http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article/838717--can-a-dog-receive-commun...
Well, one apparently did at an Anglican church in Toronto, and one parishoner went ape over it.
According to the account Yu heard, the man asked the reverend to give the dog a wafer. But Needham says she doesn’t recall the man making such a request. Instead, she said Rev. Rea instinctively leaned over and placed a wafer on the dog’s wagging tongue
I think that was pretty cool of Mr. Rea. They invited the man in, he was just following what others were doing, and the dog took part in what I've recently heard described as a game of "Swallow the Leader".
Good for them.
As for the complaint? "...at least one parishioner saw the act as an affront to the rules and regulations of the Anglican Church. He filed a complaint with the reverend and with the Anglican Diocese of Toronto about the incident – and has since left the church."
As I see it, an Anglican church lost one congregant, and gained two.
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Comments
seeler
I can't see any problem with
Posted on: 07/22/2010 08:34
I can't see any problem with it. So the dog got a little piece of bread.
My only concern would be for people who might be allergic to dogs, sitting in their pew, only to find a dog sitting next to them. They might have to move to another part of the sanctuary.
In the UCC I attend there is a young woman who sometimes brings her dog to church with her. It is small, elderly, and quiet. It sits beside her or on her lap. Few people even know it is there, but those who do don't seem to mind. I sometimes pat it, with her permission. If she were to have it with her on communion Sunday she would probably carry it under her arm as she went forward for communion. I can't see anybody minding if she or the minister gave it a little square of bread (we don't use wafers). It would be a whole different thing if it were to dip in the common cup.
RitaTG
.......makes me want to bring
Posted on: 07/22/2010 09:19
.......makes me want to bring my dog to church!
Thank you for this story Chasen ...... this is wonderful!
Seems we can find those hair splitting pharasees that Jesus talked about pretty much anywhere.....
You seem to have nailed it with your "lost one ...gained two" ...... almost ....
Actually I would suggest the complainer was lost a long time ago .... how very sad ....
When a wonderful relationship and a wonderful symbolic act of rememberance has to be gutted of its true intent and bullied about by invoking rules that were never intended for that purpose then I feel we need to stand up and perhaps do a little "temple cleansing" ourselves. I really don't like the smell of religious mothballs.....
Hmmmm ..... seems like you have inspired me to add to my "To Do" list Chasen.
Hugs
Rita
DKS
We have a church dog named
Posted on: 07/22/2010 09:43
We have a church dog named Tongo. He's part Lab and part Bloodhound. He is our Director Of Greetings and Associate Caretaker Responsible for the Cleaning of Carpets. He is also in charge of security. He is well-loved and much appreciated by everyone.
Back in June, when we were celebrating communion, a piece of bread fell off one of the bread plates and ended up on the floor. Normally I clean that up during the last hymn. But not this time. Tongo trotted down the aisle first, headed for coffee after church and snapped up the fallen bread before I could get to it. No one said anything, although lots of people saw it.
DKS
RitaTG wrote: .Seems we can
Posted on: 07/22/2010 09:46
.Seems we can find those hair splitting pharasees that Jesus talked about pretty much anywhere.....
You seem to have nailed it with your "lost one ...gained two" ...... almost ....
Actually I would suggest the complainer was lost a long time ago .... how very sad ....
When a wonderful relationship and a wonderful symbolic act of rememberance has to be gutted of its true intent and bullied about by invoking rules that were never intended for that purpose then I feel we need to stand up and perhaps do a little "temple cleansing" ourselves. I really don't like the smell of religious mothballs.....
I disagree. I fully understand the protester's concern. If one believes in transubstantiation and that the host is the body of Christ after consecration, then they would see this as disrespectful. They are certainly not "lost" nor do they deserve the label of Pharisee.
Hilary
I can see both sides of the
Posted on: 07/22/2010 10:26
I can see both sides of the issue. I can understand why it would be instinctual to feed a dog when everyone else is eating, too. And I can understand why a person would be upset, but I can't imagine leaving a beloved congregation over such a thing.
My biggest concern, as seeler mentioned, is why the dog was in church in the first place. If it's a guide dog, I don't think that the minister should be interacting with the dog. If it's not a guide dog, I don't think that it belongs in church.
DKS
Hilary wrote: My biggest
Posted on: 07/22/2010 10:31
My biggest concern, as seeler mentioned, is why the dog was in church in the first place. If it's a guide dog, I don't think that the minister should be interacting with the dog. If it's not a guide dog, I don't think that it belongs in church.
Our church dog is a failed Guide Dog.
chansen
DKS wrote: Hilary wrote: My
Posted on: 07/22/2010 11:48
My biggest concern, as seeler mentioned, is why the dog was in church in the first place. If it's a guide dog, I don't think that the minister should be interacting with the dog. If it's not a guide dog, I don't think that it belongs in church.
Our church dog is a failed Guide Dog.
I think "a dog who is too independent-minded to be a Guide Dog" is probably a better way of putting it.
chansen
DKS wrote: I disagree. I
Posted on: 07/22/2010 11:50
I disagree. I fully understand the protester's concern. If one believes in transubstantiation and that the host is the body of Christ after consecration, then they would see this as disrespectful. They are certainly not "lost" nor do they deserve the label of Pharisee.
Something I've always wondered: How many crackers do you have to consume before you've eaten a whole Jesus?
RitaTG
DKS ..... I see your point
Posted on: 07/22/2010 11:50
DKS ..... I see your point .....
Perhaps I was a bit too rash.... (well ....more than perhaps...)
Hugs
Rita
RevMatt
chansen wrote: DKS wrote: I
Posted on: 07/22/2010 11:52
I disagree. I fully understand the protester's concern. If one believes in transubstantiation and that the host is the body of Christ after consecration, then they would see this as disrespectful. They are certainly not "lost" nor do they deserve the label of Pharisee.
Something I've always wondered: How many crackers do you have to consume before you've eaten a whole Jesus?
Yeah, the whole transubstantion thing is pretty silly, really.
joejack2
A dog can eat bread and drink
Posted on: 07/22/2010 12:10
A dog can eat bread and drink wine, but it's not communion. It's only a hunk of bread and something to drink. Such things happen when you have Christianity without (theological) content.
RitaTG
DKS .... I went back over my
Posted on: 07/22/2010 12:18
DKS .... I went back over my first post again ...... my goodness I am such a snippy thing sometimes!
Lesson learned ..... don't go posting while I am hurting about something in my life.....
Please excuse the tone of my outburst ...... that is not the way I want to be....
Hugs
Rita
chansen
joejack2 wrote: A dog can eat
Posted on: 07/22/2010 12:18
A dog can eat bread and drink wine, but it's not communion. It's only a hunk of bread and something to drink. Such things happen when you have Christianity without (theological) content.
Wait a sec...after consecration, is the cracker supposed to be the body of Christ or not? And where is it in the bible that the bread is only the body of Christ if it is consumed by a person, but not the body of Christ if it is consumed by, say, a duck?
Witch
Transubstantiation is not a
Posted on: 07/22/2010 12:40
Transubstantiation is not a doctrine of the Anglican Chruch, although I am told that some Anglicans adhere to it.
So while it may have been an issue for the singular person who objected, transubstantiation is not an issue for the Anglican Church.
joejack2
chansen wrote: Wait a
Posted on: 07/22/2010 12:43
Wait a sec...after consecration, is the cracker supposed to be the body of Christ or not? And where is it in the bible that the bread is only the body of Christ if it is consumed by a person, but not the body of Christ if it is consumed by, say, a duck?
Not everybody believes in transubstantiation. Check out the four Reformations: the Protestant Reformations (both in Germany and the reformation in lands beyond Germany), the English Reformation (i.e., Anglicans), and the Catholic Reformation for further info. Some people receive communion and, to them, it's just a piece of bread and some wine/grape juice. To others, it represents the body and blood of Christ and to the third group, it IS the body and blood of Christ. Some ecclestiastical bodies use it as a 'reminder' or a 'symbol' rather than accept the 'real presence'. I'm not going to 'dis' those who disagree with me. It needs to be clarified that there is diversity of opinion regarding the 'real presence' and to paint the whole church with the same brush is academically and theologically untenable.
Witch
joejack2 wrote: Such things
Posted on: 07/22/2010 12:43
Such things happen when you have Christianity without (theological) content.
How, exactly, do you manage to have Christianity without theological content? That's kind of like having ketchup without tomatoes.
Even if you happen to disagree with the other person's variety of Christianity, you can't really reasnobaly claim they don't have theological content, since the religion, and indeed even the sect, is defined by theological content.
joejack2
A good treatment of
Posted on: 07/22/2010 12:53
A good treatment of transubstantiation is given in Wikipedia for a concise view of the historic views before and after the Reformation. Some of the 'high church' Anglicans who consider themselves 'English Catholic' adhere to transubstantiation. Thanks for you comment, Witch. It is possible to operate under 'christian' principles (small 'c') without necessarily accepting 'orthodox' doctrine. It's a stretch, but human beings are quite the inventive, resourceful creatures.
InannaWhimsey
RitaTG wrote: DKS .... I went
Posted on: 07/22/2010 12:58
DKS .... I went back over my first post again ...... my goodness I am such a snippy thing sometimes!
Lesson learned ..... don't go posting while I am hurting about something in my life.....
Please excuse the tone of my outburst ...... that is not the way I want to be....
Hugs
Rita
Don't worry, RitaTG, you and DKS are both right. And both wrong. At the same time :3
Just like that congregant was right and wrong with how they reacted.
(not to mention taking a part in a ritual that is both delusional and not-delusional and meaningless...all at the same time)
blackbelt
Jesus at the last supper
Posted on: 07/22/2010 13:28
lastpointe
I think that was an error on
Posted on: 07/22/2010 13:30
I think that was an error on the part of the owner.
Communion is a sacrament and not intended for pets, at least to me.
I can see why others would be upset.
Our church does do a pet blessing service in the spring for owners of our church adn we get neighbours too.
We hold it outside on the lawn. There are hymns, a short sermon on the love and value that our animal companions bring to us and then each owner brings the pet up to the minister who places hands on and blesses them. It is a lovely way, for expecially the lonely seniors, to have these important family members acknowledged.
waterfall
Would those be the crumbs
Posted on: 07/22/2010 13:49
Would those be the crumbs that the dogs eat from their masters table?
chansen
blackbelt wrote: Jesus at
Posted on: 07/22/2010 13:52
blackbelt
chansen wrote: I can
Posted on: 07/22/2010 13:59
i have met many intelligent atheist and good hearted ones, but your just simply an asshole
waterfall
Without assholes we'd all
Posted on: 07/22/2010 14:06
Without assholes we'd all have cramps and the you know what would fly out of our mouths.
DKS
chansen wrote: DKS wrote: I
Posted on: 07/22/2010 14:58
I disagree. I fully understand the protester's concern. If one believes in transubstantiation and that the host is the body of Christ after consecration, then they would see this as disrespectful. They are certainly not "lost" nor do they deserve the label of Pharisee.
Something I've always wondered: How many crackers do you have to consume before you've eaten a whole Jesus?
42.
Or a crumb.
It doesn't matter.
DKS
chansen wrote: DKS
Posted on: 07/22/2010 15:00
My biggest concern, as seeler mentioned, is why the dog was in church in the first place. If it's a guide dog, I don't think that the minister should be interacting with the dog. If it's not a guide dog, I don't think that it belongs in church.
Our church dog is a failed Guide Dog.
I think "a dog who is too independent-minded to be a Guide Dog" is probably a better way of putting it.
No. He was too excitable. He also hates thunderstorms.
DKS
waterfall wrote: Without
Posted on: 07/22/2010 15:02
Without assholes we'd all have cramps and the you know what would fly out of our mouths.
No, our eyes would turn brown and our ears would leak...
seeler
Blackbelt - at my former
Posted on: 07/22/2010 15:15
Blackbelt - at my former church we didn't know what to do with the left over bread after communion. So we left it sitting in the kitchen until it got mouldy and then we threw it out. That didn't make sense, so we started putting it out with the cookies and coffee at fellowship time and anybody could tear off a hunk and eat it. What was left we threw out on the lawn for the birds and little woodland animals (we had a lot of shrubs and a patch of forest). In your opinion was it sacriligious for birds and squirrels to eat the bread, or just for a dog to do so? Or is it the timing - would it have been alright to give the dog a piece of left over bread but not while others were receiving communion?
blackbelt
@ Seeler it wasn't the bread
Posted on: 07/22/2010 15:45
@ Seeler
it wasn't the bread its self but the fact that it was given jurying a communion service , i see it as an abuse of the Lords supper.
Abraham , was told by God to remove your shoes for you are standing on holy ground, a sign of respect and honor to God and though today we live under grace, post resurrection we cant even give Honor and Respect to Christ at his supper?
disgusting because the act came from a believer
chansen
FWIW, nowhere in the article
Posted on: 07/22/2010 16:08
FWIW, nowhere in the article does it say the dog was wearing shoes.
crazyheart
I wonder why you would want
Posted on: 07/22/2010 16:47
I wonder why you would want your dog, or cat or hamster to take communion.
Witch
joejack2 wrote: It is
Posted on: 07/22/2010 17:11
It is possible to operate under 'christian' principles (small 'c') without necessarily accepting 'orthodox' doctrine. It's a stretch, but human beings are quite the inventive, resourceful creatures.
So you're claiming that not adhereing to "orthodox" (ie, what you happen to have chosen to believe) doctrine renders a Christian without theology......
Interesting
So a Christian who believes slightly differently than you actually isn't a Christian at all....
Hmmmm.....
Have you made God aware of your rules regarding this? You wouldn't want HIm leting the wrong sorts of people into the Kingdom, after all.
chansen
crazyheart wrote: I wonder
Posted on: 07/22/2010 17:16
I wonder why you would want your dog, or cat or hamster to take communion.
Well, not a hamster, obviously. That would be silly. And probably hold up the line.
Witch
WEll at least the hamster is
Posted on: 07/22/2010 17:21
WEll at least the hamster is a herbivore... bread wise
chansen
A quote from the article that
Posted on: 07/22/2010 17:21
A quote from the article that just caught my eye:
I like that it can be interpreted in two distinctly different ways.
chansen
Witch wrote: WEll at least
Posted on: 07/22/2010 17:24
WEll at least the hamster is a herbivore... bread wise
That's an excellent point. If, for example, you believe in transubstantiation, imagine your inner conflict if you were also a vegetarian!
Alex
I would think that it might
Posted on: 07/22/2010 17:33
I would think that it might make sense and be considered a good idea for certain Christian theologies. After all we have theologies which declare all life is sacred, and that human life is no more scared to God than other life.
I tend to think of communion as representative of the banquet God has prepared for us on Earth, and the equality of all humanity before God.
So if in this time of ecological crisis, Jesus might be seen as having a message or meaning only to humans, but is not creation and the banquet God provides for us through creation meant for all life?
Are there not cats, dogs, and hamsters in Paradise?
Alex
It also raises the
Posted on: 07/22/2010 17:46
It also raises the disturbing thought that pigs and cows are also in Paradise, and if people give them communion, do those of us who would than eat the cow and the pig be doing something unholy, or something doubly holy, especially if one believes in transubstantiation?
What if another animal ate the cow, and we ate that animal?
It is called Wondercafe for a reason
Witch
chansen wrote: Witch
Posted on: 07/22/2010 17:54
WEll at least the hamster is a herbivore... bread wise
That's an excellent point. If, for example, you believe in transubstantiation, imagine your inner conflict if you were also a vegetarian!
or your delight if a cannibal...
Which brings one to wonder how the missionaries managed in Papua New Guinea when they were blackmai...er I mean converting the cannibals there.
"You must stop eating the flesh and drinking the blodd of your enemies... Now here, eat the flesh and drink the blood of Jesus..."
chansen
*cue commercial* "We are
Posted on: 07/22/2010 18:02
*cue commercial*
"We are here with a tribe of cannibals in Papua New Guinea, where we've secretly replaced the human meat they usually serve with Folgers Eucharist Crackers. Let's see if anyone can tell the difference!"
Alex
seeler wrote: My only
Posted on: 07/22/2010 18:05
My only concern would be for people who might be allergic to dogs, sitting in their pew, only to find a dog sitting next to them. They might have to move to another part of the sanctuary.
This raises the issue of how creating accessibility for some people with disabilities can cause barriers for others.
More and more people are using animals to over come barriers for people with disabilities, seeing -eye dogs for those with vision problems are well know. However we are also seeing animals being used for people who have hearing disabilities, physical disabilities, and a lot of people also use animals to help them overcome barriers related to anxiety disorders. I heard an interview on CBC about a women who had been attacked by a man and suffered life threatening injuries as a result. After her body had healed, she still could not go anywhere without her dog.
.
Perhaps this man's dog was not just a pet, but a necessity. Anyway we should be prepared as more and more people will be going to church with animals, which will affect not just those with allergies, but also others.
Alex
chansen wrote: *cue
Posted on: 07/22/2010 18:08
*cue commercial*
"We are here with a tribe of cannibals in Papua New Guinea, where we've secretly replaced the human meat they usually serve with Folgers Eucharist Crackers. Let's see if anyone can tell the difference!"
That's easy, one tastes like chicken, and the other tastes like crackers.
Witch
Actually human tastes a lot
Posted on: 07/22/2010 18:16
Actually human tastes a lot like pork
*blink*
I mean, so I've been told.... of course....
joejack2
Witch wrote: joejack2
Posted on: 07/22/2010 18:28
It is possible to operate under 'christian' principles (small 'c') without necessarily accepting 'orthodox' doctrine. It's a stretch, but human beings are quite the inventive, resourceful creatures.
So you're claiming that not adhereing to "orthodox" (ie, what you happen to have chosen to believe) doctrine renders a Christian without theology......
Interesting
So a Christian who believes slightly differently than you actually isn't a Christian at all....
Hmmmm.....
Have you made God aware of your rules regarding this? You wouldn't want HIm leting the wrong sorts of people into the Kingdom, after all.
A good starter book for you would be 'Ye Are The Body' by Bonnell Spencer. Very thorough and readable.
Witch
joejack2 wrote: Witch
Posted on: 07/22/2010 18:45
It is possible to operate under 'christian' principles (small 'c') without necessarily accepting 'orthodox' doctrine. It's a stretch, but human beings are quite the inventive, resourceful creatures.
So you're claiming that not adhereing to "orthodox" (ie, what you happen to have chosen to believe) doctrine renders a Christian without theology......
Interesting
So a Christian who believes slightly differently than you actually isn't a Christian at all....
Hmmmm.....
Have you made God aware of your rules regarding this? You wouldn't want HIm leting the wrong sorts of people into the Kingdom, after all.
A good starter book for you would be 'Ye Are The Body' by Bonnell Spencer. Very thorough and readable.
And why would you assume I'd need a "starter" book? Please don't make the foolish mistake of assuming that just because I'm not a Christian now that I don't know anything about it.
I notice you didn't actually answer any of my points either. I understand if you find it difficult to refute them.
MorningCalm
The only dog that can be
Posted on: 07/22/2010 18:47
The only dog that can be regularly found at my church is a working dog of a blind woman who sometimes attends our Wednesday night Bible study.
As for a dog receiving communion, it would not be considered proper in my denomination. We tend to believe that only Christ died only for the sins of human beings. Dogs, however, do not sin. They are just dogs. Only we humans are capable of accepting Christ and so enjoying fellowship with God.
joejack2
Another great resource is:
Posted on: 07/22/2010 18:49
Another great resource is: "The Christian Faith: An Introduction To Dogmatic Theology" by Claude Beaufort Moss, available free online. I am not here to refute, I'm here to proclaim. I set my own agenda(e).
joejack2
Witch wrote: And why would
Posted on: 07/22/2010 18:52
And why would you assume I'd need a "starter" book? Please don't make the foolish mistake of assuming that just because I'm not a Christian now that I don't know anything about it.
You'd be surprised how little you know about it. That is, until you actually get into it. Another great resource is "The Christian Religion" by Vernon Staley.
Witch
joejack2 wrote: You'd be
Posted on: 07/22/2010 19:29
You'd be surprised how little you know about it.
You'd be surprised how foolish assumptions make you look. I wwas a fundamentalist "orthadox" as you put it, Christian for many years. I attended on of the best fundamentalist conservative Christian theological seminaries while I was in training for the ministry.
And yes, I understand that you will likely now resort to the same old tired fundie fallacies of "just because you claimed to be a Christian", or "scholarship means nothing", or "You couldn't have been a TRUE Christian", and I understand your need to purport that anyone who disagrees with your fundie attitudes is simply lacking in understanding. Nothiong new there.
Yes you obviously are here to pro-yourself claim. And, like most fundies you don't want to refute, or rather address, because that would mean you'd have to actually take responsibility for your spurious claims, and actually address the points other people make, rather than just get up on your soapbox and preach where you can look all-important like and holy"
Yes you fundies usually do. Which is one of the reasons your particular brand of Christianity is in a 200 year death spiral.
DKS
Do we really need the ad
Posted on: 07/22/2010 21:05
Do we really need the ad hominem remarks?