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The Case for an Afterlife

Initially I wlll discuss evidence derived from unusual cases that cannot be found in books on Near-Death Experiences (NDEs).  Then I will expand the discussion to include pre-death experiences and alleged cases of After-Death contact (ADCs).  I begin with Phyllis's 2 NDEs. 

I met Phyllis at a wedding reception held at a golf course in Buffalo, NY.  She had 2 PhDs in medically related fields and was a medical researcher.  She was charming in an icily aloof way--a fact important to understanding her dilemma.  In my current role as a United Methodist pastor, I had performed a wedding, and she felt prompted to ask me about her strange NDEs.  (1) She was in a car accident and had lost consciousness when she experienced her first NDE.  She found herself "in a mall that wasn't really a mall; it was a mall of white light."  As she wandered through, she heard beautiful unearthly music, apparently from a hidden orchestra.  As she strolled towards the music, she encountered several tables in what looked like a food court area with no food.  She was shocked to see her recently deceased mother seated at a table.  Phyllis sat down, but would soon regret doing so.  Her Mom scolded her: "Why haven't you come to terms with my death?  You need to grieve my passing.  Your failure to do so is hindering my spiritual progress over here."  Phyllis had some issues with her Mom that she didn't care to share, but she clearly had reacted to this death by detaching from her emotions.  Phyllis recovered from her injuries and tried to put this NDE out of her mind.

(2) A couple of years later, she developed a life-threatening female-related illness that she never identified for me.  I sensed it was breast cancer.  She was seriously ill enough to be rushed to the hospital and to lose consciousness as she was immersed in a 2nd NDE.  Once again, she found herself in the mall of white light, and once again, found herself seated opposite her irate mother.  "Why haven't you come to terms with my death like I asked you.  Do you want to impede my progress here?"  Then Mom pointed down at the table of white light and insisted: `You need to make this table vanish.'"  The table apparently symbolized an unhealthy psychological link that needed to be dissolved.  Phyllis was unable or unwilling to comply; so she just sat there and sulked.  She found no comfort in the beautiful orchestra music in the background.  Finally, she sighed, saying, "Well, I guess I'll try to get back to my body now."  Her Mom, interrupted her: "No, you're not raedy to return to your body.  You need to go with these 2 gentlemen."  At that, 2 large men in white robes appeared and took Phyllis to "an elevator that wasn't really an elevator.  It was an elevator of white light."  As the 3 "ascended," she was taken to what she could only describe as some sort of spirit hospital in Paradise, where a "medical procedure" that she didn't understand was performed on her spirit body.  When she was returned to her body, her disease was totally cured; she no longer needed the scheduled emergency surgery.  Somehow I suspect that she never did allow herself to grieve her mother's loss. It has been claimed by mystics that our grief can impede the progress of our loved ones on the other side.  Phyllis seemd to encounter the opposite!   She was incapable of grief.  I never discovered the dysfunctional issues in their relationship.  But the verification (i. e. the healing) of the genuineness of her experiences intrigues me. 

 

 

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(2) AB is a prominent retired United Church pastor. I am narrating the NDE he shared with me after publishing his own account in a Canadian newspaper. On a Tuesday, AB’s Dad was dying in a nursing home. Suddenly the Dad sat up, gazed intently in the distance, and exclaimed, “Hurry up, brother! Hurry up!” Then he passed away and AB noted the exact time. What AB didn’t realize was that his Dad’s brother was simultaneously dying in another nursing home 10 miles away in the presence of family witnesses. That brother also suddenly sat, up, gazed in the distance, and exclaimed, “Wait for me, brother! Wait for me!” The he too passed away—at the same time of the same day as his brother, AB’s Dad! Family witnesses later confirmed both the words and the timing of the death of these 2 brothers. Apparently, they were able to see each other in a spiritual dimension as they were in the process of permanently detaching from their bodies. Their conversation meshes together perfectly and reflects the fact that one brother was ahead of the other on his journey into the new horizons of death. This incident is one of the best pieces of evidence for postmortem survival I have ever encountered.

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(3) MY DEATH PREMONITIONS:

(a) I had been Dallas's Best Man in his recent wedding in Winnipeg and after Christmas he invited me over for dinner.  Afterwards, he, his wife, and I played table tennis in his basement.  He calmly informed me that he was going deer hunting in northern Manitoba with some friends.  With no warning, I had a premonition that he would be killed on this trip.  It felt like I saw his skeleton as I experienced a dreadful sense of foreboding.  I tried to talk him out of going, but he suggested that I was just squeamish about hunting.  I had never gone hunting, but assured him that I was not against it.  Dallas assured me that he'd take every precaution.  That New Year's eve, we had a service in my church.  Some teen age girls asked me if I'd heard about Dallas. whom they knew as the leader of their youth group.  They knew he was my friend.  They giggled as they notified me that he had been killed.  His snowmobile had hit a bump and his rifle had accidentally discharged into his shoulder.  He bled to death.  Their insensitive giggling appalled me and seemed like God mocking me for being unable to talk him out of the trip.

 

(b) I was a 2nd-year student at Princeton Seminary and was about to go back to Winnipeg for Christmas.  My friend Ted had just been accepted into the doctoral program at Cambridge U.  I wanted to apply there too; so I went to his dorm room to borrow his Cambridge catalogue for information.  While we talked, I again had a dreadful sense of foreboding as I sensed his skeleton.  But I deemed it futile to say anything because this time I had no idea how he would be killed.  When I returned from Christmas vacation, I learned that Ted and a friend were planning to drive home to Ohio and were entering the onramp of a New Jersey freeway.  The car spun out of control on the icy onramp. Ted was kiilled and his friend broke an arm. 

 

(c) Later, I became a Theology professor at St. Bonaventure University in southwestern New York.  Summer was beginning.  I was burned out and in desperate need of a vacation.  That weekend, I suddenly knew that someone affecting my life was going to die, but this time, I had no idea who was in danger.  I tried to put it out of my mind as paranoia created by my prior 2 premonitions. I was obsessed by this question: "Would you be willing to give up your summer to fill a void?"  "What void?"  I wondered.  As the weekend progressed, I became even more certain and more frightened.  I wondered if one of my parents was going to die imminently.  When Monday came, I tried to brush these thoughts off and planned to go out for breakfast.  As I approached the door, an inner voice seemed to yell, "Sit down!  You'll hear about the daeth now!"  Startled, I sat down by the phone and it immediately rang.  Dr. Whelan, the Chair of Graduate Theology called and was frantic: "Don, Cassian Corcoran didn't show up to teach his summer course on Pauline Theology.  So students went to the friary to find out if he forgot.  A friar friend eventually found Cassian dead in bed.  Now you're the only one around trained to teach that course with no notice.  Will you do it?"  Of course, I complied.  God had prepared my heart to step in.

 

(d) Several years later, I was the interim pastor of a United Church of Christ in Buffalo, NY.  I led a small weekly prayer meeting.  Soon I felt compelled to form a prayer circle and ask the group to pray for the physical protection of each member and their families.  It was summer and family members were traveling; so the group felt nothing out of the ordinary by my request.  But I sensed someone was in danger.  Somehow I knew that if we didn't continue to pray for the group's protection, someone in the group or a family member would die.  My interim pastorate ended and the new pastor cancelled the prayer group.  I became obsessed with the thought that this was a fatal mistake, but the church was now none of my business. 

 

Shortly thereafter, Nick, Hr., the son of a prayer group regular, hung himself in his mother Eleanor's garage while she was attending a friend's funeral.  Nick was distraught over a recent divorce and was living with his widowed mother.  A couple of weeks later, I had sped-walked 7 miles when I noticed a note taped to my windshield, saying that Eleanor had just been killed in a fiery car crash. Her sister Joan told me about a premonitory dream Eleanor had shared with her the night before.  Eleanor's deceased husband, Nick, Sr., came down the stairs of her 2-story house and asked her to come up and dance with him and a host of dead relatives.  Eleanor loved to dance, but declined because she sensed dancing was a harbinger of death.  Such dreams are not uncommon and are known in parapsychology as take-away visions. 

 

Her sister Joan told me that Nick, Sr. had died from a heart attack while shoveling snow as a a young man.  At the time of death for Nick, Sr., Nick, Jr., and Eleanor, the clock on their living room wall stopped.  Just think of it!  The clock stopped at the time of all 3 deaths.  Somehow Joan and I sensed these events as a sign that divine providence had been at work, despite appearances.  This whole episode reinforced my faith in an afterlife.

Despite the fact that I have never had a false premonition, the lesson I eventually drew from all these paranormal experiences  is that the future is not fixed. Instead of trying to put these thoughts out of my mind, I should have prayed regularly and fervently for deliverance from these anticipated deaths.

   

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Hi Berserk

I completely accept all that you have written.

I assume you have been reading all of the "NDE" and "Into the Light" books you can find.

In the case of Phyllis, she was given the exact message of what she had to do. I would assume she knew what the issue was but refused to handle it. That has to be her decision. I doubt that the mother was really being held back. Rather it was a mechanism to get her daughter to move forward.

You said you should have "prayed regularly and fervently for deliverance from these anticipated deaths."  I don't think so. Each of those people has moved on with their development, a process that continues after death and on into the next and the next life. It was their decision. If you can actually do something to help before the "event", then do so. Prayer might be part of this in terms of silently helping the individual.  But don't feel responsible afterwards.

The person who has died is actually in better shape than you and I so don't feel sorry for them. But we all do hope that they were dying at the right time for them - at a time normally selected prior to their birth.

 

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Berserk

Welcome to the WonderCafe where we wonder...and wonder....and wonder  .

 

Very interesting. I have to read it a few more times before commenting. I've read a lot of NDE experiences and other stuff  similiar to what you mention  but nothing like what you are posting. Do you have links, not that it matters.

 

I have heard of a dead man who was channelled by a medium telling family members that aunt Mary  (as an example) was also there with him. It was true that aunt  Mary had died but none of the family members knew it at the time. Very mysterious stories.....

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 When I was 17, an elderly Maori woman looked into my eyes, told me Tangaroa had eaten my heart when i was young (younger even than 17) and that meant the horizon was my home. When I die, a mako will be waiting to take my soul home. I am comfortable with that.

 

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Thanks for your replies.  In the unfamiliar realm of such exotic paranormal experiences, it is tempting to prematurely decide whether one believes such accounts or not.  In my view, it is a mistake to succumb to this temptation.  We don't really choose our mystical beliefs; rather, they sneak up on us as we obsess over spiritual issues that viscerally engage us.  In my view, the best policy is to live the questions and wait for any convictions that bubble up from the unconscious.  Or put more piously, we must wait and expect to be led by the Spirit.  

 

My death premonitions have convinced me that people are dead who would be alive if the right people prayed regularly in the right way.  What this means in practice, though, is clouded by a rat's nest of theological problems arising from the mysteries of prayer and divine intervention.  That might be an intriguing subject for another thread. 

 

I do suspect that, like Phyllis's Mom, the progress of our loved ones can be inhibited by left over psychological baggage.  Mediums often insist that excessive grieving can retard such progress, but I'm very skeptical of channeled material.  For me, the Mom's complaint points to a larger question that I can only address in a preliminary way:  Why do our discarnate loved ones not contact us more often in a compelling and healing way?  50% of Americans and 49% of Brits claim some form of reassuring contact with deceased loved ones during the first year after the death.  After that, such contacts are relatively rare.  Not many  ADCs (After-Death Contacts) would be evidentially convincing to an outside observer.   But we the living would want to reassure our loved ones of our postmortem survival and progress in a compelling way.  So why, for example, was Harry Houdini unable to keep his promise to confirm his survival for his wife Bess?  Or on the other hand, why was Prof. James Hyslop able to keep his agreement with William James to confirm his postmortem suvival in a sensational way? 

 

In future posts, I willl describe James Hyslop's amazing verification in a future post and will offer the answers from OBE adepts (Out of Body Experiences) about why evidentially decisive ADCs are so infrequent.  I hope some of you will find this interesting, if a bit bizarre!  But then my handle is Berserk and I descend from a long line of pillaging Vikings, for whom Berserkers were a type of shamam warriior!  

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Berserk wrote:

My death premonitions have convinced me that people are dead who would be alive if the right people prayed regularly in the right way.  What this means in practice, though, is clouded by a rat's nest of theological problems arising from the mysteries of prayer and divine intervention.  That might be an intriguing subject for another thread.

Sorry, I have to disagree with you here.  Maybe your premonitions are more like the weather network.  A prediction of what the weather might be like is offered, so we can pay attention and modify our plans if rain is in the forecast, or not.  The weather will happen regardless of what we do, but a little fore knowledge can be quite useful.

 

I think the only thing you can ever change is yourself.  Perhaps you are a spiritual "weather man", passing information along.  

 

I think that if you believe that prayers to God can change God's mind, then that implies that you also believe that God makes these decisions in the first place.  So, therefore, you believe that you know better than God in that given situation.  

 

Personally, I just can't subscribe to any logic that says any human knows better than the Creator of the entire universe.  I think that is a much bigger theological problem than what you outline above.

 

The guilt you have self created is probably totally unnecessary.  The weather man does not take responsibility for a hurricane, and cannot prevent it from coming, but relays information about it.

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Berserk

quote:

"In future posts, I willl describe James Hyslop's amazing verification in a future post and will offer the answers from OBE adepts (Out of Body Experiences) about why evidentially decisive ADCs are so infrequent.  I hope some of you will find this interesting, if a bit bizarre!  But then my handle is Berserk and I descend from a long line of pillaging Vikings, for whom Berserkers were a type of shamam warriior!  "

 

 

Yes! Yes! Tell us more. I love it!  Some people on the WC may believe what you are writing is associated with the occult or whatever, something evil. I believe you have a gift which you are finding or did find somewhat burdensome. That's par to the course I believe.

 

your quote:

"My death premonitions have convinced me that people are dead who would be alive if the right people prayed regularly in the right way.  '

 

I don't agree and I don't believe you should carry  guilt. I agree with what Oui and JamesK   have posted above.

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I want to say hello to everyone and let Berserk know I found this website.  

So hello everyone!  Berserk, I will be back to post comments re your posts.

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I would draw this distinction: I believe that Phyllis’s unwillingness to grieve her mother’s loss hindered the latter’s postmortem progress, and, of course, I could be wrong. But the certainty of my death premonitions included the certainty that someone would die if prayer for physical safety was discontinued. For me, that was more than a fallible belief. Unforunately, I tried to rationalize that certainty away as foolish paranoia because I didn’t want to act on it. You the reader can be understandably skeptical of this claim.  I mean, for all you know, I moonlight as an ax murderer!
 

In my view, the New Testament principles of effective petitionary prayer must be thoroughly embraced and tested over many years before they can be discarded as naïve wishful thinking or a misguided embellishment of the placebo effect. These principles imply that there is a right way and a wrong way to pray; and if we fail to meet these conditions, we should anticipate the possibility that our prayer power will be severely limited. Of course, divine sovereignty allows God to intervene at will, regardless of prayer method. But I agree with G. K. Chesterton’s observation: “The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried."  

 

Many Christians bypass the biblical God and create a God compatible with their lowered expectations. The Bible teaches that we experience the God of our assumptions. If we shrink God down to a size that merely allows prayer to change us, then we will get to be right about that God concept and will be drawn to Christians who affirm us in their limited experience of divine power. But if we take Jesus’ elaborate “prayer technology” seriously, then the horizons of what is possible will be greatly expanded. In my ministry,  I have witnessed marvelous miracles as well as heart-wrenching unanswered prayers. I have, for example, recently seen prayer heal arthritis, badly torn-up eyes and knees, and severe spinal damage. I have seen prayer cause life-threatening-blood clots and blockages in heart arteries to disappear. On the other hand, I have never personally seen anyone cured of blindness from birth or the most lethal forms of diabetes. I am acutely aware of what I don’t know, but I revel in the mysteries of prayer rather than shrink in politically correct horror at evoking unrealistic expectations in those who need healings. And I have witnessed spectacular answers to prayer that don’t involve divine healing.

In any case, I celebrate the diversity of perspectives on this site.

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Berserk wrote:

 

you know, I moonlight as an ax murderer! on this site.

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(4) Ellie and Joe were a married couple .  They were academic colleagues of mine-- professors at St. Bonaventure U’s School of Education. Joe retired and died of cancer shortly thereafter and Ellie was understandably taking this hard. I was playing bridge with some Education professors. The humor was raunchy and Scotch was drunk freely. At the end of a rather irreverent evening, the Education Dean (Paul) lamented Ellie’s tragic loss. To this, I found myself responding in an unpremeditated way that shocked me: “Ellie has been contacted by Joe, and she is wondering if the encounter was genuine. Tell her I can assure her tthat it was.”   These professors were very secular, but fortunately for me, they were friends. When left-brain dominance resumed control, I admit I felt a tad embarrassed by my announcement when I once again became left-brain dominant. 
 

Ellie responded to Paul by sharing her ADC for the first time.. Her son was driving her and other family members home from Bradford, PA. Someone said something funny and, for the first time since the funeral, they all laughed. In the midst of their mirth, Ellie (sitting in the back seat) suddenly had a waking vision of Joe from the waist up, laughing his head off. Telepathically, Joe communicated: “That’s how I like to see you all. Don’t worry about me. I’m enjoying my transition to the other side.” I felt privileged to play a role in making this vision more meaningful.

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Berserk

The Ellie and Joe story is nice.

 

On a boat cruise once a lady was telling us she was at the gravesite  of a family member who had passed. For a fleeting second she was given a vision  of him appearing as somewhat of an angel on the tombstone. She was very perplexed because she didn't believe in anything like this. I don't think she believed in much of anything in a spiritual sense. There is lots of mystery round and about us.

 

Have you always had the gift of being psychic and having premonitions? Some say they have had it since childhood. I should think its quite a responsibility.

 

Axe murderer......!!!!.....yikes! I want to tell people not to be afraid. You make a really clean cut. You're kosher .

 

 

 

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"I believe that Phyllis’s unwillingness to grieve her mother’s loss hindered the latter’s postmortem progress..."

 

It may be as some mystics claim that our grief can impede the progress of someone on the other side, but I think this may be a misinterpretation by the mystics making this claim. I have to wonder if the events Phyllis experienced during her NDEs were put forth by her mother and others to encourage her in her growth by allowing herself to go through the grieving process rather than for her mother's sake to continue to progress? It seems to me that we are continually evolving beings that have no other choice except to move forward toward experiences that challenge and change our consciousness. Life here or on the other side does not appear to remain stagnant, at least not for very long and therefore progress either for the better or for the worse cannot be impeded. Better or worse, of course, is dependent upon the choices we make. 

   

"My death premonitions have convinced me that people are dead who would be alive if the right people prayed regularly in the right way.  What this means in practice, though, is clouded by a rat's nest of theological problems arising from the mysteries of prayer and divine intervention.  That might be an intriguing subject for another thread."

 

 

 

 

I agree, an interesting subject. I don't think you should be convinced of this, however.  Certainly prayer and intervention works miracles that we see and experience every day, but sometimes the miracle and/or healing is the moving on from this life to the next. I think we need to remember that we are not the physical consciousness that we think we are.  We are only a speck of the pre-existing consciousness that we were and are continually a part of before we came to know a physical/earthly consciousness.

 

It is also intent that moves consciousness and focused prayer could certainly equate with focused intent.  While I don't believe there is a right/wrong way of praying unless you're speaking of the effectiveness/intent of our prayers.  I do think great power lies with the strength of our intent on a being level. And the only true measure of the strength of our intent on this level is love without fear, ego, etc.  Jesus is our example.  What we are all learning, striving for is to change our being by relinquishing fear because then God's love flows freely within and outward from the core of our being.  With power comes great responsibility so the purer our love (agape) the more powerful our intent becomes, the more effective our prayers/intent becomes and the greater affect we accomplish.  Now I think I'm saying/meaning the same thing you're saying, just using different words, but the key point is the strength/power of prayer is dependent upon our personal growth towards agape love, which is a slow evolutionary process.

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Lights, thanks for your thoughtful reply. It is so rich it doesn’t lend itself to a hasty response. I need to reread it carefully before replying. 

 
Stardust, in answer to your question, let me briefly describe the experience that seems to have triggered my psychic abilities or spiritual gifts.  They first manifested at age 16 shortly after the most spiritually profound mystical experience of my life at a church camp meeting. At the time, I was a thoroughly disillusioned agnostic. What made the experience so compelling was that it came so unexpectedly and apparently against my will. I was kneeling along at an altar, when I was first enveloped by what seemed like a warm breeze followed by wave after wave of pure unconditional love that gradually intensified until I thought I’d die.  It felt like my little mind was about to be absorbed in omnipotent divine mind and that I would cease to exist!   It was a hundred times more potent an experience of love than I have ever experienced and it burns with awe in my memory. Years later, I discovered mystics who expressed their own peak experiences in similar language.  With that experience came this divine message that unfolded afterwards like a roll of suppressed thought: “Don, you are a young man who craves answers to life’s baffling questions. But the answers you seek might cause you to detach your cerebral faith form true spirituality and growth. What you need to do is live your questions until they lead you to the center of my heart.”  Needless to say, this was heady stuff for a 16-year-old to absorb.
 
That experience launched a long pilgrimage that led me from the U. of Winnipeg to Princeton Seminary, to a Harvard doctoral program in New Testament, Christian Origins, and Intertestamental Judaism. The experience also triggered whatever psychic abilities or spiritual gifts I have.
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Lights

A really warm welcome to the WonderCafe.   Best post ever  .

 

your quote : ( sorry,  my quote button doesn't work)

 

" Life here or on the other side does not appear to remain stagnant, at least not for very long and therefore progress either for the better or for the worse cannot be impeded. Better or worse, of course, is dependent upon the choices we make."

 

Are you alluding to reincarnation here?  I like to believe its true.

 

your quote:

 

We are only a speck of the pre-existing consciousness that we were and are continually a part of before we came to know a physical/earthly consciousness."

 

Wow...this is cool! Can you write more? We came to earth for a reason? Karma?

 

your quote:

 

"The strength/power of prayer is dependent upon our personal growth towards agape love, which is a slow evolutionary process."

 

Do you believe we have to live many lifetimes before we become perfected in love?

 

P.S. Sorry I don't have a lot to write of my own. I feed off other people's energy . I hope you'll spend lots of time here with us.

 

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Berserk

Thanks so much.

 

Have you been a minister or spiritual adviser by profession?  You mention being in a Methodist congregation at the present time. Do the people there accept and believe in your psychic abilities? I know little about the Methodist church.

 

Are you open to other religions or spiritual beliefs other than Christian or Judiasm?

 

your quote:

"My death premonitions have convinced me that people are dead who would be alive if the right people prayed regularly in the right way.  What this means in practice, though, is clouded by a rat's nest of theological problems arising from the mysteries of prayer and divine intervention.  That might be an intriguing subject for another thread."

 

Please...you may discuss it on this thread. We have lots of room and lots of time. Also feel free to relate more of your experiences or those of others. You may not receive a lot of responses but the WC is wide open to all people. Many read on here who don't join up or post. I feel its a wonderful place of learning. We have a certain degree of  topics repetition so yours is a refreshing change for me.

 

Re the quote above:

 

This is something I've never heard before. Very interesting. Are you implying that we, the people, have the power to change God's mind?  But then.....I don't believe God chooses when people will die or how. There could be exceptions. I find it odd sometimes that those who have a strong belief in Jesus and heaven still see death as an enemy. God is love. Jesus is love. Go then...go to Jesus!  They appear to have an element of doubt or what is it? I know the life force is very strong. Do you think re your premonitions that God is using you as a messenger or like an angel?  Sorry if my questions are a bit scrambled and I don't mean to offend you in any way. I'm more curious than anything else.

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Stardust,

Yes, my churches have been a mind-boggling source of amazing miraculous experiences and what I record here I have shared with them.  United Methodist churches are theologically very diverse--like the United Church of Canada.  But the denomination is the most liberal of various Methodist denominations (Free Methodists, Wesleyan Methodists, etc.).  I will respond in detail to your questions when I have time.  In a week, I'm leaving for a 9-day tour of Israel.  By the way, thanks for expressing your appreciation for Lights first post.  I encountered her on another site and invited her here to post on my thread.

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Hi Stardust,

Thank you for the nice welcome and your compliment is very kind.

Reincarnation is another interesting subject, but that hadn't crossed my mind when I wrote this, more the pre-existence of the soul is what I was thinking of.  I don't have time to write my thoughts and reasoning regarding reincarnation at the moment, but I do believe there is some truth to this, but not necessarily what we hear of in eastern and/or new age thought.  I will be back to share more of my thoughts regarding your questions.

Again, thank you for the warm welcome!

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Hi Lights:

 

I would like to join stardust in extending my welcome and complimenting you on your posts.

 

I certainly agree with you on strength of intent. It rings true from my own experience.

 

Intent makes the world go round.

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Lights wrote:
It seems to me that we are continually evolving beings that have no other choice except to move forward toward experiences that challenge and change our consciousness. Life here or on the other side does not appear to remain stagnant, at least not for very long and therefore progress either for the better or for the worse cannot be impeded. Better or worse, of course, is dependent upon the choices we make. 

 

Great thoughts Lights. Welcome to a forum as diverse as life itself.

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Saul_now_Paul wrote:

Berserk wrote:

 

you know, I moonlight as an ax murderer! on this site.

 

How many axes have you murdered so far?

 

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Arminius

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Only the ones he grinds.

 

He's not a very good axe grinder; he grinds the cutting edges round.

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In the world beyond us (myth is so close to some and yet they do not see the depth of it) there is so much that we are related to yet we do not believe in the soul/mind/psyche exists for the average person. Just review a few strings ... God (emotion) does not exist for many and the mechanics of thought does not exist for many ... consider the ministers that say intellect and philosophy are evil and oppress them. If we cultivated the unused portion of the brain ... would we serve creation much better?

 

Anyone who deals with the near dead or dying can relate to alien experiences ... even though they may suppress these experiences due to fear of being ridiculed. This takes me back to I Corinthians 14 again (it should be read over and over and pondered between each reading as to what is being said). If mankind (m'n in the old Hebrew non-sectual context) got over this "fear" of the spirit world would meme-anon IX (or ICs, IHS, etc) a form of light story for remembering such stuff in altered form. We all carry this in our gynes, or Jinns as ancient peoples would call the fixed portion of our potential. Then there is the environmnet ... the freed mind that operates in complete resonance with all the enclosed ... except the reason of the isolated that thinks heis all there is to IT (tuit being a well-rounded mind in alien experiences). Such is beyond reason to those that believe not in emotions or intellect or feel that such constructs are evil ... although made by God, omi, everything in tandem ... omi-nous eh? Then the nous is an old extante about thinking (harvester) ... a bare thought or naked min-dae? Small light that can burn through the haze of emotions you "c" ...

 

Id's a gravid point no volume lots of Maas ...

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(5) A member of my church L lost her sister.  One night she was awakened by the touch of a gentle caress to her cheek.  After being startled awake, L saw her sister's spirit glowing brightly in the dark.  They had a long conversation about their family and the sister's current glorious state.  L did not share the details of this conversation.  This is a rather standard ADC.

 

(6) I grew up with Gordon who is a chaplain and assistant pastor in a Kelowna Church.  .Gord told me about Annie, an elderly lady he visited in a nursing home.  He noticed a bottle of lilac cologne on her bedstand and asked her if she'd like an application.  She eagerly agreed; so Gord called a female attendant to apply the cologne.  Annie brightened sweetly smiled and then lay back and slipped away.  What a lovely way to go! 

 

Many miles away, Annie's daughter and her husband were working in their barn.  Suddenly, the daughter perked up and said, "Do you smell lilacs?"  Her husband nodded his yes, but added that he didn't want to admit it because it seemed insane amid the foul barn odors of animal excrement.  Gord notified her of her mother's passing and she rushed to the nursing home.  She was awestruck when she saw the bottle of lilac cologne and Gord shared his account of  the beautiful moment of her Mom's passing.  Signature odors are a standard means by which a  deceased loved one's presence is manifested.  No one knew how the cologne bottle got there.

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quote:

"Signature odors are a standard means by which a  deceased loved one's presence is manifested.'

 

Yes, I've heard of this before. I believe it.

 

I had an elderly  aunt who had been depressed for many years. She and I had not spoken much for some time. I had a dream one night  in which she was flying high really really happy.  She and I were laughing because she was so gloriously free and happy. The next p.m. the phone rang  to tell me she had passed away. Somehow I believe she came to me no matter how silly it sounds. I hadn't even been thinking about her or in contact with her.

 

 

Have a nice trip to Israel. My daughter married a Jewish man. They are now divorced. My grandson had his bar mitzvah at the wailing wall two years ago. I have sent prayers via Aish.com to be placed in the wailing wall for his grandpa who is in a wheelchair. His grandpa was totally  paralayized -sp- in an accident in Morocco  as a young man. He was healed in Israel and was an accountant  in Canada until he became ill again in his 60's. He goes to Israel often still hoping a miracle can happen again.

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(7) THE MOST IMPRESSIVE ADC I HAVE EVER ENCOUNTERED: 

 

This ADC happened in a rural area about 45 miles south of Rochester, NY when I was the pastor of a 2-church charge.  Leonard, a retired wealthy contractor, was a member of my Allens Hill United Methodist Church.  We were very close, and I often had dinner with him and his wife Helen.  One Sunday Leonard expressed great concern over his unchurched cousin across the road who was dying of cancer.   This very depressed cousin refused all visitors and Leonard wondered if might try to force a visit so the man would not die totally alone. This request put me in a difficult position and I wanted to discuss it further with Leonard in person.

 

On my drive to his place,  I  was struck by an odd fact:  Leonard's son Jeff, Jeff's wife Karen, and their 2 children had all been killed in a small plane crash; yet Leonard had never seemed to grieve over this loss.  But Leonard was very emotionally engaged  with the illnesses of other family members .  I was curious about this apparent inconsistency.  When I arrived at his house, Helen told me that he went in town (Honeoye) to buy supplies.  I casually asked Helen why he seemed so at peace with the tragic plane crash.  She replied, "Well, Leonard had a very convincing contact with Jeff after the funeral.  But he doesn't like to talk about it."   My curiosity got the better of my discretion.  So at an opportune time, I asked him if he'd be willing to share this experience.  This is the amazing account he gave me.

 

After the funeral, Leonard was about to drive his son's pick-up to do some errands in town.  As he approached the end of his driveway, he was startled by the figure of a man rising from the highway diitch and approaching him.  It was his late son Jeff!  Jeff approached the truck and asked, "Dad, do you mind if I drive my truch for old time's sake?"  In shock, L moved aside.  Jeff drove down County Road 37 towards Rochester.  He outlined his total financial situation (investments, etc.).  This saved L a lot of time in settling Jeff's estate.  Jeff assured L that the the whole family was together and that they were in good hands during their afterlife transition.  Then Jeff turned right on to a less travelled highway.  After a couple of miles, he stopped the truck and lamented, "I'm sorry, Dad, but I'm not permitted to go any further."  Jeff got out out of the truck, walked towards a clump of trees, and dematerialized.  L drove home, too much in shock to heal from his grief.  The experience seemed too good to be true.

The next day, L was overwhelmed with grief, so much so that he felt compelled to go for a walk in the woods behind his house.  At some point he was overwhelmed with tears and sat down on a log.  Suddenly, L heard a branch crack and saw a woman approaching him.  It was Jeff's deceased wife Karen.  With great pathos, she scolded L: "What are you doing out here in the woods?  Didn't we tell you that we are all OK and all together?  You get back in the house with Mom and comfort her!"  L said that this second incident broke the back of his grief and gave him deep peace about the passing of his son's family. 

L  looked up at me with a pained expression on his face.  He saw the skepticism written all over my face.   I felt ashamed because it was I  who prodded L into sharing this experience.  I knew L as a man of absolute integrity.  I explained to him that I was just having trouble processing a story that differed so radically from any of my life experiences.   I marvelled at Jeff's parting comment. "I'm sorry, Dad, I'm not permitted to go any further."  Who was monitoring or supervising this extraordinary ADC?  Jesus?  An angel?  An unknown discarnate human?  It took time for my awareness of L's integrity to sink in and make me realize that he was telling the truth.  The sheer "physicality" of this ADC seems erminscent of Jesus' resurrection appearances.

L passed away a few years ago.  He had not shared this ADC with his daughters.  But at least my confromtation seemed to prompt him to share this awesome experience with them as well.  One of his daughters shared the ADC at L''s funeral.

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Thanks for sharing this beautiful story. We don't hear a great deal about ADC's. We hear more about NDE's. It is truly a mystery how some people are able to manifest after death.

 

Some people believe in those they call Ascended Masters with Jesus among them. We would classify them probably as great mystics or saints who have passed on after  many incarnations. They are able to manifest or appear at will in order to be of help or for a certain purpose. I've no idea about the truth of it but I do believe its possible. We are human, not divine. We do not have all knowledge.

 

I know there are many stories about somebody in trouble being helped by a total stranger who is usually a man. When they turn around to thank the stranger he has totally disappeared. Some people have even gone to great lengths to track down the person without success. In these cases the person who appears very ordinary  is believed to be an angel.

 

I believe Leonard, Jeff and his wife Karen must have been highly spiritual. I'm inclined to think Jeff and Karen were guided by an angel. I can understand Leonard's reluctance to relate his experience. Its hardly an everyday occurence although I do believe it happens more often than we think or hear about. Its so touching that Leonard's intuition told him it was safe to trust you. He knew he would not be ridiculed.

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I can only relate one story about an elderly relative who I believe had an NDE or a series of them while critically ill in hospital for some weeks. His family had been called to his death bed a few times. He did recover and go on to live another five years at home. He would never discuss his experiences with anyone except to say he no longer knew what was real and what wasn't real in life.

 

I had been visiting him regularly in hospital. It was about  2-3 weeks before he regained consciousness. After that due to a large oxygen tube down his throat he was unable to speak. He was given a notepad and pencil. He was a regular church member  who had many friends plus he had  worked with the public all his life as well as having  living family members.

 

I was there when he began to write. He wrote me : " Why doesn't John come to see me?" John was a brother who had passed away some 30 years previous. He was absolutely horror stricken when I told him. You could see the pain in his face. Next time I visited he wrote: " How is Annie?". Annie was a sister who had also passed away some years ago. "How is Nan ( a nickname)?" Nan was another sister no longer on earth.  I forget now exactly but all the people he asked questions about had been gone for some years. It was so strange because he didn't ask me about my family or ask about any of the living. It actually seemed as if he had spent time with his dead relatives. How was that possible? I've no idea.

 

At home later he told me that while he was critically ill he visited his small home village where he grew up. He knew all of the people. Each neighbor in turn took him in and cared for him. He wasn't at all given to the supernatural, out of the body experiences or anything along that line. Of course he wouldn't relate any of the details. He didn't want to talk about it so that was all he said.

 

We might say he suffered severe regression. Whatever it was I found it very strange given that he knew so many people among the living. He seemed to have forgotten about the living. When he was  getting better and able to talk in hospital he was very quiet having little to say. I might add that he was in the 70's but prior to having been admitted to hospital where he had 5  surgeries  his mind and his mental health was fine. The surgeon said it was a miracle that he lived. He had many people praying for him.

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About people talking about OBI or NDE's ...

A lady od some aquaintance told me that she seldom talks about her experiences because people would think she was crazy. That is only one incident that takes me back to I Corinthians 14 again ... read it in depth over and over again ...

 There are always tues IÐ's ...

WB

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I recently went through the death of my mother-in-law. At the very end, she was going on about her father.

 

Her body was shutting down, her brain was shutting down and she was rambling.

 

I think that NDE are nothing more than that.

 

There may or may not be a white  light, and people who speak to you, maybe even the "big guy" himself, but I don't believe any of it is proof of anything beyond.

 

IT

 

 

Russ

 

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Russ P,

Let me take your post as an excuse to express my take on the strengths and weaknesses of this site's discussion board.  From my perspective as a newbie, its chief weakness is its predictable tired  fixation on politically correct issues like homosexuality and the sex life of hypocritical conservative ministers.  Its strength is its engaging discussions about science and religion and philosophical theology and its attraction of a stimulating mixture of believers and skeptics.  

 

Your verdict "unproven" is meaningless because, as the discussion of Descartes has shown,  we can't even "prove" our existence as thinkers.  So we need to get real and focus on a more modest quest for what is psychologically persuasive.  The result of that quest will of course be relative to our life experience, needs, and openness to mystery.  Above all, it will depend on how much sympathy we have for the patristic principle (St. Augustine, St. Anselm, etc.) that we do not understand in order to believe; rather, we believe in order to understand.  In other words, it never works to be a disengaged bystander; we must play with ideas until we determine whether they satisfy two tests: (1) they provide a richer sense of meaning that makes our life more satisfying; (2) they lead to verfications which, though far from proof, allow belief to sneak up on us and transform our quest into deep convictions.  A thinking person cannot simply "choose" his beliefs.  You'll note that I have carefully chosen my examples so that most of them have some form of verfication, that is, some form of synchronicity that cannot be explained as mere chance.  On the other hand, posters here know neither me nor my sources, and one must always consider the source for any extraordinary claims. 

 

So thanks for playing and please check out my growing array of examples accompanied by some form of what many construe as verifications.  Soon I will exhaust my own repertoire of NDEs and ADCs and will document far more compelling examples experienced by people I have never met.  In my experience, this approach has changed skeptics' perspectives on what might be possible, even if they remain skeptical about the ultimate meaning of my examples.  So let's see if my examples have that accumulative effect on  you.  Please stay tuned. 

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RussP

 Quote from an article:  Who are you?

 

Each day about 50 billion cells in the body are replaced, resulting in a new body each year. The body is just temporary.  It can't be who you are.  Every second, 500,000 of your body cells die and are replaced, so we'll have to keep this conversation short—much of you will be gone before we finish!

 

Who am I talking to when I speak to you?  It's certainly not your brain.  That's just a collection of fat and protein made of 85% water squeezed into the dark enclosure of your skull.  Around 50,000 to 100,000 brain cells die each day, so if some of them had today's messages, no wonder you keep losing track of what your spouse tells you.

 

 your quote:

 

"There may or may not be a white  light, and people who speak to you, maybe even the "big guy" himself, but I don't believe any of it is proof of anything beyond."

 

I sure can't provide proof of anything either. I've been reading some interesting articles on whether the mind possibly exists outside the brain. Here is one such article I find rather interesting:

 

Quote:

 

 

Pim van Lommel is a cardiologist and author of an article in the medical journal, The Lancet (December 2001).  His conclusions were summarized by Tim Touber:

Van Lommel contends that the brain does not produce consciousness or store memories. He points out that American computer science expert Simon Berkovich and Dutch brain researcher Herms Romijn, working independently of one another, came to the same conclusion: that it is impossible for the brain to store everything you think and experience in your life. This would require a processing speed of 1024 bits per second. Simply watching an hour of television would already be too much for our brains. "If you want to store that amount of information—along with the associative thoughts produced—your brain would be pretty much full," Van Lommel says. "Anatomically and functionally, it is simply impossible for the brain to have this level of speed."16

 

While small segments or individual scenes of memories can be re-experienced when the brain is stimulated,17,18 where those memories are stored is not known, and it seems apparent that the brain doesn't have the capacity to hold them.  The stimulation brings segments of memories and scenes to mind, but their source is a mystery to neuroscientists.

 

Not only does the brain not have the capacity to hold the memories, but many brain cells die and are replaced every second of our lives.  For the memories to remain over 50 or 60 years, the brain cells would have to remain the same ones that were there when the memories were created, but that doesn’t happen since they’re replaced by new brain cells  regularly.  Dean Radin, Senior Scientist at the Institute of Noetic Sciences, professor at Sonoma State University, and Distinguished Consulting Faculty member at Saybrook Graduate School and Research Center, explains this further indication that memories couldn’t remain stored in the brain:

 

Consider a profound mystery in biology that is not accounted for by classical assumptions: The average neuron consists of about 80 percent water and about 100,000 molecules.  The brain contains about 10 billion cells, hence about 1015 molecules.  Each nerve cell in the brain receives an average of 10,000 connections from other brain cells, and the molecules within each cell are renewed about 10,000 times in a lifetime.  We lose about 1,000 cells a day, so the total brain cell population is decimated by about 10 million cells, losing in the process some 100 billion cross-linkages. 19

 

Some sources today estimate that from 50,00020 to 100,00021 brain cells die each day.  In spite of the loss of brain cells and the fact that the molecules within each brain cell are renewed about 10,000 times in a lifetime, memories from our childhood of many places we’ve visited can be recalled in great detail.  People in old age report flashbacks of memories having remarkable clarity that they haven’t recalled for decades. 

 

Dean Radin quotes Paul A. Weiss, of Vienna’s Institute of Experimental Biology, a pioneer in biology research, about the fact that memories remain intact in spite of the loss of brain cells and replacement of molecules in brain cells:

 

And yet, despite that ceaseless change of detail in that vast population of elements, our basic patterns of behavior, our memories, our sense of integral existence as an individual, have retained their unitary continuity of pattern.22

 

That fact is another indication that memories aren’t stored in brain cells.

 

http://www.ebook.youreternalself.com/chapter1textlink.htm

 

 

The brain, in other words, is like a television.  The signal coming into it aligns its components to create images of the Simpsons on the screen, just as a memory is recreated in the mind.  But the television doesn’t create the image of Bart Simpson; Bart’s image and zany actions aren’t stored in the television.  The television is just the instrument that allows Bart to be experienced again as he was when his image was first created, outside of the television set.

 

When the television set is damaged, perhaps by having a short circuit burn out a part, the television will not function properly.  We could turn on Larry King but we might not be able to hear sound, or the picture may be distorted or fuzzy. However, that doesn’t mean Larry King has been struck dumb or has become fuzzy.  The signal, just like a person’s mind, is perfectly fine when the television or the brain is damaged; they just don’t function well enough to receive and process the signals correctly.

 

 

 

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So in other words, at the moment of "death", with the body "damaged" and about to shut down, anything the brain/mind may sense, the white light etc., may well be incorrectly interpreted, due to the damage.

 

What about what the mind decodes is in error because the brain is damaged?

 

How do we "know" the white light, etc. is true, and not just the product of the damaged mind?

 

To be serious, I would love to believe there is something on the other side but so far I have seen or heard nothing of a verifiable nature.  Repeat the experiment and get the same result.  Verified.  But... who wants to die twice.  Not I. 

 

IT

 

 

Russ.

 

 

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(1) they provide a richer sense of meaning that makes our life more satisfying;

 

I like the movie "the Last Unicorn" because it made me feel good.  so (1) is satisfied, my life is "more satisfying"

 

(2) they lead to verfications which, though far from proof, allow belief to sneak up on us and transform our quest into deep convictions.

 

So enough wine and I can confirm the existence of pink elephants.

 

Belief in..... So if I believe in unicorns hard enough, they become real?

 

I believe there is no God.

 

There is a sea of energy, transformative, perhaps intelligent, tending toward complexity and life.

 

Jesus may, or may not, have existed.

 

A product of a church providing  a prophet to fit the story.

 

The universe has been in existence forever, springing from, perhaps, nothing.

 

We are God.  We are in God.  We are part of God.  God is in us.

 

And so near death, not verifiable.

 

IT

 

 

Russ

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(8) YOLANDA'S NDE: I am drawing this NDE account from Brennan Manning's new book, "The Furious Longing of God."  Brennan is one of the most prominent Christian retreat leaders in the USA.  He shares his encounter with Yolanda (then age 37), a Mexican American woman who was confined the only leper colony for Hansen's Disease in the US at Carville, Lousiana. 

 

“As I was coming up the front steps, a nurse came running towards me:`Brennan, can you come quick and pray with Yolanda?  She’s dying, Brennan.’  5 years ago, before Yolanda was struck with leprosy, she was a drop-dead gorgeous woman.  Now her nose was pressed into her face and her mouth was severely contorted.  She just had 2 little stumps where her fingers had once been!  2 years earlier, her husband had divorced her because of the social stigma attached to leprosy.  He had forbidden her 2 boys to ever visit their mother.  So Yolanda was dying, an abandoned, forsaken woman." 

 

Brennan says: “I anointed Yolanda with oil and prayed with her.  It had been raining when I came in; but as I turned around to put the top back on the bottle, the room filled with brilliant sunlight…As I turned to look back at Yolanda—and if I live to be 300, I’ll never be able to find the words to describe what I saw—her face was like a sunburst over the mountains, like 1,000 sunbeams streaming over her face, literally so brilliant I had to shield my eyes.  I exclaimed: 'Yolanda, you appear to be very happy.'`Yes, Jesus' Father just told me He would take me home today.'  I asked her just what the Heavenly Father said.  She replied: 

 

`COME NOW, MY LOVE.  MY LOVELY ONE, COME.  FOR YOU, THE WINTER IS PAST, THE SNOWS ARE OVER AND GONE, FLOWERS ARE SPRINGING UP.  THE SEASON OF GLAD SONGS HAS COME: THE COOING OF TURTLEDOVES IS HEARD IN OUR LAND…COME NOW, MY LOVE, MY YOLANDA, COME LET ME SEE YOUR FACE.  LET ME HEAR YOUR VOICE. FOR YOUR VOICE IS SWEET AND YOUR FACE IS BEAUTIFUL.'"

 

God was quoting almost verbatim Song of Songs 2:10-14.  But God inserted Yolanda's name into the quotation.  She was illiterate and had never read the Bible or any other book for that matter.  Nor had Brennan ever quoted this passage to her during prior visits.  “6 hours later, her little leprous body was swept up into the furious love of her heavenly Dad."

 

The Song of Songs was originally composed as erotic poetry, some of the earliest in human history.  It was included in the biblical canon because it was viewed as an allegory of God's love for His people.  In this sense, it fits neatly with all the biblical texts that portray God and Jesus as romantic suitors who approach and seduce us as mystical lovers when we are open and receptive to such a divine romance.
 

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"She was illiterate and had never read the Bible or any other book for that matter."

 

And do we know she had never heard the passage before?

 

"almost verbatim"

 

Thought not.

 

Occam's Razor, the simplest explanation is usually the correct one.  Heard before, recited.

 

IT

 

 

Russ

IT

 

 

Russ

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Russ,

No, Brennan Manning admits he can't guarantee that Yolanda had never heard  this poetry, though it seems unlikely for the reasons given.  The more remarkable fact is that her face shone so brightly on a rainy day that Brennan had to shield his eyes to look at her.  Have you surveyed the verifications for (1)-(7) above?  How, for example, can you explain 2 brothers dying at the same time, 10 miles apart with witnesses verifying the time and content of the perfect match of what they said to each other?  How can you explain a dead truck driver?  Of course, you can claim that any incident that clashes with your preconceptions of what is possible must be a lie or self-delusion.  If you resort to that desperate expedient  than I've got you. The more impressive ADCs I will outline in future posts will reel you in and make you a believer.  Just you wait!

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I'm going to Israel and will be absent from this site for the next 3 weeks or so.  So I thought I'd offer an even 10 NDEs and ADCs.  These next 2 ADCs were compelling for all those involved and were instruments of healing for the grieving parents. 

 

(9) Seb was a very spiritual, severely handicapped boy, the adopted son of Lloyd and Mary Ann.  About two years ago, this couple was kayaking on a nearby river when I got word that Seb had suddenly died in his babysitting grandma's arms.  It  took hours to track the parents down and notify them of this devastating news.  A couple of days later at the funeral home, the parents were sobbing uncontrolably by the coffin and one of their friends pleaded with me to go up and comfort them.  I annoyed her greatly by saying, "I think they need their privacy right now to start venting their grief." I didn't want to force them to interrupt their weeping to deal with my pastoral words and I wanted God to give me the right words instead of pious cliches.  When I finally felt prompted to approach them, I told them that someone at the memorial service in the funeral would receive a paranormal verification of Seb's survival, but it wouldn't be them.  I had to leave for my vacation to Los Vegas, but they asked me to perform my own church memorial service when I returned.  My return was greeted by incredible news: a man at the first memorial service in the funeral home had stepped outside and had seen the name "Seb" emblazoned in the clouds in Seb's characteristic printing.  There was no mistaking the clarity of the letters.  When Lloyd and Mary Ann were told of this, they came out and almost fainted at what they saw.  A photo was put on display at my memorial service. 

 

(10) As part of their grief process, Lloyd and Mary Ann attended a national conference in Portland, OR for parents of prematurely dead children. There they met a man whose son had recently died of an illness at a young age.   At the gravesite, a mysterious black cat sat politely by the grave and watched the service.  No one had brought the cat; so it must have been a curious neighborhood cat--or so everyone thought.  The Dad took this as an omen that his son was OK because, just prior to his death, the boy had been pestering him repeatedly to buy him a cat.  So the Dad photographed it for a keepsake.  All the visitors then left, but the cat lingered behind.  When the photo was developed, the Dad was in for a shock.  The cat in the photo was transparent and the gravesite could be seen through the cat!   The cat was an etheric apparition--a visitor from another world and perhaps a signal of the boy's survival.  Needless, to say, Lloyd and Mary Ann were deeply moved by this confirmation.
 

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Stardust,

Thank you for the excellent presentation on neurology and what leads necessarily into "Field Theory" what some might call pastoral inclinations that we receive as we pass through unseen fields. Such things include irrational numbers in their calculations ... what others might call emotional sides of the mind-brae'n complex that man kind generally hates to suppose as existing ... so we get simpleX and delusional behaviour from emotional disturbances in the field ... String Theory all over again?

 

So the Occum solution (whetted) is just to call everthing GOD ... Omi ... and then people exclude everything else outside of self as nothing ... defining the Hebrew term for mahaineim ... as root word for m'n ... L'UV in a condensed, isolated form as befell eM ...  that he must learn to get over as a hard spot. Thus the expression Love/God placed a hard dot/spot/stone in the forehead of a beauty of creation ... who didn't wish to know anything much about the rest of hymn's elphe ... God does like a NeuS ong eh! At least it is what is said in a vast spectrum of Word ... and the word is God and the corollary must hold true ... so we must know a lot of words gathereed together ... to gain any alien understanding ... foreign IC As-ion ... folk from the east with the Eris'n son ... man is frightened to death of God in all forms!

 

What could be next in this quantum field of stages like an Oenoen/Œnœn mate to Par's ... is it not? Then one would have to know the myths that contributed to the complex path of the soul in thin Kyne! One skinny çow eh ... a paegein stretch of imaginary field ... just intuit'd in some?

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RussP

 I know there are a trillion questions!  I don't have answers. I suppose its one of those things in that  some people are interested to learn and know more and more while others aren't at all interested. I've always been interested .

Science and spirituality need to come together : 

http://www.youreternalself.com/skeptico.htm

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Agreed.

 

I would love to see those pictures referred to in the posts.

 

IT

 

 

Russ

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quote:

"I would love to see those pictures referred to in the posts."

 

There is a problem with many of the stories told along these lines. Unfortunately there is often a great deal of superstition. People will see what they wish to see. Many people see  "orbs" or tiny round balls of light in their family pictures. They believe these are the spirits of their dead relatives coming to visit.  There may be such a thing as a spirit orb but very often the orbs people see are caused by tiny flecks of dust on the digital camera lens.

 

 

Sorry Berserk but I'll have to say  I believe the writing  that appeared in the sky wasn't written by the finger of God. It appeared that way whatever it was. A lady told me she had a problem, feeling depressed etc. She looked out of the window and saw a cross in the sky. I see crosses in the sky every day. Its the jet stream from two airplanes crossing or some such. There's a photo of the name of Allah written in the sky in Alaska. Allah's name in  Arabic is composed of sguiqqles - sp- which appear in many places. I wouldn't recognize it  but the photo is touched up so that its very plain.

 

This isn't to say that all experiences of a supernatural nature are bogus but some are just a little too far out so that I hesitate to believe them. Cats....!!!...that's funny .....!!!...they are weird mysterious creatures. Lots of people say they get fleeting glimpses of their cats after death or they feel the cat on the bed. Who knows? Never trust a cat .

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Alice

 

The cat.  Very wise.

 

Why is it that when we get down to the "show me" stage, they all pack up and leave.

 

IT

 

 

Russ

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Berserk

I like the story of Yolanda and I like Brennan Manning. I read his works on the net.

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Check out this website. Allah's name appears everywhere. Alaska photo but now  they say its  in Whistler, B.C.

 

 

 

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Berserk

The story about Seb's name appearing in the sky certainly gave a lot of comfort to the parents and family. It isn't in any way harmful. It reminded me of my own  story from the 70's which I had forgotten when I posted earlier. It may be why I've always had an interest in hearing the stories of others.

 

Let me say first of all I've never been what might be considered holy. I've never sought supernatural experiences.  I grew up in the Presby. church in the 40's which was pretty stiff and staid. We didn't run around the country roads praising Jesus and shouting Hallelujahs. We would have been taken to the nearest county asylum. Nobody got a hug at church!  It was a cold quick handshake. I am also very aware that the mental institutions are packed with people believing they are Jesus. I'd prefer not to go there!

 

Whatever.....it wasn't anything drastic but I was going through a rough patch in the mid 70's. One day  I was sitting at my dining table (in my apt.) which faced a window with a screen. I looked up and on the window screen I saw  the face of Jesus. I'm sorry to say it wasn't a consolation. I was afraid. It stayed there for some days until I washed it away. I never told anyone about it, not even my family. The face was the traditional face picture we see often. Lo and behold some days later Jesus face again appeared inside my china cabinet.  It would have been caused by the reflection of light  on the cabinet  glass  from a ceiling fan light as well as ornaments contained in the cabinet.  Again I wasn't overly scared but I was feeling a little disturbed. I wasn't quite prepared to meet Jesus so  up close and personal . I left it for a few days. I  never told anyone. I rearranged the inside of the cabinet and it was gone.

 

I don't know how common these stories were back in the 70's. I know there have been many among the Catholics in recent years up to the present time. People come from miles around to see the face of Jesus  wherever it may appear. I don't believe I've had any  very strange experiences since. After all I wasn't the most welcoming. There was no room in the inn .

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Berserk

I know you aren't here but you can read when you return. Are you familiar with James Padgett? I have read most of his writings.

 

Quote:

Introduction:
 
 
 
 
What happens after death? (Dr. Leslie Stone who published Padgett)
 
 
 
 
The Padgett Messages 1914- 1920
 
 
 

"My truths are plain and my teachings can be understood by the simple. Any religion which requires the exercise of the mental faculties to an extent greater than what is required in the ordinary affairs of life, cannot be a true religion; because God has designed that all his children shall understand His truths without the necessity of having a highly developed mind."

Jesus of Nazareth.

 

 P.S. Sorry I can't center or delete this poem from the website, html problems.
 
 

Someone to Hold You

By Ruth Duvall
 

 

 

When you need someone to hold you, when your world is crashing in,

And you're quiet and you listen for that small voice from within.

And the world may seem to hate you, though you try your very best,

Be thankful and be patient and know that you are blessed.

He'll be the One to love you inspite of all your sins.

He'll send someone to feed you when your pantry's looking thin.

He'll open heavens windows when the lights are growing dim.

He'll wrap his arms around you, if you'll only let him in.

He'll touch your heart and heal you and fill you from within.

He'll send angels to befriend you, and help you settle in.

He'll provide for you and keep you, on Him you can depend.

So if you have someone to hold you, when your world is crashing in,

Remember to be thankful, when His Divine Love comes flowing in.

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