chansen
Build a Better Ten Commandments
Posted on: 08/20/2009 17:31
Something twigged this question from another thread. Everyone knows at least half of the 10 commandments, with the exception of Rep. Lynn Westmoreland (R - Georgia):
http://watch.thecomedynetwork.ca/the-colbert-report/best-of/better-know-...
(advance to 4:15 after the ad)
Now, for reference, here (in a nutshell) are the list of 10 things you must do or not do, as delivered by Moses, from God:
- You shall have no other Gods before me
- You shall not worship idols
- You shall not misuse the name of God
- Remember the Sabbath, to keep it holy
- Honor your father and mother
- You shall not murder
- You shall not commit adultery
- You shall not steal
- You shall not lie
- You shall not covet
This list is often held up as a moral compass by people like Rep. Westmorland above. I've always figured a grade 5 class could come up with a better, more moral list of 10 things one should do. Partly because the first 4 of the 10 focus on how we treat God, and not one-another.
From the other thread, each time I think of this list, I want to add, "Thou shalt not sexually abuse children". Slip it in and take out any of the first 4 points, and the list is immediately better.
What are yours? How can this be transformed into a better list of moral values?
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Comments
Arminius
Hi chansen: I don't have a
Posted on: 08/20/2009 17:47
Hi chansen:
I don't have a list of moral values.
I am a mystic, and act directly from the depths of the unitive experience. The unitive experience is an experience of synthesis, of at-one-ment with everyone and everything. The foremost feeling arising from the experience is universal, unitive love. Other motivators arising from the experienec are unitive awareness or consciousness, and unitive conscience. I feel compelled to act on those.
ninjafaery
Don't be a friggin'
Posted on: 08/20/2009 18:25
Don't be a friggin' hypocrite.
(number 11)
MorningCalm
chansen wrote: What are
Posted on: 08/20/2009 18:42
What are yours?
You shall cooperate. You shall not compete.
Timebandit
You shall mind your own
Posted on: 08/20/2009 18:50
You shall mind your own business.
(Seriously, I think a lot of discord and irritation around religion is that people are too concerned with what other people believe, whether it affects them or not.)
RAN
Matthew records Jesus'
Posted on: 08/20/2009 19:04
Matthew records Jesus' response to a question similar to yours.
35 One of them, an expert in religious law, tried to trap him with this question: 36 “Teacher, which is the most important commandment in the law of Moses?”
37 Jesus replied, “‘You must love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your mind.’[Deut] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 A second is equally important: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[Lev] 40 The entire law and all the demands of the prophets are based on these two commandments.” (NLT)
Actually Jesus is quoting 2 commandments from the Jewish scriptures, though not from the famous 10. Preachers have sometimes pointed out that the 1st focuses on our relationship with God (like the commandments 1-4 from the 10) and the 2nd focuses on our relationship with each other. Maybe you find these 2 more helpful than the 10 as a moral compass?
I think that Jesus valued the Law very much but, like Arminius, did not let the letter of the Law run his life. However, in this discussion the legal expert wanted to ask about commandments, so Jesus answered him in those terms.
You suggested replacing any one of commandments 1-4 by "You shall not sexually abuse children". Since these were written as religious laws, can we keep the original split? Commandments 1-4 to say how to treat God. Commandments 5-10 to say how to treat each other. That might be more of a challenge. Which of commandments 5-10 would you prefer to replace?
(By the way, a similar discussion in Luke 10 is famous because Jesus also answers the question "but who is my neighbour?")
Sebb
Well in Buddhism we have The
Posted on: 08/20/2009 19:20
Well in Buddhism we have The Eightfold Path wich goes like this (in no particular order)
1)Right View
2) Right Intention
(1&2 cover Wisdom)
3)Right Speech
4)Right Action
5)Right Livelyhood
(3,4&5 cover ethical conduct)
6)Right Effort
7)Right Mindfullness
8)Right Concentration
(6,7,&8 cover knowledge)
(if you want to know what each one means then I would say go here)
It would take a long time to type these all out so I posted a link above wich has information on them all but they pretty much cover everything you can think of. "The Noble Eightfold Path describes the way to the end of suffering, as it was laid out by Siddhartha Gautama. It is a practical guideline to ethical and mental development with the goal of freeing the individual from attachments and delusions; and it finally leads to understanding the truth about all things." (I quoted here because the quote (from the site posted above) sais it better than I would off the top of my head). Unlike the comandments, these are not laws but rather guidelines or sugjestions on how to live a better life and eventually enter Nirvana.
(After typing all that I almost forgot what I was going to say here, at the end of my post hehe.) I think that the comandments have many flaws that the 8fold path covers. The problem with the 8fold path that the comandments doesn't have to worry about is that the comandments are simple and can be easily explained while the 8fold path is more complicated (multiple things being coverd by each point).
peace
Elanorgold
I think yours is pretty good
Posted on: 08/21/2009 00:38
I think yours is pretty good Chansen. How bout "to thine own self be true".
clergychickita
Not to be picky, chansen, but
Posted on: 08/21/2009 01:16
Not to be picky, chansen, but I don't understand the 10 Commandments to be a "moral list." So yeah, I could create a moral list, but it wouldn't be a "better 10 commandments." For me the 10 commandments are a description of the way a community would live if it was fully living out its covenant with God. I think of them as signposts or signals that the covenant is being lived out. So they are good news for people, not hardships for them - as they describe some of the hallmarks of the way God's people would live together. Not jealously looking over a neighbour's possessions, honouring elders and marriage commitments, taking a full day off every week to remember that you were once a slave and now are free.... It's good stuff, really!
shalom
if.i.were.a.boy
Simply... Love God, Love
Posted on: 08/21/2009 01:55
Simply... Love God, Love Yourself, Love Others. This world is made of tons of different races, languages, religions, sexuality and political veiwpoints. HOW can humans love one another unconditionally? Honesty-Open mindedness-Willingness.
waterfall
Hi Chanson, Would you care
Posted on: 08/21/2009 09:33
Hi Chanson,
Would you care to share with us what you would consider a good set of commandments?
Bear in mind you must condense it into 10 and it must be poignant enough to accommadate future generations and withstand constant criticism. Take into account that the world may change---(as in sexual predators may be determined while still in the womb and be disposed of) and that some people may look only at (supposed) flaws and not the merits.
Personally I like the first four and understand their relevance.
chansen
The first four are simply the
Posted on: 08/21/2009 12:47
The first four are simply the self-serving wishes of a god with self-confidence issues. My improvements? I'm going to borrow from Dawkins, as well as this forum. In order:
1. You shall have no other Gods before me
That's fine - I don't have or need you or any gods after you, either. Completely pointless.
Alt. #1: Thou shall do unto others as you would want them to do unto you.
(The Golden Rule - a good start, though not complete, as discussed in another thread)
#2: You shall not worship idols
Same damn point as #1. Could have easily been collapsed into "Thou shall not have any gods or idols before me", and illustrates why these 10 commandments were a bad first draft, at best.
Alt #2: Thou shall not irreparably damage the earth for future generations.
#3: You shall not misuse the name of God
Because...a non-existent being might take offense?
Alt #3: Thou shall work together for the betterment of society
#4: Remember the Sabbath, to keep it holy
It's not "holy" - it's a day of the week. But there is a message to be extracted.
Alt #4: Thou shall make time for yourself and your family
#5: Honor your father and mother
As long as they deserve to be honoured, sure.
Alt. #5: Honor your father and mother, and treasure your children
#6: You shall not murder
Fair enough. As with the rest of this list, there is some room for improvement.
Alt. #6: Thou shall not murder. Seriously - stop it.
#7: You shall not commit adultery
I agree, but couldn't we collapse adultery into lying? (see below)
Alt. #7: Thou shall make decisions based on reason and fact, not superstition
#8: You shall not steal
#9: You shall not lie
Same points, really. Condense them and open up a spot for something else.
Alt. #8: Thou shall not lie or steal
Alt. #9: Thou shall not take advantage of children
#10: You shall not covet
Why not? This is prosecution for thought crime - making you feel guilty, even though you never acted. I say covet away, but be mindful of the stealing and adultery entries above.
Alt. #10: Approach all of life's problems with an open mind, a strong effort, and honourable intentions
Now, given more time, I'm sure I could improve further, but I think this is a far better set of "commandments" than what Moses showed up with, and I believe they would stand the test of time better as well.
ninjafaery
I just was reading "The Kite
Posted on: 08/21/2009 13:58
I just was reading "The Kite Runner" and in one passage where the main character was describing his father's approach to morality, he wrote that all wrongdoing is rooted in thievery of some sort.
Stealing a person's material goods is obvious, but stealing their dignity, peace, safety and security, their living, their relationships etc. is also wrong. It's all stealing and greed.
I thought that was an interesting observation.
Sebb
That's a good point Ninja,
Posted on: 08/21/2009 14:03
That's a good point Ninja, also, I've heard good things about "The Kite Runner" is it good?
RevMatt
To be fair, chansen, you're
Posted on: 08/21/2009 14:24
To be fair, chansen, you're operating in a different time and mind frame. But I do like your list.
----------
Could there possibly be a
Posted on: 08/21/2009 14:42
Could there possibly be a better 10 Commandments than the ones given by God?? I think not!
Who knows best how God should be treated but God!
Who knows best the way we should treat each other but God!
Who knows best the way we should treat ourselves but God!
If you want the best 10 Commandments, hold on tight to the originals.
chansen
Thanks, RevMatt. To address
Posted on: 08/21/2009 15:16
Thanks, RevMatt.
To address your comments about time frame (and waterfall's comments as well, I suppose), please do take a look at how much morality has changed, while God has been silent. Morality, even among Christians, has changed in the past 1900 years or so since the bible was written. It changed for the better despite religion - not because if it. You might think God would have something to say about it, but he hasn't. Unless you listen to Jerry Falwell, who said all kinds of stupid stuff about disasters being judgements from God.
So, given how much has changed, why keep the bible? Why hold onto a belief in a god who either isn't there, or doesn't care enough to pop in every once in a while?
If the 10 Commandments are a guide for living out a "covenant with God", why the low standards? As I've shown, even a godless atheist like me can improve upon them given a few minutes. For example, the covenant requires children to honour their mothers and fathers, but those parents aren't "commanded" to honour their children. In fact, they can sell them. You may call that covenant "good stuff", but I call it immoral. I want no part of it.
chansen
Jae d-twit wrote:Could there
Posted on: 08/21/2009 15:21
Who knows best how God should be treated but God!
Who knows best the way we should treat each other but God!
Who knows best the way we should treat ourselves but God!
If you want the best 10 Commandments, hold on tight to the originals.
As I think I've just shown, God doesn't know squat. He spent 40% of his time worrying about himself, said nothing of children or the planet, and repeated himself a lot. That's not the mark of someone who knows what he's doing - that's the mark of an ethically-challenged, self-centred nutcase.
RevMatt
chansen wrote: Thanks,
Posted on: 08/22/2009 07:32
Thanks, RevMatt.
To address your comments about time frame (and waterfall's comments as well, I suppose), please do take a look at how much morality has changed, while God has been silent. Morality, even among Christians, has changed in the past 1900 years or so since the bible was written. It changed for the better despite religion - not because if it. You might think God would have something to say about it, but he hasn't. Unless you listen to Jerry Falwell, who said all kinds of stupid stuff about disasters being judgements from God.
So, given how much has changed, why keep the bible? Why hold onto a belief in a god who either isn't there, or doesn't care enough to pop in every once in a while?
We have made this point before. The God you are talking about is the guy-in-the-sky, magical interventionist God. And I agree, there is no reason to believe in that kind of a God. I've said so in no uncertain terms before, and I will so again. God as I understand Her, has no need to pop in, because she's already here. But she doesn't work by coercion, which means that his ability to affect us is limited by our ability to listen. She hasn't been silent, he has continued to speak, just in other ways. The advertising slogan of the United Church of Christ in the States is "God is still speaking", and they are onto something there.
You assertion that morality has changed in spite of religion and not because of it is a half truth at best. Many men and women of faith have brought changes for the better to our societies. Sometimes organised religion has even been onside for that, although certainly institutions (religious and secular) are always slow to change. We're agreed that Jerry Falwell is a blight on humanity, though.
Why keep the Bible? Well, it is a record of how a people understood the events of their history, and so valuable on that level at least. But more to the point, it is the result a thousand years or so of ongoing theological debate about the nature of what we call God. I respect that the experience of God is not one you share, but for those of us who do, trying to find ways to put that experience into words is a lifelong challenge. The wisdom of those who have tried before is valuable. That doesn't mean that it will all resonate. Different parts will work for different people. And certainly there are documents other than the Bible that can be helpful. But one of the brilliant bits about the Bible is that it contains such an enormously wide range of viewpoints and visions, all held together as part of a greater attempt to describe a common experience.
clergychickita
You are a very confident
Posted on: 08/22/2009 19:30
You are a very confident person, chansen, to assume that we'd all agree that you have improved upon the 10 commandments with your writing. I'm afraid you don't get my vote. But I understand your struggle, I think, because you are determined to see the 10 as a giant "dos and don'ts" morality checklist. Which I do not agree it is.
The first four are about our relationship to this God who calls us into covenant. You can choose not to enter into that covenant, or mock it, as you will. But it is akin to vows made on your wedding day -- I wouldn't say my partner has self-confidence issues (or that I do) because we vowed to love and honour each other. The four are separate because they tell you that, upon entering this covenant, you remember and agree that 1) YHWH, God, is the one who brought you out of slavery, and thus is deserving of your highest fidelity, 2) you will not worship things made by human hands (like money, or perhaps Dawkins' books?), 3) God's name is sacred and should be treated with honour. The fourth commandment is a bridge between commandments that focus on God and those that focus on humanity. The sabbath is a gift to a people who were slaves -- worked 7 days a week with no respect, pay, or hope. It is tied to that memory of slavery, and thus is includes the mandate that you don't make anyone else work for you either -- but have a full day of rest and reflection. Not just for your family, but to reflect on your place in Creation, and in relationship with God. I know this means nothing to you personally.
One slight correction -- number 8 is not about lying - it is about bearing false witness, which is a rather particular context for falsehood. So I don't think you can lump adultery in with it. Besides, what if two people wanted an "open marriage" -- there'd be no lying, but still adultery...
The final commandment about coveting does internalize some of the other commandments. The commands about murder, adultery and stealing focus on external behaviour, not attitude, but coveting takes it to another level of challenge. How do we challenge ourselves to not only avoid adultery, but also to avoid fantasizing about someone other than our partner -- to not only not steal, but to find a way to be content with what we have, and not get caught up in desiring another's possessions.
The only point I agree with you on is about honouring children. It is understandable within the culture that the 10 commandments came out of, but it would still be a nice inclusion. That said, there are chapters and chapters of laws that expand on God's will for the chosen people -- the 10 commandments are not all there is. And beyond the scriptures, rabbis have discussed for centuries (creating books of midrash) what the intents and purposes of God's laws are. So rewriting a list in a few minutes is not exactly engaging all the material.
shalom
Goodskeptic
I don't think people need
Posted on: 08/22/2009 19:54
I don't think people need another list. They need to learn how to think philosophically - to use the mind they've been given and come to rational, logical conclusions about how to live morally within the realm of relationships.
Nothing on the original list - save the spiritual, faith based stuff - is beyond the scope of an individual's ability to reason out for themselves.
If individuals were capable of thinking for themselves, issues with things like homosexuality wouldn't exist - as there is no rational, logical reason to oppose the orientation of another individual.
ninjafaery
Sebb wrote: That's a good
Posted on: 08/22/2009 20:29
That's a good point Ninja, also, I've heard good things about "The Kite Runner" is it good?
I'll let you know when I'm finished -- so far, it's awesome.
Sebb
Thanks
Posted on: 08/22/2009 20:37
Thanks
Happy Genius
MY church teaches only
Posted on: 08/23/2009 01:21
MY church teaches only three:
1. Realize that relationships change
2. Realize that men lie.
3.Realize that it's best to be kind.
Cheers!
Happy Genius
clergycachita... What a truly
Posted on: 08/23/2009 01:32
clergycachita...
What a truly excellect, gladly read, greatly enjoyed post!
(I'm happy with what I have....so I got one nailed, anyway)
Cheers!
Happy Genius
chansen wrote: The first four
Posted on: 08/23/2009 02:01
The first four are simply the self-serving wishes of a god with self-confidence issues.
Well, duh! Of course! If on your very first try at creating a universe, on this slab of mud you ended up with this? What kind of grade do you think HE'll get?
I believe they would stand the test of time better as well.
But not of practice. :-)
Why not just: ' be free to speak, vote on laws and obey them'?
----
Why not just find people who disagree with you, and kill them?
(My father told me to "Shoot first and ask questions later.".I was going to ask him why, but I shot him first....) (Yeah, yeah, I know ---it's old, but it's bad..).
Arminius
Happy Genius
Posted on: 08/23/2009 20:42
clergycachita...
What a truly excellect, gladly read, greatly enjoyed post!
(I'm happy with what I have....so I got one nailed, anyway)
Cheers!
Hi Happy Genius:
Please avoid phrases like: "So I got one nailed, anyway." This is a Christian website!
troyerboy
From the Book "East and West"
Posted on: 08/23/2009 22:10
From the Book "East and West" by Gerald Green
The Noble Eightfold Path, Teachings of the Buddha
Right Knowledge
Right Intention
Right Speech
Right Conduct
Right means of livelihood
Right means of effort
Right means of mindfulness
Right concentration
Witch
Ja--d---it wrote: Could there
Posted on: 08/24/2009 03:07
Could there possibly be a better 10 Commandments than the ones given by God?? I think not!
...
If you want the best 10 Commandments, hold on tight to the originals.
Of course that's making the assumption that the 10Cs you are referring to were actually authored by God. That's a huge assumption.
All we know about the 10Cs is that people penned them. Given the complete absence of any evidence of Divine origin, and the common sense acknowledgement that forbidding sexual abuse of children is a whole lot more important than not letting people shop on Sunday.... well it's not really very likely that God holds the copyright on these.
Of course if you have some objective evidence to support your claim of Divien origin, I'd be more than happy to change my mind... No? Nothing? Alllllllllrighty then,
Modern Girl
A while ago, some people on
Posted on: 08/24/2009 08:44
A while ago, some people on Jewlicious posted a similar topic. On my own blog, I made up what I think are the most important. Here's a copy and paste of my personal list. Please note I am not Christian, and consider myself to be a secular humanist who belongs to a UU congregation.
1. Do not kill people. This inludes homicide, suicide, genocide, etc.
2. Do not abuse people, through physical violence, sexual control, verbal slurs or financial restraint.
3. Respect others who are different from you.
4. Do not make slaves or property of others. All people are equal.
5. Kill animals only as needed, and without torture.
6. Do not be wasteful, with animals, plants, or chemicals.
7. Do not steal or unfaithfully barter.
8. Do not be dishonest.
9. Practice good hygeine. Cough into your elbow and wear a condom.
10. Everything in moderation. Addictions will destroy you.
chansen
An excellent list, and
Posted on: 08/24/2009 08:50
An excellent list, and well-worded. I covet your list.
spockis53
Aquatarius wrote: chansen
Posted on: 08/24/2009 08:52
What are yours?
You shall cooperate. You shall not compete.
Hah!
That'll move you quickly to extinction in the social and natural Darwinian world.
LL&P
Spock
chansen
RevMatt wrote:We have made
Posted on: 08/24/2009 17:44
And as I've said before, if you remove God from the situation, you would expect nothing to change. No more, and no less suffering. No more, and no fewer, Superbowls for the Patriots. God is simply superfluous to our situation.
Absolutely, but they have not always done so because of what is written in the bible, but an evolved morality that is more based on changes in society.
Was a blight on humanity. The bastard is dead.
"If you gave Falwell an enema, you could bury him in a matchbox."
- Christopher Hitchens
I agree that the bible is worth studying. One reason I would add is the literary value - I find myself at a disadvantage at times because my knowledge of the bible could use improvement.
But the bible isn't just studied, like Shakespeare. It is placed on a pedestal, not a bookshelf. My point is that it is time to take it down from there and put it next to the other myths (which also described and attempted to explain observations and experiences) where it belongs.
brother
Chansen, you seem to be
Posted on: 08/24/2009 09:27
Chansen, you seem to be arguing for objective morality in the absence of God. On what basis do you assert morality is objective? What is your basis for a value given to human beings? What is you basis for objective moral duties? To whom are we to be held accountable in the end?
waterfall
Chansen, "I agree that the
Posted on: 08/24/2009 09:36
Chansen, "I agree that the bible is worth studying. One reason I would add is the literary value - I find myself at a disadvantage at times because my knowledge of the bible could use improvement."
Voila!
Tolstoy:
"I know that most men...can seldom accept even the simplest and most obvious truth if it be such as would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they have delighted in explaining to colleagues, which they have proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabrics of their lives
spockis53
brother wrote: Chansen, you
Posted on: 08/24/2009 10:10
Chansen, you seem to be arguing for objective morality in the absence of God. On what basis do you assert morality is objective? What is your basis for a value given to human beings? What is you basis for objective moral duties? To whom are we to be held accountable in the end?
Brother,
With respect to Chansen, I just had to jump in here. Morality is favourite subject of mine.
Natural morality is purely objective. The success of life is determined by naturally good decisions. No god rules are necessary.
In natural morality, humans (and their decisions) are as important as the behaviour or life cycles of any life. We are all in this together, in one very large, universal ecosystem.
Moral duties? We have a moral duty to base decisions and behavior on consequences not only for us, but for every living thing. This is where moral codes derived from belief systems fail; they consider humans as special. We are not special, and if we continue to think we are, the consequences will lead to extinction.
In the end, we are accountable to all life. The natural world and life really doesn't care if we humans make good or bad 'moral' decisions. Judgement comes from whether we survive those decisions. If we end up suffocating or drowning in the consequences of a narrow perspective, then so be it.
LL&P
Spock
MorningCalm
spockis53 wrote:That'll move
Posted on: 08/24/2009 10:25
Yes, Spock, you're right.
However, I prefer Kropotkin's idea. He perceived that what drove evolutionary advance was cooperation within a species to maximize survival against harsh external conditions.
spockis53
Kropotkin's perceptions were
Posted on: 08/24/2009 13:16
Kropotkin's perceptions were incorrect. Cooperative and competitive behaviors are just a couple of facets that operate in adapability during natural selection. Cooperation withn a species will maximize survival only if it imparts an advantage to the species within the environment being experienced.
I suspect Kropotkin, given the political philosophy of the times, was less scientific and more ideologically driven.
BTW, evolution doesn't "advance". The concept that life long ago was somehow inferior to life now is a common misunderstanding of evolution. Life simply adapts to changing circumstances.
LL&P
Spock
ninjafaery
Spock said -- "BTW, evolution
Posted on: 08/24/2009 14:10
Spock said -- "BTW, evolution doesn't "advance". The concept that life long ago was somehow inferior to life now is a common misunderstanding of evolution. Life simply adapts to changing circumstances."
I actually agree with this statement....(sigh). Any appearance of progress in human behaviour is IMO a veneer. We've apparently learned very little in several millenia. One could almost make an argument that we've regressed since our ancestors weren't equipped to do much harm.
MorningCalm
ninjafaery wrote: Spock said
Posted on: 08/24/2009 16:08
Spock said -- "BTW, evolution doesn't "advance". The concept that life long ago was somehow inferior to life now is a common misunderstanding of evolution. Life simply adapts to changing circumstances."
I actually agree with this statement....(sigh). Any appearance of progress in human behaviour is IMO a veneer. We've apparently learned very little in several millenia. One could almost make an argument that we've regressed since our ancestors weren't equipped to do much harm.
Advancement in this case does not necessarily refer to progress, to betterment, but rather to further development.
waterfall
I've posted this before. Not
Posted on: 08/24/2009 16:12
I've posted this before. Not as good as the ten commandments but it's worth a look:
Everything I Need to Know I Learned in Kindergarten
Most of what I really need to know about how to live and what to do, and how to be, I learned in kindergarten. Wisdom was not at the top of the graduate school mountain, but there in the sandbox at nursery school.
These are the things I learned:
Share everything.
Play fair.
Don't hit people.
Put things back where you found them.
Clean up your own mess.
Don't take things that aren't yours.
Say you're sorry when you hurt somebody.
Wash your hands before you eat.
Flush.
Warm cookies and cold milk are good for you.
Live a balanced life.
Learn some and think some and draw and paint and sing and dance and play and work every day some.
Take a nap every afternoon.
When you go out into the world, watch for traffic, hold hands and stick together.
Be aware of wonder.
Remember the little seed in the plastic cup? The roots go down and the plant goes up and nobody really knows how or why, but we are all like that. Goldfish and hamsters and white mice and even the little seed in the plastic cup -- they all die. So do we.
And then remember the book about Dick and Jane and the first word you learned, the biggest word of all: look.
Everything you need to know is in there somewhere. The Golden Rule and love and basic sanitation. Ecology and politics and sane living.
Think what a better world it would be if we all -- the whole world -- had cookies and milk about 3 o'clock every afternoon and then lay down with our blankets for a nap. Or if we had a basic policy in our nation and other nations to always put things back where we found them and cleaned up our own messes. And it is still true, no matter how old you are, when you go out into the world, it is best to hold hands and stick together.
~ Robert Fulghum ~
Witch
Well said Waterfall... pass
Posted on: 08/24/2009 16:15
Well said Waterfall... pass the cookies please
waterfall
Actually it was Robert
Posted on: 08/24/2009 16:27
Actually it was Robert Fulgham, but I'll share my cookies.
Witch
Oh yes I see now. There were
Posted on: 08/24/2009 16:33
Oh yes I see now. There were crumbs on the screen
waterfall
This should
Posted on: 08/24/2009 16:47
This should help
http://doglickingscreen.com/
Modern Girl
Thank you Chansen! :)
Posted on: 08/24/2009 17:11
Thank you Chansen! :)
RevMatt
That dog has traumatised me.
Posted on: 08/24/2009 18:19
That dog has traumatised me. If I don't sleep tonight, it's your fault, waterfall! :)
brother
Spock- “Natural
Posted on: 08/24/2009 19:25
Spock-
“Natural morality is purely objective. The success of life is determined by naturally good decisions. No god rules are necessary……
…..In the end, we are accountable to all life. The natural world and life really doesn't care if we humans make good or bad 'moral' decisions. Judgement comes from whether we survive those decisions. If we end up suffocating or drowning in the consequences of a narrow perspective, then so be it.”
It seems that the objective basis you are proposing for morality is decided on whether I survive my decisions or not. So, what if I make a decision that has me surviving and others not while I benefit. Since I don’t suffer or drown, based on your criteria, who is to say my actions are not naturally good? If the consequences I endure are ultimately the only arbiter of morality, why then ought I care about the natural world or other lives, so long as I can personally benefit and still survive the day? If humans have no transcendent value, why should I care if anyone is affected by my quest for personal gain or pleasure? If Hitler had survived and won the war, improving the human race through eugenics, would your foundation of morality not make him a moral champion? What or who holds me accountable to all life?
Witch
Brother: Are you caliming
Posted on: 08/24/2009 20:15
Brother:
Are you caliming that there is a morality higher than any devised by humans?
If so, please show us by way of objective evidence that such exists.
Goodskeptic
brother wrote: It seems that
Posted on: 08/24/2009 21:13
It seems that the objective basis you are proposing for morality is decided on whether I survive my decisions or not. So, what if I make a decision that has me surviving and others not while I benefit. Since I don’t suffer or drown, based on your criteria, who is to say my actions are not naturally good? If the consequences I endure are ultimately the only arbiter of morality, why then ought I care about the natural world or other lives, so long as I can personally benefit and still survive the day?
Surviving life is a long-term proposition Brother. If you make successive, moment to moment decisions that seek to maximize your benefit at the expense of others around you - you're likely not going to survive "life" as your actions would likely preclude others from ever dealing with you in the future. Unless you possess all possible skills and knowledge necessary to live and produce on your own - you're going to need other people, dealing fairly and honestly with you, to survive beyond the "moment".
From this reasoning, a natural, objective basis for morality develops.
waterfall
Rev. Matt how can you be
Posted on: 08/25/2009 08:00
Rev. Matt how can you be traumatized by such a cute little puppy? Hope you slept well. LOL.