have the training and skills that deal with what is causing these disabilities among many .

 

Also they depend on both short term studies that the drug compagnies (pushers) promote, and what they see in the short term.  Ask any recovering drug addict, or alcoholic. They will tell you that at first the drugs were great. How much good they did for them. But that in the long term, the drugs and drinking made them sickier and unhappier.

 

All studies point to the fact that long term drug use has no benefit at best, and that it actually robs the patrient of other abilities they have.

 

Short term use can help, but rarely do doctors prescribe drugs based on long term use and effect.

 

 

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Doctors also live in a society and are not able to judge behaviour outside of their society very well. An example of this is the issue of sexual desire.

 

Before the sexual revolution having to great of a desire for sex was bad, especially among women. Thus the DSM listed nymphomania ( and satrism among men, althrough it was nevr taken seriously as an illness) and the drug compagnies developed drugs for it.  In 1980 Nymhomania was removed, however since science is based on Platonism and Aristotelian philophy where there is only one norm, so and anyone who deviates from the norm is bad/sick, so  they added an illness for those without enough sexual desire, hypoactive sexual desire disorder.

 

No one in medical school ever consider that it is possible to be healthy and be different from the norms of society.

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I  wonder if a child is not given medicine to assist with focusing if he has ADHD, would they be able to concentrate enough to keep up with their classmates and develop the fundamentals of learning? If a child cannot focus long enough to learn to read and write properly, would this not be more detrimental?

 

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No I agree, if problems are left without assistance, there is a price to pay. 

 

I just and other questions the fact that too often drugs are the only assitance offered. Likely because doctors are trained to prescribe drugs, and are not equiped to deal with problems, other than using a medical model; of disability. This is a modle where the disability is only a problem of the individual. 

 

To change the way a child learns, and offer accomadation at school to his/her disabilty is beyond the doctor or parents ability, also problems and barriers that parents have in providing the much extra time a child nneds at home is also not beyond the doctor. As well while some might blame the parent, the parent is also limited by the demands of society as well as his or her own barriers (racism, poverty, disability, and so on)

 

This is why this is also a political and scoietal problem. Perhaps these children need things that only we can provide if society accepts difference, and provides way for people to look at ways of living that pushed them or their children into using drugs. 

 

Perhaps as they say, It takes a Village to raise a child, and perhaps the community needs to take this responsibility back in different ways than in just paying taxes.

 

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As a teacher, I've seen the difference between a child who is on medication and the same child without medication and the difference is beyond night and day for some kids.  I've had (and have) students who are like superballs shot in to the classroom who do nothing all day but bounce off of everything and everyone around them.  They fall farther and farther behind in school and so does the rest of the class when the teacher is spending half of the day or more trying to manage the behaviour of one child who can't stop moving and talking.  Is medication the answer?  Maybe not.  Certainly it isn't the answer in all cases, BUT it also isn't the answer to have kids who are this disruptive to the learning of others in classes where their behaviour is putting everyone farther behind.  Yes, there are all kinds of strategies for dealing with kids diagnosed with ADHD, but even when used really well they are very time consuming and take away from the time that other kids in the class need and deserve for their own learning.  Put several kids in the same class who are ADHD or who have behaviour problems and the time spent on classroom management multiplies. 

 

I've evacuated my class at least half a dozen times this year because of 3 students who have "melt downs" and start throwing things including shoes, garbage cans and even chairs.  I can't even tell you how many times I've managed to catch the child pre-explosion and talk them down.  I have other kids in my class whom I've barely spoken to all year and whom I can almost never help, even though some of them are working 2 or 3 grades below level, because all of my time is spent on keeping a lid on the others.  Students regularly ask if they can work in the hall to get away from the disruptions and I've had two parents call because their kids feel sick about coming to school in this environment.  I happen to know for sure that the most disruptive student has a diagnosis of ADHD, and when he was medicated in grades 1 and 2 he was an even tempered, motivated little boy.  His parents have since stopped medicating him and his grades have dropped significantly, he gets in to fights several times a week and he's interrupting class almost continuously.  If drugs aren't the answer, what is?

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In my first year of university I was a day camp counsellor. We had one child with ADHD, and although he was cute as a button, he made our days much more stressful and hard to get through. I understand that his disoder is not his fault, and I would imagine it is  stressful to be overstimulated all the time by the environment for the child himself.

Because of his hyperactivity he played with the younger children in the camp and his activeness encouraged them to not pay attention to games and activities and to stray from the group. In a few minutes we could go from having one misbehaved hyper child, to about 5 misbehaved hyper children. I could see how it would make the job of an educator even more demandign when most of the teachers energy is focused on keeping a child seated and behaving. This takes away from the other student's right to learn in the classroom and their right to individualized instruction when they need extra help.

 

I read this article in yesterday's Toronto Star:

Kindergarten attention span predicts good work habits down the road: research

January 30, 2012

Comments on this storyComments(1)

Vinay Menon
STAFF REPORTER

Kindergarten students with poor attention spans are less likely to develop strong workplace skills compared to peers, a new study has found.

“For children, the classroom is the workplace, and this is why productive, task-oriented behaviour in that context later translates to the labour market,” said lead researcher Linda Pagani, a professor at the University of Montreal and CHU Sainte-Justine.

The study started in 1997 when teachers first rated 1,369 kindergarten students on how well they worked autonomously and with classmates. The students, all from low-income areas in Montreal, were also assessed for self-control, self-confidence, as well as their ability to follow directions and complete assignments on time.

The children were then tracked through Grade 6. Three natural groupings emerged: those with high, medium, and low classroom engagement. The kids who fell into the latter group in kindergarten were more likely to remain disengaged all the way through.

In the past, researchers have found that kindergarten characteristics predict whether you’re going to finish high school or not, said Pagani. “In fact, these characteristics will also predict what kind of employment earnings you’re going to have.”

In studying childhood development, Pagani says “attention skills” have traditionally been overshadowed by “cognitive skills.” But that is now changing.

“It’s not just achievement that we want for kids,” she said. “We don’t subsidize public education just for having smart people turn out later on. We also want people who can become part of the workforce.”

The study was published this month in the Journal of Abnormal Child Psychology.

 

 

 

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With everything I am sure there are different levels of ADHD.  In extreme cases  there may be no other way to cope.  But I would think it would be a last resort.   How about more ssupport for parents and teachers (and more money from the government which might mean higher taxes).  How about teachers' aids who work with the child on a one on one basis in the classroom and take him out if he gets disruptive.  How about changes in diet, rest and exercise.  How about teaching the child coping skills.   and how about recognizing, accommodating, and even celebrating different learning styles.    1 in 10 boys have ADD?   I find that hard to believe.   

 

Looking back, I am quite sure I have many of the traits.   But it was unheard of way back then.   When my children were little an incompetent teenage swimming instructor told me that she couldn't teach her class of six kids when three of them had ADD.  Which three?  Well, two of them were mine.   Grandson seems to have some problem getting started on his work, and sometimes prefers to work by himself - standing at a side table rather than sitting in a group.  His teacher last year yelled at him and sent him to the principal's office for 'being bad'.  That was grade one.   His grade two teacher reminds him to get started, and gives him permission to work standing up or even to take his work out into the hallway, and of his own accord he is working at his desk more often now.   None of us have been doped.   Thankfully.

 

My friend's grandson was on retilin from k on.   When the local doctor wouldn't perscribe it, his mother took him to a doctor in Maine.    He is an adult now - a drug addict.   He was living on the streets until recently.  The last I heard he is in jail for theft.  He blames his parents and the school system for starting him on drugs.

 

 

 

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In the early 1980's I worked in the Psychology Department of the Hospital for Sick Children in Toronto.  At that time the Chief of Psychiatry was warning about the misdiagnosing and over medication of some children.

 

Yes there are children who benefit from the medication.  However there is no benefit and in some cases detrimental affects to children who are misdiagnosed.

 

At that time there was a concern about general practioners prescribing Ritalin without understanding the underlying psychological and physiological criteria for the disorders.  Parents have to understand that while GPs can prescribe these medications they may be doing so on a limited knowledge or influenced by drug company sales' pitches.

 

Are questions being asked about diet ... is little Johnny or Joanie eating sugar coated breakfasts, are they eating breakfast at all...what's in that lunch box.  Questions about home life .. is home chaotic .... Has their hearing, eyesight been checked. etc etc.

 

Most GPs do not take or have the time to make adequate assessments.  A full psych evaluation requires a minimum of two hours depending on the child's age.

 

One of the psychologists in our department made a telling comment, that I still remember today, she said that medical staff are so attuned to working with the "abnormal" that they may miss the "normal".  The principle is one of a self fulfilling prophecy:  people only go to the doctor or hospital because they are "sick" so all behaviours become illness related.  Her suggestion was that hospitals, particularly those like HSC, should run day cares so that "normal" behaviour could be observed.

 

Sometimes children are bouncy, it is what being a child is all about.  Their world is full of new and exciting things that provide stimulation and distraction.  Without taking the time to discover the source of that bounce we will squash that natural enthusiasm at our own detriment because it will make all our futures devoid of joy and wonder.

 

 

 

Either this guy was naturally hyper, or he hopped on enough sugar and caffeine to give a heat attack to a water buffalo.
      Rick Riordan

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Alex wrote:

SO why do we allow doctors, to force children to take drugs, that have not been proven to help the children, but have been proven to cause significant harm, who's effects last a lifetime. 

 

as a parent of three children with ADHD, i shake my head at your description of doctors forcing my children to take drugs.  i'd laugh out loud if i wasn't so insulted...

 

do you HONESTLY THINK that i would simply toss something in my kids mouth just because a doctor said so?? 

 

if you honestly think that, then just say so and i will open a can of whoopass on you so fast your head will spin, pal.

 

 

Alex wrote:

And who is speaking in defence of these children. Is speaking out and defending children from abuse a task  the church can play, as a social justice issue?

 

 

fuck off.

 

the fact that you feel you need to employ the church to prevent me from making decisions on the care of my own children is offensive.

 

and the fact that you consider the medications that i choose for my children to be a social justice issue makes me question your understanding of social justice...

 

man your stock with me just took a nose dive, alex...

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Alex wrote:

If it is not bad enough that many children are being drugged with drugs that have not been approved for their "illness". Many of thiose with "illnesses" like ADD might not even be ill but just different.


 

 

just different, eh??

 

wow.  don't get all technical on me.

 

Alex wrote:

Doctors also live in a society and are not able to judge behaviour outside of their society very well.

 

what a load of bullshit, alex.

 

really.  how on earth do you come up with something like this?? 

 

first, you accuse me of FORCING my child to take poison.

second, you call on my church to strip me of my parental responsibilities.

third, you accuse all doctors of being incompetent, and not taking the time to understand their specialties or their patients.

 

wow.  such sweeping generalizations... you must be exhausted.

 

Alex wrote:

No one in medical school ever consider that it is possible to be healthy and be different from the norms of society.

 

that is so false that its laughable, alex.

 

get over yourself.

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Alex wrote:

For those who do not think this is a political issue, remebr that the tax payer is paying for the drugs.

 

nope.

 

i, and all the other parents i know of with children who are treated with medications for ADHD pay for these out of our own pocket.

 

do you mean to tell me that i could have had all you taxpayers footing the bill for me all these years??  cause if thats the case, i'm going to have to find a way to make the health care system pay in some other way...

 

 

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Alex wrote:

 

I just and other questions the fact that too often drugs are the only assitance offered. Likely because doctors are trained to prescribe drugs, and are not equiped to deal with problems, other than using a medical model; of disability. This is a modle where the disability is only a problem of the individual. 

 

bullshit.

 

i was offered so many options by my physician that i was overwhelmed.  your statement that doctors are only trained to prescribe drugs shows you have SUCH a poor grasp of what reality is for parents and children in the health care system, alex...

 

you really have no idea what you are talking about.  you are just spouting statements that you read or heard somewhere.

 

have you stopped to think about how much goes into parenting, at all?? 

 

if you care to listen, i'll tell you about it.  give me time, though... i'm so pissed off right now i don't think i would be able to talk to you with any respect at the moment...

 

Alex wrote:

To change the way a child learns, and offer accomadation at school to his/her disabilty is beyond the doctor or parents ability,

 

nope, you haven't a clue what you are talking about here.  not at all.

Alex wrote:

also problems and barriers that parents have in providing the much extra time a child nneds at home is also not beyond the doctor.

 

so, now its my fault.  i'm just not spending enough time with my kids.

 

bite me.

 

Alex wrote:

As well while some might blame the parent, the parent is also limited by the demands of society as well as his or her own barriers (racism, poverty, disability, and so on)

 

REALLY.

 

where did you dig up this stuff, alex?? 

Alex wrote:

This is why this is also a political and scoietal problem. Perhaps these children need things that only we can provide if society accepts difference, and provides way for people to look at ways of living that pushed them or their children into using drugs. 

 

... and now i'm a drug pusher.

 

again, bite me.

 

Alex wrote:

 

Perhaps as they say, It takes a Village to raise a child, and perhaps the community needs to take this responsibility back in different ways than in just paying taxes.

 

 

like, taking my parental responsibilities away from me??

 

and you wonder why parents are so frightened about asking for help...

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loona

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Really? A drug addict blames someone else for his addiction? Shocking.

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loona

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This. This squared.

@Alex:

Ya know, I'm so sick and tired of this b.s. Not many parents WANT to medicate their children. Sure, there are bad parents, but most of us are doing the very best we can for our kids. We usually try 10 or 15 different things before we go the drug route. MOSTLY because we've been fed this crap and are scared we're just drugging the poor kid into submission. So instead we make them suffer for years longer than they need to, because we're afraid of medications. PUHLEEZE.

And if you think it's *easy* to get a doc to prescribe ritalin, I suggest you go try.

And let me guess, you're also one of these people who thinks that Autism is over-diagnosed?

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loona wrote:

This. This squared.

@Alex:

Ya know, I'm so sick and tired of this b.s. Not many parents WANT to medicate their children. Sure, there are bad parents, but most of us are doing the very best we can for our kids. We usually try 10 or 15 different things before we go the drug route. MOSTLY because we've been fed this crap and are scared we're just drugging the poor kid into submission. So instead we make them suffer for years longer than they need to, because we're afraid of medications. PUHLEEZE.

And if you think it's *easy* to get a doc to prescribe ritalin, I suggest you go try.

And let me guess, you're also one of these people who thinks that Autism is over-diagnosed?

 

HEAR HEAR.

 

i'm with you ALL THE WAY,  sister.  feeling your pain, shaking your hand.

chemgal's picture

chemgal

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loona wrote:

And let me guess, you're also one of these people who thinks that Autism is over-diagnosed?

Loona, I don't see how that statement contributes to the conversation, and I think it's bordering on a (odd) personal attack.

 

I do agree with you and Sighs about your points.  I can also see the point that Alex is bringing up though.  I have personally seen doctors a little too eager to prescribe pain medication without caring about the cause of the pain.  I imagine some doctors are the same with medications for ADHD.  Some parents are willing to do their very best for their children and have looked into tools to help (which may or may not be combined with medication).  Some parents may need to be taught that there things that may help their child other than medications.  Some parents just don't care and want the easy fix.

Alex's picture

Alex

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Ok If you want to tell me to fuck off, just so me one study which shows that drugging children help them in the long term.. I have posted several links to news articles which explain in plain english that drugging children on a long term basis, does not help them.  They only show short term benefits, which disappear in the long term. Plus there is a lot of proof of the long term negative side effects.

 

Just telling kids, who are different, that they are bad or sick, ( as oppose to a challenge to societies norm.) harms kids. Look at the damage we have done to LGBT and First Nations kids, who were told they were sick, or bad, or unacceptable to God and the community. Look at the mental health and adiction problems within the LGBT and First Nations communities that result when kids are told they are bad or sick, when in reality they are just different.

 

 

Not only that, but can we imagine the world without great minds and there discoveries, which would have resulted if drugging them for being different had been an option in the past. Einstein is a good example of someone on the autism spectrum. he did not speak until 6 or 7, he had poor social schools, and was not a great student. If he had been drugged, and not allowed to be who he was, he would have never developed his theories, which he did when he was daydreaming while holding a dead end job, after finishing technical school, where his teachers had refused to provide him withreferences becasue he was difficult and unpleasant.

 

 

sighsnootles's picture

sighsnootles

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chemgal wrote:

Loona, I don't see how that statement contributes to the conversation, and I think it's bordering on a (odd) personal attack.

 

pardon me... have you read what alex accused us of??

 

he accused us of everything from poisoning our children to not spending any time with them.  then recommended that the UCC intervene to 'protect our children' from us.

 

what loona said was the equivalent of giving alex a nobel peace prize compared to what he accused us of in his posts.

 

chemgal wrote:

I do agree with you and Sighs about your points.  I can also see the point that Alex is bringing up though.  I have personally seen doctors a little too eager to prescribe pain medication without caring about the cause of the pain.  I imagine some doctors are the same with medications for ADHD.

 

as loona pointed out, if you REALLY think its so easy to get these medications, chemgal, then you need to go and give it a shot.

 

i cannot tell you how many times i wound up in tears attempting to get a prescription filled... the system has SO MANY checks and balances you'd think i was trying to purchase a thermonuclear warhead.

 

chemgal wrote:

 Some parents are willing to do their very best for their children and have looked into tools to help (which may or may not be combined with medication).  Some parents may need to be taught that there things that may help their child other than medications.  Some parents just don't care and want the easy fix.

 

again, if you think its so easy to get these medications for our kids, then i encourage you to go and give it a shot.

 

trust me when i say that if a parent was just looking for 'the easy fix', THIS AIN'T IT.  there is nothing easy about getting this medication. 

 

AT ALL.

 

 

Alex's picture

Alex

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loona wrote:

This. This squared.

@Alex:

Ya know, I'm so sick and tired of this b.s. Not many parents WANT to medicate their children. Sure, there are bad parents, but most of us are doing the very best we can for our kids. We usually try 10 or 15 different things before we go the drug route. MOSTLY because we've been fed this crap and are scared we're just drugging the poor kid into submission. So instead we make them suffer for years longer than they need to, because we're afraid of medications. PUHLEEZE.

And if you think it's *easy* to get a doc to prescribe ritalin, I suggest you go try.

And let me guess, you're also one of these people who thinks that Autism is over-diagnosed?

 

I am saying that the studies say that in the long term, drugging dioes not help. What does help is accomadation, and allowing different kind of help, etc. More play time out side, among trees and grass, instead of concrete playgrounds at schhol. Or in some cases Kids are actually locked in cages at recess in order to "protect" them from hurting themselves.

 

I do not think autism is over diagnosed. I have been diagnosed with PDD NOS which is on the autism scale. I just believe in the many tenants of the social model of disability as opposed to  many tennants of the medical model of disability.

 

 

As a gay man living with Autism, I find it insulting and damaging when people attck me and harm me because I am gay, and I blame it on homophobia. Equally I blame ableism when people say I am sick, or bad, because I have autism, when in realityy I am just different. I excel at somethings and struggle with other things, just like evryone else, However unlike everyone, these barriers I face in life are suppose to be solved by drugs. When no studies support this, When other studies show that drugging harms people. All the while, when we drug drugs, it enables society to deny the real problems in the world. Things caused by the way "normal" people live. Destroying the environment, both globally and locally, creating unhealthy foods, and bad diets. Forcing people to conform to norms, that are not healthy for many, if not all?   Treating many people, as a means to an end, as oppose to the fact that all people are equally loved by God, just as they are. 

 

 

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sighsnootles

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Alex wrote:

Ok If you want to tell me to fuck off, just so me one study which shows that drugging children help them in the long term..

 

when you say 'druggin children', what are you referring to, alex??

 

are you suggesting that i'm giving my children crystal meth??

 

cause if you are wanting to know what research i looked at when i chose to put my children on adderall, i can tell you right off the top of my head that the pediatrician i worked with, dr. bergh in ottawa, has written a book about all this.

 

read that, as a start.

 

Alex wrote:

I have posted several links to news articles which explain in plain english that drugging children on a long term basis, does not help them.

 

sure it does.  not to mention that many kids figure out how to make their brains work on their own, and find that after awhile they don't need the medication anymore.  my daughter being a case in point... during grade nine, her tutor noticed that she had figured out how to stimulate her brain on her own, and we were able to stop the medication.  my son will probably be on it for a bit yet... he notices right away how much better he can concentrate when he's had the adderall.  same with my youngest daughter... she will ask me for it if i forget to give it to her, cause she just can't concentrate without it yet.

 

studies have shown that kids who take the medication consistently, even on the weekends, are better able to socialize as well... children who had 'medication holidays' (didn't take the medication on weekends or holidays) had exactly the same socialization problems as unmedicated children.

 

Alex wrote:

 They only show short term benefits, which disappear in the long term. Plus there is a lot of proof of the long term negative side effects.

 

not at all.

 

again, i encourage you to read dr. burghs book about this.

Alex wrote:

Just telling kids, who are different, that they are bad or sick, ( as oppose to a challenge to societies norm.) harms kids.

 

are you actually suggesting that i am telling my kids that they are 'bad' or 'sick'?? 

 

would you say that to a parent who gets a prescription for glasses for their kids??  you think that a kid who wears glasses to help them see better is being told that they are 'bad' or 'sick' because they have to wear glasses??

 

not at all.

 

however, i GARANTEE that telling parents who are trying really hard to help their children that they are shitty parents and should have their parental responsibilites taken away harms kids, though...

 

THAT is what the problem is.  your stupid attitude.

 


chemgal wrote:

Look at the damage we have done to LGBT and First Nations kids, who were told they were sick, or bad, or unacceptable to God and the community. Look at the mental health and adiction problems within the LGBT and First Nations communities that result when kids are told they are bad or sick, when in reality they are just different.

 

HOLD IT, ALEX...

 

it wasn't enough that you accuse me of poisoning my children, of not spending enough time with them, or suggested that i need to have my parental rights removed...

 

NOW you are accusing me of being just as bad as a priest who sexually molested a child, or a fundamentalist who tells a kid that they are an abomination?!?!\

 

REALLY??

 

i REALLY question your understanding social justice, alex.  if you HONESTLY THINK that i am the parental equivalent of a child molestor or a metally abusive authority figure, then  i don't think that i'm going to be able to take anything you say all that seriously anymore.

 

Alex wrote:

 

Not only that, but can we imagine the world without great minds and there discoveries, which would have resulted if drugging them for being different had been an option in the past.

 

you obviously don't know anything about this stuff, and you are more interested in making all kinds of baseless allegations of abuse than actually taking the time to understand anything about it.

 

Alex wrote:

Einstein is a good example of someone on the autism spectrum. he did not speak until 6 or 7, he had poor social schools, and was not a great student. If he had been drugged, and not allowed to be who he was, he would have never developed his theories, which he did when he was daydreaming while holding a dead end job, after finishing technical school, where his teachers had refused to provide him withreferences becasue he was difficult and unpleasant.

 

 

 

ha!!  you think that just because you can blather on about einstein that means you know anything??

 

please.

 

darwin.  newton.  sir john a mcdonald.

 

i can name drop too, you know.

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sighsnootles

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Alex wrote:

 

I am saying that the studies say that in the long term, drugging dioes not help.

 

wrong.

 

Alex wrote:

What does help is accomadation, and allowing different kind of help, etc.

 

you say that like its mutually exclusive...

 

you think that its either meds or other??  that you can't do both??!?!

 

Alex wrote:

More play time out side, among trees and grass, instead of concrete playgrounds at schhol. Or in some cases Kids are actually locked in cages at recess in order to "protect" them from hurting themselves.

 

please.

 

now you are accusing me of not giving my kid enough excercise, and locking them in a cage.

 

you don't have a clue what you are talking about. 

 

Alex wrote:

I do not think autism is over diagnosed. I have been diagnosed with PDD NOS which is on the autism scale. I just believe in the many tenants of the social model of disability as opposed to  many tennants of the medical model of disability.

 

ah, you are going to name drop again, are ya??

 

i believe in the theory of gravity, the tenets of the evolutionary model, and floridated toothpaste.

 

see, i'm obviously just as knowledgable as you are.

Alex wrote:

As a gay man living with Autism, I find it insulting and damaging when people attck me and harm me because I am gay, and I blame it on homophobia.

 

as a human being, i also find it damaging when people attack gay people because they are gay.

 

not sure what the autism thing has to do with that, but as i have a son with aspergers syndrome, i am sure i'm down with that as well.

 

Alex wrote:

Equally I blame ableism when people say I am sick, or bad, because I have autism, when in realityy I am just different.

 

as a human being, i also find it damaging when people attack or harm someone because they are autistic.

 

Alex wrote:

I excel at somethings and struggle with other things, just like evryone else, However unlike everyone, these barriers I face in life are suppose to be solved by drugs.

 

WRONG.

 

are you saying that autism = ADHD?!?!

 

geez, alex, even i know that isn't true.

 

Alex wrote:

When no studies support this, When other studies show that drugging harms people.

 

not at all.

 

there are many studies that show these drugs are helpful, both in the short term and the long term.

 

i've already suggested one. 

 

Alex wrote:

All the while, when we drug drugs, it enables society to deny the real problems in the world. Things caused by the way "normal" people live. Destroying the environment, both globally and locally, creating unhealthy foods, and bad diets. Forcing people to conform to norms, that are not healthy for many, if not all?   Treating many people, as a means to an end, as oppose to the fact that all people are equally loved by God, just as they are. 

 

 

so, now you are going to accuse me of destroying the environment, creating unhealthy foods, and blame me for bad diets.

 

and invoke the name of god.

 

wow.  according to you, i'm practically satan!!

 

good thing i know better than to listen to people who haven't got a clue what they are talking about. 

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Alex

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Call me stupid if you wish. People have been calling me names all my life just because I am different . Faggoot, Idiot, stupid are all names I have been called, just because I am different. And whether I am gay, or live with autism, the barriers I face in life are not caused so much by being gay or living with autism, but by people who think I am bad or sick because I am , and thus call me stupid or a fag.

 

To me it is the same thing, if you dehumanise people based on ability or sexual orientation.

 

 

And for your information, cystal meth and ritilan are more or less just different variantions of the same drug. 

 

I am not name dropping, I am just using Einstein as an example of what people who are different can achieve in life, if left undrugged.

 

 

As for the names you mention, I believe only Newton, had the characteristics of a peron on the autism spectrum.  I know a little about John A, and I do not believe he demonstrated those qualities. As to Dariwn, I do not know anything about him.

 

 

 

You say I do not know anything. Well, I just posted several links to news stories about large long term studies, that show drugging kids you are different harms them.

 

Also as is common with people on the autism sprectrum, I have an inordinate preoccupation with certaim subjects. Mine happen to be philosophy, politics, and religion. I am just applying my knowledge derived from this to health care, and have been active as a disabilty rights activist for over 20 years. 

 

 

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chemgal

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sighsnootles wrote:

 


chemgal wrote:

Look at the damage we have done to LGBT and First Nations kids, who were told they were sick, or bad, or unacceptable to God and the community. Look at the mental health and adiction problems within the LGBT and First Nations communities that result when kids are told they are bad or sick, when in reality they are just different.

 

Trying to catch up with everything here, but I never wrote that.

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Alex

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ALos I am not blaming parents./ I am putting the responsibilty on all of society.  Many school only have concrete paygrounds for recess, and some schools do place kids, in cages. Last month there was a story about a school that had turned their outdoow ring into a cage, in order to protect the ir special needs kids.

 

 

 

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sighsnootles

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Alex wrote:

Call me stupid if you wish. People have been calling me names all my life just because I am different . Faggoot, Idiot, stupid are all names I have been called, just because I am different. And whether I am gay, or live with autism, the barriers I face in life are not caused so much by being gay or living with autism, but by people who think I am bad or sick because I am , and thus call me stupid or a fag.

 

 

i'm not challenging you based on who you ARE, alex.

 

i am challenging you based on what you SAID.

 

that is a BIG DIFFERENCE.

 

Alex wrote:

To me it is the same thing, if you dehumanise people based on ability or sexual orientation.

 

i am not challenging you on what you are.  your sexual orientation or your abilities are not what i am having trouble with.

 

what i am challenging you on is WHAT YOU SAID.

 

when you say that i don't spend enough time with my kids, that i should have my parental rights taken away, that i am the cause of the destruction of the environment...  THAT is what i am challenging.

 

again, alex, BIG DIFFERENCE.

 

 

Alex wrote:

And for your information, cystal meth and ritilan are more or less just different variantions of the same drug. 

 

so, you ARE saying that i'm giving my kids crystal meth, then??  just wanna make sure...

Alex wrote:

I am not name dropping, I am just using Einstein as an example of what people who are different can achieve in life, if left undrugged.

 

again, i can toss around names too, alex.  don't tempt me.

 

Alex wrote:

As for the names you mention, I believe only Newton, had the characteristics of a peron on the autism spectrum.  I know a little about John A, and I do not believe he demonstrated those qualities. As to Dariwn, I do not know anything about him.

 

so yeah.  go me.

 

Alex wrote:

You say I do not know anything. Well, I just posted several links to news stories about large long term studies, that show drugging kids you are different harms them.

 

here is one that shows the complete opposite....

 

http://www.attentiondeficit-info.com/adhd/

 

as well as the book i suggested to you by dr. r. bergh, thats two pretty major pediatric studies that fly in the face of whatever it is you are attempting to prove here...


bazinga.

 

Alex wrote:

Also as is common with people on the autism sprectrum, I have an inordinate preoccupation with certaim subjects. Mine happen to be philosophy, politics, and religion. I am just applying my knowledge derived from this to health care, and have been active as a disabilty rights activist for over 20 years. 

 

 

wow.  its amazing that you can claim to be so knowledgeable about 'health care', and yet be so completely ignorant about ADHD.

 

i guess that proves that a little knowledge IS a dangerous thing, eh??

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Alex

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It is a lot easier to call people names and insult them, rather than to respond with a logical argument. Just as it is easier to use the medical model of disability, rather than deal with the complex and difficult choices that the social model of disabilty does.  Howevr when even studiesm that are based on the medical model, show that drugging kids with ADD or autism, does not help, you have to ask yourself, if the easy way is the right way.  Is life suppose to be easy, or are we going to accept that it is complex, and that while dealling with life can be hard, it will be made more difficult  if accept easier solutions over more difficult ones, when the easier solutions do not work.

 

 

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sighsnootles

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Alex wrote:

ALos I am not blaming parents./ I am putting the responsibilty on all of society.  Many school only have concrete paygrounds for recess, and some schools do place kids, in cages. Last month there was a story about a school that had turned their outdoow ring into a cage, in order to protect the ir special needs kids.

 

 

 

LOL!!

 

so, you accuse me of drugging my children with crystal meth, not spending enough time with them, locking them in a cage, suggest that i have my parental rights removed...

 

then accuse me of causing the destruction of the environment.

 

and then you have the BALLS to say that you 'are not blaming parents'!?!?!?!

 

ROTFLMAO!

Alex's picture

Alex

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sighsnootles wrote:

 

i'm not challenging you based on who you ARE, alex.

 

i am challenging you based on what you SAID.

 

that is a BIG DIFFERENCE.

 

 

 

Howver I am not saying that drugs do not work. Those who spend a life time doing studies are saying this.

 

What I am asking is why do we continue to drug kids, when they are proven not to work.  

 

When both the science, and adult activists living with ADD and  autism agree. Why are we continuing to drug kids. I do not know of any 7 years old who says." I want drugs". So obviously it is society, school, politicans, doctors and so on who are the ones pushing a solutions that is ineffective at best, and harmful, to both kids and society at large.

 

So hiow does saying this make me stupid?

 

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sighsnootles

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Alex wrote:

It is a lot easier to call people names and insult them, rather than to respond with a logical argument.

 

it very well may be..

 

just like it is probably a lot easier for you to compare me to a child molestor than to actually take the time to UNDERSTAND what it is you are talking about....

 

Alex wrote:

Just as it is easier to use the medical model of disability, rather than deal with the complex and difficult choices that the social model of disabilty does.

 

... or toss around all kinds of trivia in an attempt to bolster your opinion, rather than take the time to understand the complexities of the situation...

 

Alex wrote:

 Howevr when even studiesm that are based on the medical model, show that drugging kids with ADD or autism, does not help,

 

again, i have given you a few studies here already that show that is FALSE.

 

why are your studies so much more relevant than the ones i have posted here?? 

 

gosh, do you think that it could possibly be that you could pretty much find a study that can prove ANYTHING YOU WANT TO??

 

wow... that has NEVER HAPPENED BEFORE!!! 

 

Alex wrote:

 

you have to ask yourself, if the easy way is the right way.

LOL!!

 

again, alex, if you think it is SO EASY to get this medication for your kids, i encourage you to go out and give it a try...

 

this right here proves you have no idea what you are talking about.

Alex wrote:

Is life suppose to be easy, or are we going to accept that it is complex, and that while dealling with life can be hard, it will be made more difficult  if accept easier solutions over more difficult ones, when the easier solutions do not work.

 

medication does work.  i have given you the studies that prove that.

 

it is not easy to give your kids this medication.  i know that from experience.

 

therefore, i think it is safe to say that you don't know what you are talking about.

 

 

Alex's picture

Alex

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sighsnootles wrote:

[

LOL!!

 

so, you accuse me of drugging my children with crystal meth, not spending enough time with them, locking them in a cage, suggest that i have my parental rights removed...

 

then accuse me of causing the destruction of the environment.

 

and then you have the BALLS to say that you 'are not blaming parents'!?!?!?!

 

ROTFLMAO!

 

Where do I accuse you of this?

 

I am accusing society.

I have nevr suggested anyone's parental rights be removed. In fact the only people who have threaten to remove some peoples parental rights, are certain teachers, and social workers, who are trying to convince some parents to give their kids drugs. I have nevr heard of anyone trying to do the same to parents of children who do take ritilan.

 

 

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chemgal

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sighs, maybe things have changed enough that I'm completely wrong about how easy it is to get the medication.  I do know that it used to be used to diagnose ADD.  Kid takes it and a placebo for a while, the parent records their behaviour.  If the kid has ADD they get better when on the med.  If they don't their behaviour gets worse when on it.  That seemed very odd to me that just to get a diagnosis it was done that way, so drug free methods couldn't even be used as a starting point.  Maybe it isn't done that way anymore.

 

I am sure there are some parents looking for a quick fix.  I think it would be good if it isn't that easy to just start using medication for that.  It's unfortunate though if it is impacting people and their families where the medication is best for them.

Alex's picture

Alex

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sighsnootles wrote:

 

 

medication does work.  i have given you the studies that prove that.

 

 

 

You have not given me a link to a long term study. You have just given me a link to a web site with one docotrs opinion, who does not reference any long term study.

 

 

Alex's picture

Alex

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If it is so hard to get drugs like ritilan for kids, than why are 10% of boys in North America on ritilian. 

 

There are tow seperate problems.

 

One is kids being drugged who do not have ADHD, 

 

A second one, is that long term studies show that it does not even work for ADD,

 

Studies can be wrong, but no studies support the idea that drugs help in the long term. 

 

Meanwhile other studies show positive results for other solutions, that are not based on drugs.  Like allowing kids to have access to a healthy environment, like a park with grass and trees, instead of concrete playgrounds.

 

 

Where do the Children Play?

Well I think it's fine, building jumbo planes. 

Or taking a ride on a cosmic train. 

Switch on summer from a slot machine. 

Yes, get what you want to if you want, 'cause you can get anything. 



I know we've come a long way, 

We're changing day to day, 

so tell me, where do the children play? 



Well you roll on roads over fresh green grass. 

For your lorry loads pumping petrol gas. 

And you make them long, and you make them tough. 

But they just go on and on, and it seems that you can't get off. 



Oh, I know we've come a long way, 

We're changing day to day, 

so tell me, where do the children play? 



Well you've cracked the sky, scrapers fill the air. 

But will you keep on building higher 

'til there's no more room up there? 

Will you make us laugh, will you make us cry? 

Will you tell us when to live, will you tell us when to die? 



I know we've come a long way, 

We're changing day to day, 

But tell me, where do the children play?


 

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sighsnootles

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Alex wrote:

 

Howver I am not saying that drugs do not work. Those who spend a life time doing studies are saying this.

 

i have given you studies that show the do work.

 

Alex wrote:

What I am asking is why do we continue to drug kids, when they are proven not to work.  

 

what i am asking is why do you continue to insist that your statement is correct, when i have given you studies that prove the opposite??

 

Alex wrote:

When both the science, and adult activists living with ADD and  autism agree. Why are we continuing to drug kids.

 

these drugs don't help kids with autism.

 

only kids with ADHD.

 

Alex wrote:

I do not know of any 7 years old who says." I want drugs".

 

i doubt you know many 7 year olds period, considering what you have said here... i know that after you compared me to a child molester you won't be meeting any of mine, i can tell you...

 

Alex wrote:

So obviously it is society, school, politicans, doctors and so on who are the ones pushing a solutions that is ineffective at best, and harmful, to both kids and society at large.

 

no, obviously it is a person who thinks they know lots about something they have no clue about, and is making all kinds of groudless and baseless accusations and allegations in an attempt to bolster their lame arguement.

 

Alex wrote:

 

So hiow does saying this make me stupid?

 

 

ummm... cause you still haven't apologized to me for compareing me to a child molestor, even though you clearly have no leg to stand on, and no idea whatsoever what it is you are talking about???

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sighsnootles

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Alex wrote:

I have nevr suggested anyone's parental rights be removed.

 

you certainly did.

 

you asked that the UCC consider taking this on as a social justice issue, and that society needs to step forward and protect these children.

 

what exactly were you trying to say, if it wasn't that i'm somehow harming my children?!?!

 

you really need to rethink your approach, obviously.  i can't believe you have had any success as an advocate for anything with this kind of discourse on your part...

 

Alex wrote:

In fact the only people who have threaten to remove some peoples parental rights, are certain teachers, and social workers, who are trying to convince some parents to give their kids drugs. I have nevr heard of anyone trying to do the same to parents of children who do take ritilan.

 

neither have i, which is why i called you on it so fast.

 

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sighsnootles

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chemgal wrote:

sighs, maybe things have changed enough that I'm completely wrong about how easy it is to get the medication.

 

yep.

 

chemgal wrote:

 I do know that it used to be used to diagnose ADD.  Kid takes it and a placebo for a while, the parent records their behaviour.  If the kid has ADD they get better when on the med.  If they don't their behaviour gets worse when on it.  That seemed very odd to me that just to get a diagnosis it was done that way, so drug free methods couldn't even be used as a starting point.  Maybe it isn't done that way anymore.

 

good grief, chemgal, why is what you are describing such a bad thing?!?!?

 

do you honestly believe that someone would resort to medication without trying everything else first!?!?!

 

why don't we talk about this like glasses... why don't we try the glasses free methods first?? 

 

chemgal wrote:

I am sure there are some parents looking for a quick fix.  I think it would be good if it isn't that easy to just start using medication for that.  It's unfortunate though if it is impacting people and their families where the medication is best for them.

 

or when people accuse parents of being out for a quick fix. 

 

that is a problem.

 

its insulting, its offensive.

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sighsnootles

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Alex wrote:

You have not given me a link to a long term study. You have just given me a link to a web site with one docotrs opinion, who does not reference any long term study.

 

 

 

i have given you the names of two books, one in english, one in french, that talk about ADHD, and are based on all kinds of medical studies.

 

they aren't just these doctors opinions, alex, fer crying in the sink.

 

you need to take the time to actually READ THEM. 

 

you know, like us parents do before we start our kids on medication.

 

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sighsnootles

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Alex wrote:

If it is so hard to get drugs like ritilan for kids, than why are 10% of boys in North America on ritilian. 

 

i'd suggest that number is way off... 

 

ritalin??  i don't know ANYONE on ritalin anymore, and you are suggesting that one out of every ten boys i meet is taking it??

 

secondly, here in manitoba, and in ontario, it is difficult to get these drugs... i'd tell you about it, but i dont think that you care much for reality.

 

you are more interested in fantasy and baseless, vicious allegations against people who don't believe what you do.

Alex wrote:

There are tow seperate problems.

 

One is kids being drugged who do not have ADHD, 

 

yeah, i agree there.  if people are being given drugs for autism, i don't get that... i haven't heard of any drugs to treat autism.

Alex wrote:

A second one, is that long term studies show that it does not even work for ADD,

wrong.

 

Alex wrote:

 

Studies can be wrong, but no studies support the idea that drugs help in the long term. 

 

yes they do.

 

you just don't want to take the time to read them is all.

Alex wrote:

Meanwhile other studies show positive results for other solutions, that are not based on drugs.  Like allowing kids to have access to a healthy environment, like a park with grass and trees, instead of concrete playgrounds.

 

and of course, your studies probably also show that there is simply NO POSSIBLE WAY that someone could use both methods successfully either.

 

 

Alex wrote:

Where do the Children Play?

Well I think it's fine, building jumbo planes. 
Or taking a ride on a cosmic train. 
Switch on summer from a slot machine. 
Yes, get what you want to if you want, 'cause you can get anything. 

I know we've come a long way, 
We're changing day to day, 
so tell me, where do the children play? 

Well you roll on roads over fresh green grass. 
For your lorry loads pumping petrol gas. 
And you make them long, and you make them tough. 
But they just go on and on, and it seems that you can't get off. 

Oh, I know we've come a long way, 
We're changing day to day, 
so tell me, where do the children play? 

Well you've cracked the sky, scrapers fill the air. 
But will you keep on building higher 
'til there's no more room up there? 
Will you make us laugh, will you make us cry? 
Will you tell us when to live, will you tell us when to die? 

I know we've come a long way, 
We're changing day to day, 
But tell me, where do the children play?

 

so, again...

 

i'm to blame for the destruction of the environment.

 

i'm amazed that you have ever successfully advocated for anything.  you completely suck at this.

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Alex

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Drug therapy is based on the medical model of disability.  The medical model proscribes treatments based on studies that use empiricism, or scientific inquiries.

 

 

The studies show that ritilain does not work. No studies have shown that antiphyscotics work.

 

In fact studies have shown that solutions that would be supported by the social model, like changing the way we teach kids, and the way kids live.

 

We have built cities, where it is too dangerous for kids to play outside. Where they are forced to take buses to schools, rather than walk. Where even due to damage to the ozone layer, it is unhealthy for kids to spend too much time in the sun, without chemicals being spread on their bodies.  Where the food we eat is laden with chemical and hormones.

 

Kids with ADHD and autism are often hyper sensitive to certain environmental factors, like loud noises. Perhaps we are like the proverbial canary in the mineshaft. The first to alert  the world to the fact that we are being harmed by the things we do to the environment.

 

So perhaps the solutions are those that correct the way we live. And perhaps those solutions will also benefit all people. Perhaps we are all being affected by too much noise, too much pollution, to busy to slow and take notice.

 

 

 

 

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Alex

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sighsnootles wrote:

 

i'm amazed that you have ever successfully advocated for anything.  you completely suck at this.

 

Again you are insulting me, instead of just claiming thaty I am wrong. I have nevr blamed you for anything.  Hiowever if you treat others like you treat me, calling me stupid, telling me I suck at what I do, instead of just claiming I am wrong, or that I am not very good at presenting my case, than you need to look at yourself. If you call your kids stupid, and tell them you suck, than you might want to look at how that affects them.

 

 

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sighsnootles

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Alex wrote:

Drug therapy is based on the medical model of disability.  The medical model proscribes treatments based on studies that use empiricism, or scientific inquiries.

 

The studies show that ritilain does not work. No studies have shown that antiphyscotics work.

 

my kids are on adderall.  studies show that they work.

 

my kids show that they work, too.

Alex wrote:

In fact studies have shown that solutions that would be supported by the social model, like changing the way we teach kids, and the way kids live.

 

we tried that first...didn't work.

 

then we tried that in combination with the adderall, and it worked great.

 

Alex wrote:

We have built cities, where it is too dangerous for kids to play outside. Where they are forced to take buses to schools, rather than walk.

 

you know what the BIGGEST problem is, alex??

 

people like you.

 

i have to watch my back 24/7, it seems, because EVERYONE ELSE thinks they know better how to raise my kids than i do.

 

THAT is the problem.  i could have a garden meadow down the street, but if i let my kids go, chances are someone like you is going to see them and think that i'm abusing them somehow and try and take them from me.

 

you need to think about that one, pal.  if you REALLY CARE about kids, then HELP THEIR PARENTS. 

 

what you have done here, suggested here, is the EXACT OPPOSITE. 

 

you have accused me of everything from ignoring them to abusing them. 

 

that helps nobody but you.  you don't give a shit about kids, alex.  you just wanna hear your own voice.

 

Alex wrote:

Where even due to damage to the ozone layer, it is unhealthy for kids to spend too much time in the sun, without chemicals being spread on their bodies.

 

thats life, man.  you have to teach your kids to live with that, and to work to improve it. 

 

batting parents over the head with it is probably the WORST thing you can do, and once again proves that you really have no intention of helping children.  you just wanna slag parents.

 

Alex wrote:

 Where the food we eat is laden with chemical and hormones.

 

maybe at your house, but not in mine.

Alex wrote:

Kids with ADHD and autism are often hyper sensitive to certain environmental factors, like loud noises. Perhaps we are like the proverbial canary in the mineshaft. The first to alert the reat of the world to the fact that we are being harmed by the things we do to the environment.

 

... which is why one of the ways that my son handles his aspergers is to go to the 'quiet room' in the school, where it is dark and silent, and he can calm himself down.  once he is feeling better, he can head back to the class.

 

works like a charm.

Alex wrote:

So perhaps the solutions are those that correct the way we live. And perhaps those solutions will also benfit all people. Perhaps we are all being affected by too much noise, too much pollution, to busy to slow and take notice.

 

i might agree, but by this time, alex, you have accused me of so many horrible and hateful things that i could probably come up with all kinds of reasons to dispute this even if i did.

 

again, that you call yourself an advocate for anything is beyond me... i can't believe you have ever successfully advocated anything.

 

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sighsnootles

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Alex wrote:

 

Again you are insulting me, instead of just claiming thaty I am wrong.

 

you are wrong.  i'm simply stating that you are abrasive, and that i don't believe you when you say you are a successful advocate. 

Alex wrote:

I have nevr blamed you for anything.

 

ROTFLMAO!!

 

are you reading the same thread i am??

 

you have accused me of everything from ignoring my kids to destroying the environment!!

 

Alex wrote:

 Hiowever if you treat others like you treat me, calling me stupid, telling me I suck at what I do, instead of just claiming I am wrong, or that I am not very good at presenting my case, than you need to look at yourself.

 

i look at myself daily. 

 

i simply have no trouble admiting when i'm wrong.  which is apparently an issue for you.

Alex wrote:

If you call your kids stupid, and tell them you suck, than you might want to look at how that affects them.

 

you aren't my kids.  i have respect and love for my kids.

 

i have nothing but disdain and pity for you.  after all that you have accused me of, i don't feel wrong about that, either.

 

you have said some truly horrible and hateful things to me, and rather than acknowledge your terrible behaviour, you continue to insist that you are right.

 

even my kids are more mature than that.

 

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MistsOfSpring

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Just a few thoughts here...

 

Is it at all possible that this, like nearly any other medical issue, has experts who will say completely different things based on completely different studies that have completely different results? 

 

Is it at all possible that medication is the answer for SOME children and that it isn't for others?

 

Is it at all possible that some of the non-medical alternatives will work for SOME kids and help for SOME others who are on medication as well, and not make the slightest difference for other kids?

 

Is it at all possible that there is a difference between "sick" and "bad" and that diagnosing and treating a medical condition is not the same as judging someone as being somehow less than or worse than others?

 

Is it at all possible that SOME doctors hand out Ritalin and other ADHD medications like it's candy, thus overmedicating kids who don't even need it, while others make parents jump through a million hoops to get it, thus undermedicating kids who desperately need it?

 

Is it at all possible that SOME kids do have negative long term consequences while others don't?

 

Is it at all possible that by being defensive about your position, you're both seeing this as a black and white issue and not seeing any of the grey in the middle for fear that by giving the tiniest inch in this argument that the other person will jump in with an "AHA!  I told you that you were wrong!"?

 

You both have perfectly valid points on your side, but (IMO) you have both argued yourselves in to corners over this because neither is willing to concede a single point.  I'd like to point out, though, that you both have one huge thing in common: a desire to help these kids.  You have different ideas of how to do that, based on completely different and equally valid experiences.  As in most of these situations, I suspect that the "solution" is in a range in the middle of the two extremes and that it isn't a "one size fits all" solution. 

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Alex

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It is possible that some drugs will help some while they hurt others,  This happens with other illnesses.      One of the problems with science is that it assumes people are suppose to be the same. (I must say a similar assumption in Christianity since 1000 AD)

 

 

Howevr the dicotmy here seems to be between long term studies, on the long term effect of drug therapy on Kids with ADHD, and short term effects.

 

All of the studies that support there use are based on short term use, and sbhort term results.

 

None of the long term studies show any benefit, many show determental effects.

 

Howevr that might not mean they do not work for some. It just means there is no scientific proof that there are beneificial long term effects from long term use.

 

 

So in the end you need to have some other justification to believ that they work.   Howevr you must more or less accept that in the mean time, you are using children as guinea pigs and exposing them to large ammounts of powerful mind altering drugs.

 

 

Perhaps using coffee as a stimulant would be a better substance to experiment on kids 

 

 

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