"Born again" ...... from the gospel of John ..... something Jesus said to Nicodemus.....

Didn't Peter have something to say about that later as well??

Once again here is a perfectly good phrase that gets hijacked and spiritually abused.

I am so sad that something that was meant to be a beautiful gift gets turned into a weapon.

I am one of those "born again" ones and I hope, pray, and put my actions behind making sure that I never ever use that as a weapon against anyone.

"Born again" to me is more of a description of how I feel I have changed inside and it is personal.     How you describe your own experience should be just that ...your own personal description.    I do hope that what you have experienced is loving, profound, personal, and wonderful beyond belief.

Yes ...I have a path ...and it is personal ..... and you have a path that is personal too!

I would much rather focus on sharing our experiences along our paths rather than arguing like childern that my ice cream is better than your ice cream.

I hope that we can reclaim phrases like "born again" from those that would abuse it and again allow it to shine as a wonderful description of a deep personal truth. 

Please ....would you mind sharing a bit about how you describe your path?    I love word pictures!

Hugs

Rita

RitaTG asked ...

Please ....would you mind sharing a bit about how you describe your path?

I don't think I ever had a single point in time when I was "reborn". Instead, it has been a slow 45 year process of making some sense out of religion and spirituality. Each day I become more aware of who I am in the great scheme of things.

At this point I see Jesus as a wonderful teacher, and I thank him for that, but not as "my savior". At some point in a future lifetime I will be reborn, abandon this physical world, and enter into what Christianity calls The Kingdom.

This is my path.

Fifteen or so years ago I attended a day long seminar in a United Church in Guelph Ontario given by Marcus Borg. Towards the end of the day he opened the seminar to questions from the floor. Someone asked "What do you think of born again Christians?" He stood at the lectern, head bowed, for what seemed like the longest time apparently deep in thought. At last he raised his head and said very carefully "I think that it is too bad that so many of them are born again as ........................................... JERKS." The audience, mostly pastors and older people, sat in shocked silence for a moment before erupting in laughter and a long ovation.

And I think that's where the pride and the "lording it over other people" aspect comes in, John. Some "born again Christians" seem to feel like they've given themselves an "in" with God that others don't have. They feel that they've elevated themselves instead of feeling that they have been elevated. Someone who is born again and adopts your interpretation (which I, even as a non-Calvinist, like) would take it as a sign to be humble, I'd hope. So, like you, I don't think it's being "born again" that's the problem. It's how they interpret the experience and express that experience to others that causes the friction CH is worried about.

Being UU, I tend to view the term more broadly as a kind of renewal or revival one's spiritual life and connection with God; a feeling that you have been reconnected with the Divine Life (note the capital L), if you like.  Maybe I'll be "born again" someday, but it's not something I'm aiming for or expecting to achieve. It's something that will happen when that reconnection happens. And it should be a profoundly humbling experience, not something to boast about and lord over others. And not achieving it need not be seen negatively, either. It will happen to some and not to others and just because it hasn't happened to you doesn't mean you're a bad person or even a bad Christian.

Mendalla

go figure, Marcus Borg passing judgment, that laugh and applaud, like usual, is most time use to cover up, a very stupid comment , if i were there i would shamed him

Hi consumingfire,

That is one way of interpreting events.  It is not the way that I would interpret such an event.

For starters I take no issue at all with Borg's observation.  Being "born again" and being "jerks" are not mutually exclusive categories.  Some will use their claim of being "born again" as a license to be exceedingly critical of others.  Certainly not all will or do.

Second, some who would never describe themselves as being "born again" are also jerks.

Being human is, as far as I am aware, all that is actually needed as a pre-requisite for being a jerk.  Certain behaviours simply assure that the label sticks.

So.  Borg makes an observation that some who are born again appear to be born again as jerks.  Perhaps not the politest description and yet, not always entirely inaccurate.

Here is the kicker for me as impartial observer.  Those who cheered an applauded are demonstrating that they participate in the same jerkiness as those they happily believe to be maligned.

Borg, in the quote attributed to him, regrets that those who claim the title of "born again" are still jerks.  I don't read that as a slam of those who claim the title so much as I read it as an indictment of folk who make claims about being new creations living as the dead things they formerly were.

We can, of course, use the comments to prove that "the other" guy is just as much of a jerk and imply that perhaps they are more of a jerk.  To do that I think we have to descend to the level of jerks ourselves and at that point it doesn't really matter if we claim to be born again or not, we are all being jerks.

Defensiveness is not a fruit of the Spirit.  Love does not delight in wrong.  Both are probably more an indicator of personal jerkiness than they are piety.

Grace and peace to you.

John

Hi blackbelt,

No doubt.  For some that would have proved his point.

And in the ensuing brouahaha I wonder how many on both sides of the divide miss the point entirely?

Grace and peace to you.

John

"Born again" can be a beautiful thing. The rebirth of a faith that died, rising from one's emotional and spiritual ashes, discovering a new appreciation for life, love, and hope. These are all beautiful things.

Rev. John - you asked at some point if maybe it's not a superiority complexe but rather an inferiority complexe that takes place when we're faced with people "born again". 

If people who are "born again" didn't have an air of superiority, I'm pretty sure the expression wouldn't have developed such a bad reputation. I've met a few myself, and I have to say - they can be extremely arrogant and narrow-minded, convinced that their way is the only way. It's very frustrating being demeaned and put down for not following the same belief- system - and that's exactly what happens when faith is brought up in conversation with someone who is "born again". Granted this is a generalisation, but like i've said before, if this wasn't common, the expression wouldn't have developed the reputation that it as.

i don't think that his believing that some are jerks was  the issue,  i believe that also, but more so his choise of words

_ _ _ _ _ _ jerks

a man of his knowledge could have explained why some are like that, lack of understanding, new believers etc, but he choses not to, that makes Borg, in my jerkyness, a

_ _ _ _ _ _  jerk

Hi blackbelt,

With all due respect blackbelt you are reading a typed version of Borg's comments and I believe that it was actually rendered  . . . . . . . . jerks instead of _ _ _ _ _ _ _ jerks.

The  . . . . . . typically represents a pause.

The _ _ _ _ _ typically represents missing letters and the convention is to type most of the word, enough that it can be reasonably assumed and omit one or two letters.  The following is an example:  Calvini_t.  Thus most would guess Calvinist.

If I typed _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ there is very little chance that any would know what word I intended.

Respectfully, you leaped.  You were willing to believe the worst of Borg and you were willing to attack him at that level.  

I don't know how you would label such behaviour.  I'm hoping "born again" wouldn't be your first choice.

Grace and peace to you.

John

For me, words matter...

For me, conversion or accepting Jesus does not say "born-again" to me. It does to some others. For me, it does not mean heaven is a given. It does to others. For me, it is not a one time event. To others, it is.

One has to mean what one means and not what people assume it means.

I would say I am a "born-again". That said, I would need to explain what it does not mean to me. It does not mean I had some revelation or some God experience all the sudden. It does not mean I get a "Do Not Go To Hell" card. It does not mean I am a better Christain than anyone else. It does not mean I am any better person than someone lying in their own urine and feces someplace. For me, we are all God's children.

I woudl say I was born physically and was born spiritually.

Yet, it is not a phrase I use, because like all words, it comes with baggage and shit attached. It is one we have not cleaned off enough to make me comfortable using it.

But, for me, being "born anew", "born again"  or "born from above" is not a one time event. It is a way of life, a daily occurence of looking at my own brokenness, the worlds,  and clinging to the idea and the hope and working toward it, seeing a new life and a new heaven... it is ongoing transformation not one "bam, I am a new person" thing. It is a daily trying to be a better person. It does not have to be a trembling, quaking, crying thing or some date one could even pick that it happened. It can come in a burst and it can gently sneak up or just be. I could not tell you when it happened. It just did.

For me, no person's walk with God is superior to another's. I cannot grasp it when people judge one walk to be inferior. I am not even sure how they get there theologically and am not certain they do not just get there to feed their own egos tossing theology and God aside to get there... Why do I say that? Because, if God is in the lead (in control, predestining things, etc)  then those people follow and it will be when, where and how it is supposed to be.... If the person is in the lead and God simply waits on them, then God will always be waiting and they will go when they are ready....

Many people would not say they are born again because they think it does not apply to them or it is so sullied or comes with such baggage... they can't think of the time or the date or the way it happened (I can't pinpoint it, it evolved) ... They may not think it is a done situation (I don't) and some people would never say they are "born-again" just because of what people think it means (that is part of my reason).

For me, it means basically that the physical and the spiritual work together in concert with each other.

So, what you label your beliefs or don't matters little to me. It is not the talk you talk, it is the walk you walk that matters to me.

How are you going to shame anybody?  It takes a couple of readings to decipher your one sentence above, and you borrowed half of it from CF.  By the time you would have finished explaining why they should feel shame, most of them would have lost interest and gone home.

It is a tad cliche.

Some may. If so it is really pretty sad. I mean I believe I'm "born again" but I certainly wouldn't say that im superior to anyone. I believe I myself am the lowest of the low. Thanks be to God for his amazing grace which can save even one such as I.

Some of us believe there only is one path to God, and that is to be born again. Thus we believe anyone who is not born again is in deep serious trouble.

Thing is, I don't know anyone like the people you describe. All the people I know who would profess to be born again would ascribe their salvation to God. Personally I believe my born again experience to be a gift from God. I know of no one who claims that they gave salvation to themselves.

Although some people do seem to have a feeling of superiority connected to being Born Again, others aren't trying to show how good they are so much as to help others in the best way they know how.  I don't think it's any different from the person who irritates everyone else by talking about the dangers of smoking or eating too much junk food; when a genuinely caring person believes they have THE ANSWER to a perceived problem, he or she will naturally want to help as many people as possible by sharing the answer with everyone.  I imagine it must be quite painful to believe that you know the one true path to God and salvation while others around you reject your knowledge...especially when it's people you love whom you believe will burn for eternity in Hell.  There should be Born Agains Anonymous for Born Agains who have relatives who don't believe, just like there is Al-Anon for family members of alcoholics because I think the feeling of hopelessness and despair is probably quite similar.

My brother spent a lot of time with psychotropic drugs and some street drugs and some occassional alcohol ( which to any here who inbibe would seem ridiculously meagre) and all of it affected him badly.  His original schizophrenia was the result of the acid-laced 70's and our family DNA. One night he was suicidal and I was the only one at home and I told him ( I was 12) that even if he couldn't believe that we loved him that for sure God loved him.  He believed me. 

Subsequent to that terrifying night for both of us he was frequently born again.  All of the church people believed about it what they believed, I guess.  Frequently, individuals who have been identified by the mental health system become the hard core of  born-again fundamentalist and evangelical churches.  At my brother's memorial circle there were family and old friends and they got up and said their 2 bits, but the born-agains wanted at least 12 bits each.  and they were very sad and very boring and we were all feeling so bad and then so many people began to get really really angry that the family had to shut the born-agains down.    You know some people really believed that they or he were talking in tongues etc.  but in fact, it was just a really scared 17 year old kid who thought he wanted to kill himself and his little sister tripped out on her own fear and told him that God loved him and he wanted to bring that back some how, because it was only when she had told him that he had really believed.

Brother, I believed you.  You never had to beg or hurt yourself like that. 

Born again...free from sin....just like Jesus said...

Ironically, born again is a metaphor.   I still don't really understad metaphors.   Still I think born again is just a metaphor that the Conservative Christians have taken literally.

Dude, it's a metaphor.

Simple test:

Would someone know you were Jesus disciple if you didn't tell them?

I'd probably fail that one on a daily basis, yet I want to believe that everyday gives me a new chance to get it right. 

The best testimony for being "born again" is a life that reflects love back into the world.

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In the Bible, to be "born again" is associated with terms including new birth, resurrection, new life, new creation, renewing of the mind, dying to sin and living to righteousness, translation from darkness to light, etc^]

Jesus Christ used the "birth" analogy in tracing spiritual newness of life to a divine beginning. Contemporary Christian theologians have provided explanations for "born from above" being a more accurate translation of the original Greek word transliterated anōthen

The old ways we thought nothing of suddenly we become aware of ---For Example : when we become angry at the clerk in a store and have a feeling of ---Well I guess I told her or him off --- We tell others about the experience feeding our ego. When we become Born Again we no longer feel good about feeding our ego by yelling at the clerk --we are bothered by it.

 Being born again according to scripture is the only way to enter God's Kingdom

 John 3 v 3 (NIV) In reply Jesus declared, “I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again  

 Consider this --The Baby just messed in his or her diaper would We put a clean diaper over the dirty diaper ---The clean diaper would be of no use as the dirty diaper is attached to the flesh of the baby ------We could call the removal of the dirty diaper a new transformation to the clean unsoiled diaper.. This process is on going as the new will become once again soiled if we don't keep a watch on the signs of when to change the old to the new.   This takes work on our part   

 The Born again person must work at staying righteous -----This is not easy ----The quest is to go from a Carnal person to a completely Spiritual person -----this is as long journey and will probably not be attained in our life.   

A Carnal person is born again but still relies on his or her 5 senses 

A Spiritual person relies not on the 5 senses but on FAITH .     

Bible says the road to sin is easy -----the road to God's Kingdom is hard.  Free will to choose .  We need to renew our mind ----change the way we think --will change the we decide to act as our bodies only move to our thoughts.

Blessings  

BINGO!!!

Hi Omni,

You wrote:

"Anyone seen Jesus Camp?  Now there is a bunch of people who give "born again" a bad name."

I found Jesus Camp about one of the most frightening documentaries I've ever seen.  It was like something out of George Orwell's 1984. 

Sadly, it's the radical groups like those responsible for Jesus Camp that will get all the attention, while thousands of churches and millions of Christians will quietly go about the good work of God (the same as your faith does) with no fanfare or desire for attention.  This of course is as it should be, as we are not inspired to do the work of God for recognition or benefit, other than being right with God.

God bless,

Exactly Dave.

However, I think that some of that "good work of God" has to be shining a critical light on those radical groups that are, I think we'd both agree, a perversion of what we believe God calls us tp.

When people act as if the "stereotype" is all in the mind of the beholder, rather than acknowledging the extremes that lead to them, we don't, in my opinion, do a service to either those who raise the concern or the God whose purpose we hope to further.

Which is a high falutin' way of saying that I don't much follow the "go along and get along" philosophy"

It's not about those "who disagree with them", it's about those who promote theologies of hate and intolerance, which are in abundance.

There is a vast difference between criticizing people and criticizing ideas. Borg, Vosper, Spong et al are generally criticizing ideas and dogma whereas the Bible-believin' folk generally go for personal attack. I can find all sorts of examples, if you like.

Matthew 7:3 "Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?

And that would change their minds and hearts regarding those who are "Biblically-trained", how?