So let me get this straight Crazyheart.  Your name was Steven?  But you're not that Steven.  That is, you're not the one they refer to as "Her"?

This is a program that I simply will not watch.

We only get basic cable.

Actually I might. I rather enjoy good documentaries. (It is a documentary, isn't it? If it's a fictional thing I probably would tune elsewhere. Fiction is generally not my cup of tea.)  remember once watching a similar kind of thing which was a report on some news magazine show (20/20? Prime Time Live? One of those.)

Sounds interesting. If it's a documentary, I'm in. If it's a "based on real life" kind of fictional story, no thank you.

I had mixed feelings about the show... Because I have friends that are transgender I only have their experience to go on, but they all came from or identified with the LGBT (lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender) community before they transitioned. What was interesting to me the differences for someone transitioning from the heterosexualy/straight world.  So I had a negative reaction to some of her comments when she was transitioning early in her process.  Comments that the documentary showed were not taken that well in the LGBT community... ones that talked about her almost apologizing for the trans community that doesn't look like her i.e. put together, educated, with money or privilege or who choose a different way to be in the world.  

 I think there is an experience of being "other" or "outside" that informs your point of view and a demand for inclusion that she had not previously experienced.  I wonder if she would say the same now or if her experiences have led her to a deeper understanding of inclusion and/or isolation.  It all part of the continuum of gender and what we identify as male and female and how we are "supposed" to look in order to have the right to call ourselves one or the other or the right to not identify with either gender... there are some people that identify as gender x... neither male or female. 

I admire her... and I am in wonder at the courage of people who stand in the face of such profound prejudice, even within the LGBT communitt(ies) to walk what is for many, a lonely path.  I hope she has not only the support of her ex and her son but also will find new friends and perhaps a partner  to make the road less solitary.

My partner works with adults withe developmental disabilities and has a number of clients that identify as gay or lesbian and has one client that identifies as transgender.  I marvel at her courage to break so many stereotypes and artificial barriers.  She has always known and even with so much stacked against her, she has been steadily walking down her path.  Tthe few developmentally disabled adults that have tried to apply for the programs that will qualify them for gender reassignment surgery are, up until my partner's client, turned away and told that they don't have the intellectual capacity to make sure a decision. ARG.

Interesting, thought provoking stuff....

I think for most of us transgender is a confusing topic. Its not something we discuss everyday or understand. I thought Susan who looks very ordinary was making a reference to the way the transgender (or whatever) women (or men)  were dressed meaning over the top in their clothing, make-up, hairstyles etc.at the events she attended.  Its like they're saying  Look at me, I'm a woman. No offence intended but some of them did look  like hookers or drag queens.  Is it necessary to go so overboard? I think its for this reason that Susan felt somewhat uncomfortable being among them, just my OP....a matter of her personal taste re appearance.

On the first, just an anecdote... when I was in seminary, I started my first year looking pretty much like many of the other women there of a similar age... nothing "standout-ish"  At the end of my first year, I came out as lesbian and part of that process for me was a change in how I dressed, my hair, etc.   I was the same person as they'd all gone to classes with for a year but now because of a leather jacket and short hair, I was seen as intimidating.  At the time, I didn't see that although it was a part of the coming out process for me, a part of shedding my skin, it really through my friends for a loop.  I was really hurt by many of them pulling away from me and in turn, I started to pull inwards because I felt misunderstood.  And there is often a part of coming out which seems to be a swing to that far side of the continuum... not really sure why... and often accompanied by almost 16 yr old feelings... of a new understanding of yourself as a sexual being and how to be in the world, how you want to dress, who you're attracted to, etc. and in that first flush, there is also, often a need to tell EVERYONE you meet (and by tell I mean verbally or with bumper stickers or pins or particular clothing, etc) that life has changed and this is your identity. 

During that time, I also had the experience of walking downtown Toronto one evening on my way to a church gathering and watching, with complete incredulity, an older woman cross the street looking at me like she was scared.  Which in turn, competely freaked me out.  I realized then the duality - that this was part of me being me but it was also viewed by the world in a way that was NOT what I wanted...  Susan's story illustrates this, not necessarily in how she presents herself physically, but in her need to tell, even when those details push people away.

Funny now as I look back, because now again, I think pretty much look like anyone you'd pass without notice on the street.  And in my small town, if I wasn't already part of "the girls on 40 Hills",  I don't really think anyone would guess my partner is a woman.  But in our small town, of course it's known... and so I am more "out" than I've ever been because there isn't any other choice...  No leather jacket, no super short hair, no bumper stickers (although that's just cause we have a new car and haven't decided whether we feel like it or not)... 

And one more anecdote... there was a day in Toronto when I was walking with a good friend and he and were just happy and chatting and at one point held hands as we walked.  And it was really interesting because although it was just a part of being happy that day, we both remarked later that we were uncomfortable with the thought that we were "passing"  as a straight couple.  (he's gay as well)  We both wanted to be in the world as ourselves and a vital part of ourselves was being "clothed" in the assumptions that would come with our holding hands.  This isn't, obviously, about holding hands because that is a lovely feeling with my partner, with my daughter and with my friends... but in that moment, it felt like a betrayal to my self.

Heterosexuals suffer from this also.

Just think of the many young (and not so young) women who suffer from anorexia trying to look like the skinny models in magazines with the "perfect" body.

gaiagrrl,

I'd like to take this opportunity to thank you for giving me an insight into LGBT issues in an open, honest and non-threatening manner.

Your dialogue with stardust is a case in point.

So often we hetero's are put on the defensive when we grapple with these issues. Stardust raised a point that I've heard privately voiced many times - why go overboard in the clothes department?

Your clear answer made sense to me. (Just think of all of the over the top clothes worn by teen-agers when they first express their newly discovered sexuality.)

It showed a lot of maturity on your part to understand the confusion/fear of your fellow classmates.

Whilst I can appreciate the anger and hurt felt by the LGBT community, perhaps the acceptance desired will come more readily, if your lead is followed.

You catch more flies with honey than vinegar. 

I missed the very beginning of the show, but I think I caught most of it.  I enjoyed the documentary, and a glimpse into the life of this courageous and determined woman.

This part that stardust refers to was part of the information in the show that I thought they could have done without.  I know that there are people out there who feel that there is no hope and suicide is a last resort, especially people who are very depressed.  But in this case, this option C as expressed by Susan . . . it bothered me.  It bothered me that this would be an option just because of the job situation (at least that was how I understood it).  And it bothered me that her son even had to make this statement - why would this have even been something that was on this child's radar at all.  I personally just felt that this didn't add to the story.

But as far as Susan and her life and what she has been through, and accomplished - yes, a lot of courage.  I noticed at the end that there was a credit that said that she did find employment (I believe in Florida). 

My goodness! ...thank you so much all of you for such a wonderful discussion and such open comments!      As a transgender person in the midst of change I find the attitudes and willingness to learn and understand here so very heartwarming and refreshing.    As a transgender person I have battled the self esteem issues from underneath.    I know what it is like to go "over the top" on how I presented myself because I was overcompensating for my own self esteem issues.    Many times it was more about trying to convince myself .....maybe if I just looked more womanly ...whatever that meant....    It is quite a journey to getting to the place we can deal with having to live in the skin we are in.    It is always a challenge to try and balance what is enough versus what we really yearn to be.     We make mistakes as we go along .... I still do ....probably always will.     Now I am to the point I am proud to be who and what I am ..... a good transgender woman that tries hard to be a good and loving person first and foremost.   I will always wish that I was born a conventional woman ....and I will always strive to be the best woman I can be.    So very much I would love to share ....just know this .... it is people like you that have made such a profound and important contribution to my life and sense of womanhood.   If there is anyone that wants to know more about being transgender .... I open my life and my heart to you ....just ask!!    I am not an expert ..... I just live it every moment of my life ...     If you want to look into the life of an ordinary person that just so happens to be transgender..... I am  there for you.

Again, all of you! .... thank you so very much for such an uplifting and thoughtful discussion.

Regards and HUGS

Rita

Rita

Yes! You ARE the best !

StevieG ..... HUGS! ...... thank you so much for sharing ...... well said indeed.

Rita

You know what, though, that I did not say and I want to?

Sometimes, over the top feels good!!

Since this thread is mostly female identifying, I will speak regarding that..... Did you ever in a sea of other women, just want to stand out? Did you ever want to just blend in? Did you ever want to be more buxom and buy chick-filets for your bra? Ever pick clothes based on what will hide a roll? Ever say "to hell with it" and wear that sexy little thing with junk in your trunk? If you like dresses but wear pants mostly, do you ever want to just be you? Vice versa? Have you ever wore something to feel sexy? How about to deliberately not appear sexy? How about under your clothes, have you ever worn something that made you feel sexier or different? How does it feel when someone else is wearing your outfit? Did you ever wish it was ok to walk about in a boa? Would you feel sexy in a Mae West floor-length dressing gown and the jewelry? Does Halloween feel fun and freeing? How would it feel on special occassions to pull out all the stops? Would you love Mardi Gras?

So, yes there are times I want to blend in and there are times I want to put on a tux and tails or I want to dress up and parade down the street and some want to put on an evening gown and all the glam... Some say it is "over the top" and sometimes they call it drag and sometime it is at Pride. Yet, all in all, it is pretty often just human nature... that it is ok for some and not for others, is though we may not have seen it that way,  some degree of prejudice.... and we all have it based on the world we live in.

Whoever came up with that saying?  I mean if you don't want flies in your face that is great...but what if you don't want to catch flies?

As-salaamu alaikum

-Omni