Ted
Between Neighbours
Posted on: 02/08/2010 04:06
Our faith tells us how we should relate to our neighbours. Jesus tells us to love our neighbours. In faith we know that this is not a selective admonition; we cannot arbitrarily discriminate who we define as neighbour and limit our love. Yet, never does Jesus guide us as to how to relate to matters between various of our neighbours. Far too often mutual exclusivity comes into play. If I am to love one neighbour, I must necessarily deny another neighbour.
In the parable of the Good Samaritan, Jesus has his Samaritan arrive after the attack, choose not to pass by but lovingly assist and support the stranger who had fallen among thieves. This is entirely a one-to-one, polar, relationship. What if Jesus had had the Samaritan arrive on the scene during the attack instead? The neighbour relationship would be triangular. The thieves are as equally the Samaritan’s neighbours as the stranger on the road to Jericho. Yet the choice is obvious: deny the thieves and, in love, defend the stranger, rendering whatever assistance may be necessary, even to the point of violence, to drive the thieves away from their target. There is no way around it, in order to love the stranger on the road to Jericho, the Samaritan would have to deny the thieves.
In real life, we face this dilemma almost constantly. The choice is often far more subtle than between thieves and a victim but the consequence remains: to love the one requires denial of the other. In subtlety, the choice becomes far more subjective and truly difficult. Which neighbour to love and which neighbour to deny? We must prayerfully determine this for ourselves as Jesus never tells us how to make the choice. I suspect some Christians become catatonic at the dilemma, never choose, and effectively deny both. I suspect also that people in the greater community may quickly give the label “hypocrite” to Christians who make a choice to deny love with which the greater community disagrees.
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chansen
So basically, help people.
Posted on: 02/08/2010 06:22
So basically, help people. The dilemma is how to prioritize those who are most in need, and those who are most deserving of being helped. There is no dilemma unique to Christians here.
kaythecurler
Welcome to the Wondercafe
Posted on: 02/08/2010 09:25
Welcome to the Wondercafe Ted.
Maybe all we can realy do is respond in love to the person in front of us. In any spare time we can work towards a wider form of justice maybe.
seeler
It is the age old question of
Posted on: 02/08/2010 09:44
It is the age old question of divided loyalties. It sometimes splits families, friends, neighbours. It doesn't get any easier if you have a vested interest in supporting one side over the other.
WaterBuoy
Omega'd Ted ... detract from
Posted on: 02/08/2010 10:02
Omega'd Ted ... detract from God'/Love for the sake of the needs of the thieves in the night?
But one has to ask why the thieves have to steal after escaping from Egypt with nothing ... ain't that a cramp in our style ... when we bin conditioned (in the pits) to worship God alone? What chaos, O'din in meis desires ... isle never get over ID!
Now the Sufi scholar states that th' Hebrew are the wee hommoes (forms) adhering to the page ... what do we take from that entity? Where di Greek, Latin and the Romance tongues come from ... and before that ... myth 've th' Pure Flight from the east (Persian)?
Then such knowledge would not go over with the Carolinian Philosophy borrowed from the Empire: " A learned man is dangerous, killem!" And they did 2000 years ago and this went on in ignorance for a thousand years ... until such form was resurrected for the common man, Pagan , of phoqah out of heaven without a script ... pnoe wah to tell their's ID've th' story! It is shyr chaos ... but ID can speak to yah through the dark Ness of th' Poe'L that' Lam, Lambda, Lameth in Heb! Da sleight to the King preferring demos to know nothing ... so his agendah will not be scene in public places ... beir'n heavy on their minds ... das oul of para dice ... des Ire 'n Theo'n Black'n White!
troyerboy
An elderly gentleman I talked
Posted on: 02/08/2010 10:24
An elderly gentleman I talked to a long time ago, once told me the story of when he was told to appear before a military tribune and explain why he could not serve in the military. He said that he would never be able to carry a weapon to take someones life, but would risk life and limb to render aid to the wounded. " So you can serve as a medic then" they said. "Yes, I would" he replied "but I will render aid to your enemy the same as I would your soldier". He was denied entry into military service. In the good Samaritan story, even the thieves were not the enemy, but those that committed a violent act.
boltupright
How we relate to our
Posted on: 02/08/2010 11:43
How we relate to our neighbours, usually will reveal how we relate to God.
Even if we don't know God, "personally".
Is there is a principle that would describe blessings from God, when we show love, mercy, & compassion for our fellow mankind?
It is described in a way that we do this as unto God.
Why would anyone believe this principle will not apply to those who don't know God personally?
Our motives are everything, because God knows exactly "why" we do what we do.
He knows if we seek favor from Him, or if we truely are one's who love with a Godly love.
You will know them by their fruits.
If one eats of such a tree, that reveals both good & evil, which fruit is established in one's life, is proof of enlightenment.
The principles of God are every bit as much "God" as Jesus the Christ is.
Jesus is our example of relationship with God through a baptism of the Holy Spirit of God.
His words are Spiritual, all His words & works are Spiritual as it is referanced in scripture, & there is no corruption found in His words to us.
Because there is no contradition in His words,,,ever!!!!!
They are incorruptable.
Bolt
chansen
boltupright wrote:Because
Posted on: 02/08/2010 13:10
They are incorruptable.
Does God ever get tired?
Who is for or against Jesus?
There are hundreds of examples like these, thanks be to Google.
boltupright
This is what you determine
Posted on: 02/08/2010 13:17
Have a great day chansen.
Bolt
waterfall
Ted,"What if Jesus had had
Posted on: 02/08/2010 14:14
Ted,"What if Jesus had had the Samaritan arrive on the scene during the attack instead? The neighbour relationship would be triangular. The thieves are as equally the Samaritan’s neighbours as the stranger on the road to Jericho. Yet the choice is obvious: deny the thieves and, in love, defend the stranger, rendering whatever assistance may be necessary, even to the point of violence, to drive the thieves away from their target. There is no way around it, in order to love the stranger on the road to Jericho, the Samaritan would have to deny the thieves."
The thieves showed no mercy and they are on equal footing with the rabbi and the levite. They are examples of not applying the golden rule.
I think it is possible to show mercy towards all three of them through forgiveness and still refuse to resort to violence. This obviously would go against the grain in our society, but didn't Jesus do exactly that when he passively(seemingly) accepted his fate while forgiving us all?
Ted
I have some thoughts and
Posted on: 02/08/2010 14:58
I have some thoughts and questions about our Christian relationship with violence, but I will put those into a separate topic at some time.
Ted
The issue I am trying to
Posted on: 02/08/2010 15:57
The issue I am trying to delve into is that of mutual exclusivity. We are called to love our neighbour but, when loving one neighbour requires a Christian to deny another neighbour, how do we choose?
An extreme, but very active, example lies with the never resolved abortion debate. Many Christians lovingly support a women as neighbour who chooses to terminate an unwanted pregnancy, thus denying that same love to the unborn neighbour who must die. Many other Christians lovingly strive to protect the life of an unborn neighbour, thus, to some extent, denying that same love to the neighbour woman who seeks to terminate an unwanted pregnancy. Buried in both sides of this debate often lie implied (and even, sometimes, explicit) charges of unloving hypocrisy against proponents of the other side.
A far more trivial example would be on a crowded bus. Two elderly strangers board. I can only surrender my seat to one of them and, in doing so, must necessarily deny the other. To tell the truth, I am likely to quietly vacate my seat without drawing the attention of either to my doing so.
chansen
boltupright wrote: This is
Posted on: 02/08/2010 16:36
Yes, my mind is twisted enough to suggest that Jesus contradicting himself in the bible is evidence of Jesus contradicting himself in the bible.
I know, I know. It's a bit of a stretch...
If you want, write something else that's obviously false. See how it goes this time.
boltupright
Interesting point Ted. There
Posted on: 02/08/2010 17:54
Interesting point Ted.
There is a discenment invoved in many facets of life.
With the issue of aborting "unwanted" pregnancy, is the idea of protecting innocent blood from being shed.
Does not one make this choice of not wanting a baby, a life, before one even partakes in intercourse?
Then why partake in intercourse?
I know, you think perhaps it's not all black & white, but many shades of grey.
I would agree.
Bolt
boltupright
chansen wrote: boltupright
Posted on: 02/08/2010 17:38
Yes, my mind is twisted enough to suggest that Jesus contradicting himself in the bible is evidence of Jesus contradicting himself in the bible.
I know, I know. It's a bit of a stretch...
If you want, write something else that's obviously false. See how it goes this time.
OK.
Obviously false?
Show me. anywhere, "this evidence" you speak of, rgarding the referances of words spoken by Jesus the Christ as being spoken by Him within the Gospels of the cannon, & show me where the red letters contradict themselves in His parables & instruction to His deciples?
Words such as these are incorruptable.
Bolt
chansen
Ted wrote:A far more trivial
Posted on: 02/08/2010 16:45
I'd suggest a game of Rock-Paper-Scissors.
In medicine, this is known as "triage". Ethicists, I'm sure, struggle with these questions. Again, these questions are not exclusive to Christians, and the bible will give you conflicting directions on what to do (surprise), just as both sides in the abortion debate can claim scriptural defense of their positions. If you're confused about what to do in those circumstances, well, join the club.
Pilgrims Progress
chansen wrote: Isaiah 40:28
Posted on: 02/08/2010 16:56
Who is for or against Jesus?
What's this I see? chansen quoting from the Bible?
Pehaps along with the miracle of a new birth in the family, there is the possibility of the birth of spirituality?
boltupright
Pilgrims Progress
Posted on: 02/08/2010 16:59
Who is for or against Jesus?
What's this I see? chansen quoting from the Bible?
Pehaps along with the miracle of a new birth in the family, there is the possibility of the birth of spirituality?
Let us hope!!!
Bolt
Pilgrims Progress
Ted, Welcome to wondercafe.
Posted on: 02/08/2010 17:19
Ted,
Welcome to wondercafe. Excellent question - and one I suspect that can't be answered well.
Karen Armstrong states that the essence of spirituality is empathy and compassion - so perhaps that's a good place to start.
Seeing someone with compassion isn't the same as agreeing with them. In the example of the thieves you could try to understand what motivates them - and acknowledge to them that you at least know where they're coming from. Sometimes, all people really want is to have their feelings acknowledged.
In regard to the example of giving up your seat. Your compassion tells you that both these people need the seat more than you - so you stand up. Hopefully, they will follow your example - and the one that needs the seat the least will offer it to the other.
kaythecurler
PP - a possible result to the
Posted on: 02/08/2010 17:32
PP - a possible result to the bus seat problem could be that other people notice that Ted has vacated his seat, and realise they could do the same thing.
My take on the pregnant neighbor is that I would hope that I could listen to her concerns, validate that she has a pproblem, be accepting of her whatever dicision she makes. After her dicision is made she will still need caring neighbors to listen to her concerns, validate that she has a problem and be accepting of her.
blackbelt
Pilgrims Progress
Posted on: 02/08/2010 17:36
What's this I see? chansen quoting from the Bible?
Pehaps along with the miracle of a new birth in the family, there is the possibility of the birth of spirituality?
[/quote]
let it be so number 1
waterfall
Ted,I see what you're
Posted on: 02/08/2010 17:47
Ted,I see what you're describing but if the good samaritan is just a parable maybe we are to see that the Samaritan is Jesus? We can not be everywhere and most recently with the crisis in Haiti we cannot always physically help, but perhaps we are to know that God has something to offer to everyone even when others won't or can't?
WaterBuoy
Spirituality: empathy and
Posted on: 02/09/2010 09:41
Spirituality: empathy and compassion?
Wouldn't a person need to step outside of themself ... like escaping Pandora's Box? We couldn't do that except ... perhaps ... to trample the neigh bore! That's the one digging into the dirt around us for a bit of Light ... requiring some sense of change ... walk softly Meus' ...
Can an indif\vidual understand the whole thing as a mortal? The Sufi Scholar sated that to do this one would have to occupy, that other's space, time and light of situation to grasp that ethic ... floating thing in the poeL 've mankind! We can't get it without travail ...
chansen
Pilgrims Progress
Posted on: 02/09/2010 09:44
Pehaps along with the miracle of a new birth in the family, there is the possibility of the birth of spirituality?
Sorry. The birth of my son serves to remind me that religion still has far too much influence in this world. Spirituality? Sure, whatever floats your boat. Religion based on the dogma of old (or new) texts? A virus on society that has to be opposed.
And those quote are directly contradictory.
seeler
Chansen - many of us who read
Posted on: 02/09/2010 10:15
Chansen - many of us who read the Bible have been aware that there are contradictory quotes, and whole contradictory philosophies, in the Bible.
Some of the biggest in the Hebrew scripture involved whether or not having political unity and a kingdom of Israel was part of God's plan or did it mean that 'Egypt (where they were slaves to the Egyptians) has come to Israel (where they would be serfs under the king)'?
Another big conflict at the time of the captivity was whether as "God's chosen people they should keep themselves separate and pure or were they to be a 'light unto the gentiles'.
A conflict in the Christian scriptures during the time of Paul was whether Gentiles wishing to become Christian must also become Jews. Paul on one side / the church in Jerusalem on the other.
A Bible scholar could find many more and explain them better than I can.
It doesn't take google to find contradictions. We are aware of them ourselves - we work through them and learn from them.
boltupright
chansen wrote: Pilgrims
Posted on: 02/09/2010 10:25
Pehaps along with the miracle of a new birth in the family, there is the possibility of the birth of spirituality?
Sorry. The birth of my son serves to remind me that religion still has far too much influence in this world. Spirituality? Sure, whatever floats your boat. Religion based on the dogma of old (or new) texts? A virus on society that has to be opposed.
And those quote are directly contradictory.
I agree, religion does have too much influence.
The thing is,,religion is as much a part of God in this world, as any other form of divisive nature on this earth.
Religion is just a word to describe man's effort to explain God.
Relationship is a word to describe a relating to God in a two way communion.
This forms much better relations with the collective.
We can't always equate the two.
Bolt
Arminius
Hi Ted: What are you
Posted on: 02/09/2010 11:58
Hi Ted:
What are you growing there in your orchard.? Apple of Paradise?
The commandment to love our neighbours as ourselves is rooted in the mystical feeling of at-one-ment. An inevitable outcome of that feeling is unitive love.
Commandents are cumbersome; we often force ourselves to obey them without feeling that way. But If we strive for the mystical union, then unitive love arises spontaneosuly, from within, without much doing, and we feel compelled to act in the spirit of that love.
Ted
They are Spartan apples,
Posted on: 02/10/2010 00:21
They are Spartan apples, Arminius, just the one tree in our back yard.
Does this unitive love help with the choice when to love one requires denial of the other?
Arminius
Hi Ted: I'm talking about
Posted on: 02/10/2010 01:05
Hi Ted:
I'm talking about the unitive love of the mystical union, wherein one becomes at-one with the totality, a.k.a. God, and at-one with every being. Then everything and everyone is united as one in God. Then one sees onself in everyone and everything, and looks lovingly at everyone and everything and exclaims: "Thou art I; Thou art God!"
Then it is easy to love everyone as oneself because everyone is part of one's godly self.
Unfortunately, mystical experience and insight is not fostered very much in Christianity. We are a largely doctrinal religion, and therefore tend to get mired down in the quagmire of doctrine.
unsafe
Arminius your quote :
Posted on: 02/10/2010 18:37
Arminius your quote :
I'm talking about the unitive love of the mystical union, wherein one becomes at-one with the totality, a.k.a. God, and at-one with every being. Then everything and everyone is united as one in God. Then one sees onself in everyone and everything, and looks lovingly at everyone and everything and exclaims: "Thou art I; Thou art God!"
This is great reading and I believe what the parable mainly is about . This is just my take on what the message is here in The Good Samaritan and loving your neighbour.
Who are our neighbours --we humans -all of us are neighbours
The man who was beaten and robbed represents all man kind in sin
The robbers represent Satan who wants to kill,steal and destroy us humans
The 2 men who walked by showed no compassion -they either were ignorant of the law or they just refused to execute the law not wanting to get involved. The priest in those days were not suppose to touch anything unclean so this might have played a part in his decision ???????? .We humans know the laws that govern us but we break them anyway.
The good Samaritan was Jesus himself who's Love is unconditional (Agape love) and took care of the man paying the man's bill at the inn so this love goes beyond the call of what is expected.
The story tells us to be there for our fellow man in time of trouble --I think giving up a seat on the bus for a pregnant lady is all to do with manners . This parable takes on another topic which is : If you know of someone who is without food-cloths-money to pay bills etc then help don't just walk away and if you see a person being beaten --or a crime being committed don't just walk away . Satan has a way of putting fear in us to walk away and say nothing when we see crimes ,beatings etc taking place .
Jesus could have walked away form being nailed to a cross but he choose to give his life for us ---This is the ultimate price to pay for a neighbour . So all of us have access to Jesus and the promises througt His Blood that was shed for us all not just for Christians .
This is just my take on this Blessings
chansen
Did you just call God's Word
Posted on: 02/10/2010 09:20
Did you just call God's Word "mis-managed"?
Quick. Repent.
WaterBuoy
Oh to place two conflicting
Posted on: 02/10/2010 09:38
Oh to place two conflicting spirits in the same space, time and light 've relationship ... ain't that divine like two bayars in the bush ... a real stir to the thoughts of a mortal and the serpent still nips at the heals of the mule--- right from the 49th chapter of Genesis with an unaccountable number of changes as the word is transcended ... translated from one linguistic form (hommoe) to another ... page to Ayres/Aries. My God if you only knew how the ab-original was evolved .. Dawkins would phuke like a Wahl in phun ... dog Maas 've break fast?
It is interesting to research Wahl and all its phonetic expressions ... almost infinite Job!
In the end only two conflicts exist: Lovein thought two Eire gifts given ... as a child of God one should get IT together ... it is said they are intimate in heaven ... well blen-dead and calm ... sum don't like it and become fall lout--- Dan-Tae!