I've had it with this shit.  Seriously

Was in Maine for a few days and they are nearing a Gubernatorial/Statewide Election and one of the issues they are voting on is this:

"Do you want to reject the new law that lets same-sex couples marry and allows individuals and religious groups to refuse to perform these marriages?"

I couldn't believe the homophobic crap that was played constantly on the radio and tv.  DID YOU KNOW THAT IF YOU VOTE NO ON QUESTION 1 THE SCHOOLS WILL HAVE TO TEACH HOMOSEXUAL SEX???  etc etc.

That a Country would murder homosexuals...

I had lunch with a friend the other day who was talking about an upcoming production of "Rent" that the local High School was putting on.  My friend was very concerned that the homosexual content would upset the Catholics, particularly the Nuns.  I very curtly said that I'm neither concerned about or taking responsibility for other peoples homophobia which kind of took my friend aback but I didn't care.

This is abnormal... as if the homophobic person has any more right to live than a homosexual. It just doesn't make any sense to me.

Religion can be such a bad influence to us all, yet the rhetoric present here is basically present everywhere with certain religious groups. 

This reminds me of a kid back when I was in Bulgaria. I remember him saying that the only way to deal with our homeless people problem was to kill them. Now, I know this kid was probably not being serious, but looking back to it makes me think what kind of people some of us can truly be.

Most of the time people do not really have any sense of what morality is, and that is why it amazes me when they state how some things are immoral, that really aren't.

hmm...the information Meredith shares helps to explain the recent  manifesto(?) by Spong.

When I first saw this proposal, as a private members bill, I was appalled..but then I remembered the crap that went out about the GC with false reporting re the proposal for middle east / boycott / etc.

I was hoping that it was an isolated person, and that the other politicians would not support it.    I know it is Uganda, but , i was holding out hope.

Now, Witch, you share that this may pass.    that is insane...and if the tideswell is such, then how do we , as canadians put pressure on those politicians.  Christianity should not respect borders.  When called ot look for justice...we are , i think, called to respect differences in culture, but recognize when items such as homophobia, and hate, are just that...and speak out, and act out against them.

Alex,  having been in the group that worked on the proposal... i disagree with your interpretation "The same arguments and logic  was used this summer at the General Council of the  UCC when people claimed  that to support equal access for the disabled and the GLBT community is to support "empire""

The proposal that passed, included the following:

The empire aspect is to presume that we, at GC, know what the small church in Timbuktoo has to deal with, and all the barriers they face...and the good work they do to address them to ensure that folks are welcomed.  How do we know what a barrier is.  Do we do a check point at the door, and if you are wearing perfume, tell you  that you must leave, becasue someone in our church might be allergic to it..and we haven't addressed a way to support both yet....or do we shut our doors while we try tofigure out each potential barrier, and how to address them...or does the GC come to the church and shut it down because it has barriers.  I'd rather be able to spend time knowing who is allergic to perfume, and asking them how we support them, and if that means a barrier to anyone arriving, then we do that...but, it is about the church taking the time to understand what are barriers, learning aobut htem, and workign through them.  It is also about learning what barriers exist from people within the community and also outside of the community, who is barred from attending.  it is about continuing to evolve..but it can't be something that is top down...resources can be top down...but, the community has to be part of it, and name it as something they are called to do.

Presuming we know it all and decreeing what a church should do...is empire.  It is power over...and is not how the united church works..and is a dangerous precedent.

declare that in matters respecting doctrine, worship, membership and governance, The United Church of Canada is opposed to discrimination againstany person on the basis of age, ancestry, colour, disability, ethnic origin, gender identity, language, marital status (), place of origin, race, sexual orientation,socio-economic status or any other basis by which a person is devalued.

2. Commit The United Church of Canada to journey to where there will be nodiscrimination in any aspect of church life and strongly urge each court,congregation and other ministries to embrace this commitment.

3. And direct the General Secretary, General Council to develop educational resources that will assist courts and congregations to identify how theydiscriminate and develop a plan to make room for all those who would be part ofthe body of Christ within The United Church of Canada.

Alex, there is a huge difference between killing someone....and forcing a small rural church to close or  put in an elevator, provide hearing equipment, provide resources in multiple visual formats, ensure that programming is offered for all ages, always, take education on all aspects of discrimination and ensure each individual within that congregation never discriminates in any way shape or form, regardless if they are a member or just a recent adherent.

 Doesn't mean we shouldn't get tehre.. what was called for was for national/GC/conference/presbytery/congregations/boards/members  have to  start having those tough dialogues.  Yes, it should be part of an existence check.

It also means we have to understnad what it means to discriminate.  If a church doesn't allow children to accept communion..is that discrimination based on age, or is it similair to driving, where there is an age limit based on some predefined characteristic.

c'mon...

sorry, witch...took this thread off-topic...back to Uganda we go.

I am appalled at that MP in Uganda.  I also recognize that I know nothing about Uganda politics or government systems...including where this guy fits -- elected/appointed, etc.

Could such a proposal be tabled within our government?  Say an MP goes mad..but subtly so..and writes a crazy bill...could it get to be read?

I haven't read all the intermediate posts and I don't think I could stand to listen to the interview as I've lately been reading Viktor Frankl's account of his experience at Auschwitz (Man's Search for Meaning) and I've had enough evidence of human ignorance and cruelty for today.  As a result I'm going to jump right in and say that it sounds as if it could be the genesis of the next big genocide.  Certainly many will see it as an excellent opportunity to implicate unlimited numbers of people and later confiscate their property through the  legal machinery of the state in a manner similar to the way the witch hunts of the Inquisition targeted the power and property of women or the way the Holocaust targeted the property of the Jews.  The damage will ring down through generations.

no, that is not what I said.....

All I have seen to-date, that I had read, was one person putting together a bill, and yet, we seem quite willing to presume that Uganda politicans will not handle this correctly.  Now that may be correct, and people may have knowledge to that fact, then they should share it.

I have no problem saying this bill, and this MP is insane. I have no problem with speaking out against the bill or the MP, or a critical assessment of Uganda's politicans, and the risk to gay/lesbian folks in Uganda.

I do wish I had someoen giving me some information about Uganda, and the information which says, which is that it is going to be pass.

I am saying that if you say " you shouldn't drink bottled water, no bottled water is to be used in any United church in Canada", then, that too is making a decree across people based on the presumptions of a select few.  If you say, "Bottled water is <insert negative remarks> and should not be necessary.  Where water is potable, then curches should refrain from usage.  All communities should have access ot potable water, given that they don't...we, as a church are called to _________".    My comment was around people presumign they know other people's realities, and Alex bringing in the Sask 1 proposal.

There is a f* of a big difference between murder and larger print bulletins.

There is a f* of a big difference between one madmen bringing forward a bill, and a bunch of politicians being  willing to support it,

There is a F* of a big difference between supporting barbarians and asking someone to provide some information.

I know your frustration with these hateful people, I can think of several "illegal" ways of getting rid of them too, but lets face it, we'd only be bringing ourselves down to there level, and we wouldn't be solving the problem, we'd just be spilling the blood they would have spilled from those they choose prejudice against.

That said, it would be equally bad if we did nothing while people went to the slaughter for simply the expression of there love.  I/you/we/someone must come up with some kind of action that can be taken to prevent this bill from passing.

I wonder if anyone has an idea how to reach our United Church partners in Uganda, or neighbouring countries?

They would have advice...

Ya know... hehe... i might have an idea

what if "someone" were to photoshop photos of the people responcible for the bill. Have them doing some ilegal "things". maybe make them look like there doing the very thing there trying to get rid of...muhahahahaa.

spread the pictures in the streets.... hehe... truthfully, that would probably make things worse, but i good chuckle out of it.

ohh well, back to the drawing boards...

Thank you, Pinga.

Also there are 7 countries where execution for homosexuals has already long been the law. They are the Sudan, Mauritania, Nigeria, Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates, Yemen and Iran.

There are 93, to my last count, where it is punished legally.

It is why I crusade the way I do, drawing attention to issues. For me, it is not just about things like Prop 8 or equal marriage. It is about people in some places who are not allowed to stay alive. It is about people lingering in prison. It is being safe while in another country, not just on vacation, but at work or while travelling.  

Do we recall Canadian human rights activist and peace activist James Loney? Loney travelled to Iraq with Christian Peacemakers Team. He was/is gay, but that information was kept quiet when he was kidnapped. His lover, the group he worked with, the media all forced to hide their relationship under intense media scrutiny, for fear he would be killed for being gay.

My friends go to Barbados every year. We have been invited each year, but I will not go where gays face life impisonment.

It is a reality that for some Canadians a flight lay-over, a holiday, work.... in certain places around the globe can be dangerous or deadly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_by_country_or_territory

I received an email listing the companies invested in Uganda. I will write to the Uganda Investment Authority, the government agency promoting investment in Uganda. I will write and tell them this issue could be harmful to investment in Uganda.

I will write to companies that do business in Uganda. I will look at my short list and I will actively seek out others.

Companies across the globe, including Canadian companies, are invested in Uganda. There are a number of Candaian companies in the oil business in Uganda, like Heritage Oil .  There are a number of Canadian mining companies like Canmin Resources and Vangold mining Uganda's rare metals.  There is the accountancy firm Wall and Associates that outsources to Uganda. There is Canadian IBI working on electricity in Uganda .... 

Then there are the companies from other countries that I will write to.

If the companies know their customers will react and if Uganda wants to keep the fastest growing economy in sub-Saharan Africa...

Money seems to talk.

If I were in Nigeria, Uganda, Ghana, and several other countries I would be jailed. I will never go to those countries.

I was a public advocate of homosexual marriage as long as it has been an issue. I don't do much anymore. The world has changed, will change more, and will never change back. Intelligent people will continue to reassess their attitudes on homosexuality.

The fight isn't over by a long shot - but the end is in sight.

beshpin:  i am tempted to flag your post as offensive, as you appear to be condoning violence towards people based on their sexuality.  I am tired and have had a rough day at work, and so..may be overly grumpy.  given that, i will ask if anyone else reads the same.  If they do, and say so as a reply, then I will go with instinct, and flag your post.

I flagged it. Beshpin is indirectly saying he's o.k. with the Ugandan govt. murdering gay people.

Sigh...I understand and that is why I hesitated.   There is an underlying in the post, which causes me the grief.  Like it is ok for a country to determine to kill folks based on human rights issues:  gender, age, sexual orientation, abilility, etc.    

Beshpin,

I would say that having a deluded view on sexuality does not make you an idiot, if you mean of subnormal intelligence. I would say it definitely is according to the Greek , lacking professional skill or private citizen. I would also say it fits the definition, for some, of being an incongruous mix of religion and brutality.

I would not say it makes one a terrible person if that means immoral. One would be if it means dread causing and terror inspiring.

One can hold the view I have without being ethnocentric. I do not believe I am superior, that my nation is, my race, my religious interpretation.... I hold that Uganda is not safe for gay Canadians or Canadians who would not think to report homosexuals. Why? Because it is not. I hold that for Canadian employers, they risk the safety of gay and straight Canadians who work in Uganda, are called to meet in Uganda, inspect Uganda operations,  visit Uganda. Why? Because it is simply true.

Canadian cultural values do not have us reporting homosexuals. We would fail to do so and be open to a death sentence.

As a relativist, I see that any and all nations actions are reliant on historical, social and cultural circumstance. It is how it was once illegal and punishable to be homosexual in Canada. I do not believe in moral absolutes such as right or wrong.

One can object based on other factors, like safety, without making moral judgement.

For me, relativism means I see history, culture and social structure as relevant and not the good or bad of the people. It means I view Uganda today as little different than Canada of the past.  Fourteen years imprisonment in Canada (standard)  for being gay in my lifetime (pre-1969) to a life sentence for the likes of Everett George Klippert (deemed incurable and a dangerous sexual offender) is one small step from the death penalty. That too, for me, is a reality.

It is our past. I do not see one period of time, one culture, one religion... as inately superior, that means I do not see any as inately inferior. It is not ethnocentic.

Sorry... I know you wanted really bad to have a swipe at relativists, but you cannot unless it is at hypocrital relativism or ethnocentric relativism.

This is all so very vexing!  It makes me want to cry. 

How the heck are they going to proove that someone is gay before executing them?  This could lead to major corruption within the government, accusing anyone of the so-called crime of gay sexual conduct and killing them and taking their possessions or blackmailing them.  Not that killing someone even if they are gay isn't corrupt and criminal. 

The world has gone crazy!  Will people ever stop using the name of God to justify their evil deeds?  Somehow after listening to the interview, I feel the human race is really alot less civil and humane than I thought this morning. 

I wish I could believe that too, Witch, but I've never been the optimist. One day, maybe the idea of an absolute God might disappear, but until then it will still be used to justify certain actions. I have in mind the Salem witch trials, for example, as a way of showing us how badly the idea of God can be misused.

Still, you may be right.