Most churches subsidize any children who want to go to camp but can't afford it - but many do a poor job of letting people know - or the parents have to come begging and worry that everybody will know and look down on them. 

One of the items that has impacted camp costs are the shifts required by regulation.

Example:  When my kids were young, we went to family camp.  As a family, we helped prepare a meal in the kitchen, and always did dishes.

Board of health regulations meant that we couldnt' do that in later years. 

We used to leave the doors open so that the wind would blow through and make the rooms cool.  Firedoors were introduced which stopped air flow ..and the rooms were hot...so..then fans, airconditioners started popping up.

That's a fairly simplistic example of two cost increases...and, some of them make sense..realistically we probably all shouldn't have been helping in the kitchen..just like we all should wear bike helmets, seat belts, and so on.

the drag is..that we lost a whack of fun in the process and drove costs up.

Big Canoe is one that I didn't send the kids too..though, it is an amazing life changing experience. 

The price is for a reason, the programs are outstanding, as are the servies, including health care, counsellors trained in youth programming, and youth ministry, and so on.

I regret that I didn't send the kids there at least once, just so that they could experience it.  I wish our church was more proactive at sending kids to this type of camping experience.

I also sent my kids to local church & non-church camps..including overnights and wilderness and day camps.   Each has had their merits.  some have been better than others.  some i felt the kids were 'safer' than others, and by safer, i include less likely to run into someone who would tell them their faith was wrong and/or that homosexuals would go to hell. 

The local YMCA daycamps I quit sending to due to their extensive usage of LIT and CIT with improperly trained counsellors. Safety was a big issue for me, as was things like sitting & watching movies....instead of interacting.

yes, kids need the get out & hang...rustic camp...run by people who like kids..which can be done at a lot less...but....it also benefits from those camps which  are at the other end. 

RANT:::::

I understand the program at Big Canoe is outstanding and awesome. As I said, our congregation is helping toward helping with cost. I discount that program nothing.

Yet, are we missing the point?

How many miss even a good or well done experience? How many will never have a chance at all? How may will send their kids to Bible camp and say "now we don't believe that" because it is free? How many do go to milder forms of Jesus Camp because the price is right?

What are the latest figures on poverty?  What I saw last was 1 in 6.

Yes, a church may sponsor someone if asked. They may not or they may struggle to. Our charge has raised $200 to date. $200 of a $800 bill, so they still need $600. It might as well be $6 million.

Still, aren't we missing the point? I think we navel gaze and forgot the message. We know the message and will remind you that we know it, if you care enough to stick around and whollop us in the head so that we pay attention to you.

Do we only care about our congregation's children? Our denomination? 

I am surrounded by the working poor. They have a job and still need the food bank. Do we understand that over 40% of low-income kids come from a home with a parent with a full-time job?

Should they have to join the UCC for us to care? No!

Do they have to show up Sunday, kids in tow, to make us think their kids deserve camp?

Then we wonder why to seek help they will go where there are no strings.

Have we asked if maybe they are not there because of that attittude?

They cannot afford the way we think.

They are not worried about bottled water campaigns... they can't afford to buy water, they haul it.... they are worried about a well gone dry. To make us feel better we remind ourselves with Moments for Mission that some are drilling wells someplace....

When we took a hamper out to a family at Christmas, they wanted to know where it came from. Thankfully, it came from us, my wife and I. Why? They did not want it if it came from a church. They were definitely in need, she cried when she said they would hope they made a secular groups list. We asked why? Church ones came with expectations that they would be so grateful they would show up... strings attached. She would feel like a hypocrite or liar. She would be letting them think she might, when she knew she wouldn't. Now, they were spiritual, even religious people, they simply felt church was disconnected from them. They also said they could not bear the collection plate pass.

If what you are doing is working, keep on keeping on. Grow.

In those places it is dying. Quit. What you are doing is not working.

In those places, we cannot keep selling the same shit. They are not buying it. They can't afford it. All we are doing is selling it to the ones who can already afford us.

This very campaign was met with snickers where I live. Nobody knows what Wondercafe is. I got the packet turned over to me, because I was the only one who could put the church mini-site up. I was the only one with internet access and a computer. Oh, I could tell them, but it would still mean nothing.

Anyone know what a CAP, the Community Access Program, is? Anyone online here live in a CAP site area? You probably do. You just have no clue. CAP is for "those folks" who we just assume are like us.

It is community access to internet. People here do not own computers. They do not have internet access. They head to the CAP site, a community centre or some other public place and log on. Visitors, retired cottagers get cell phone towers erected to get high speed internet on their laptop or to have a desktop at the cottage or to commute to work....  and "the other folks" head to the CAP site.

Now you wonder why a church that was a hub of the community is in mothballs... Here, religion disconnected from the common person. Those who still are connected.... those churches are full and building... and they are full of liberal thinking folks, even those with familial ties to the UCC,  who tell their kids "we don't believe that".

From a local standpoint, I can tell you every member who raised their kids in the UCC, their kids and grandkids are at a non-denominational mission church down the road. They have UCC theology, UCC social justice stances... and they are churched elsewhere and say "we don't believe that".

Dare we look at why?

It does cost a lot to run a safe and effective camp.  Also of interest is that there is often funding availabel but it is usually from liquor and gaming sources which the United Church won't use.  I personally am often torn on this issue because if you do accecpt funding you are either giving God a turn to use the money or you are a hypocrite depending which way you spin it.

Peace

Joel

Hi crazyheart,

I agree with StevieG for the most part.

I can remember clearly that when I started my Camp Counsellor Career at Camp Ryerson in 1984 I was paid $75 to watch 8 campers from 4pm Sunday till 11am the following Saturday.  My time off was when we were all sleeping.  I think the kids were asked to pay $125 per week at that point.

Now they are being asked to pay $330 and the kids go home about a half a day earlier.  I do not know what a beginning Counsellor will be paid.

When I began we typically had 2-3 kids per cabin sponsored by CAS in Simcoe or Brant and most Churches in the area would provide the camp fees for one camper.

I was back at Ryerson a couple of years ago and the Director at the time was more than pleased to show me all that they have done with the site since 1984.  The Director was one of my first campers ever so that was a fulfilling moment.

As Pinga points out the costs of doing business and being accredited have driven up expenses and all the while money fed into the camps from congregations and conferences has stayed relatively even.

The same is true of monies that CAS had access to in order to sponsor kids to camps which means that fewer sponsored campers from that sector are participating.

Supportive congregations are not always aware of increases in the cost of camp and still believe that their $100 donation is still enough to send a kid to camp.  According to Ryerson's brochure that doesn't even pay for a tyke camp (arrive on Sunday and go home on Tuesday).

Camp Ganadaoweh will be closed for this summer's camping season as its future is still up in the air to some degree.

The property should be worth close to 3 million dollars and UCOM-HC (United Church Outdoor Ministries--Hamilton Conference) could divide that two ways (between Ryerson and Silver Lake the other camps under the UCOM--HC umbrella or three ways to include Cave Springs which is an incorporated camp in the geographic bounds of Hamilton Conference.

Whichever way it goes that money will not reduce the camp registration rates.

M&S would probably have to double and moneys from National to the various Outdoor Ministry units would have to increase exponentially in order to make our camps accessible on a financial level.

Camp West Haven in or around Pasadena in Newfoundland and Labrador's West District is charging registrations of $110 per week to run a camp the same duration as is Ryerson.  Burry Heights in Newfoundland and Labrador's East District is charging $135 per week.

I've been to both sites and none can compare to Camp Ryerson in terms of number of campers accommodated.  They use a lot of volunteers for their counselling staffs which would allow them to keep their costs down.  I know that historically the camps in NL Conference have struggled with accreditation which impacts upon insurance costs among other things.

I don't see StevieG critiquing the quality of UCOM ministries or sites so much as I see StevieG critiquing the costs of those programs and as a father who will be sending two off to camps this week I have to agree.  United Church Camps can be out of range for quite a few.

Saying that our camps are very affordable is similar to the UCCAN claiming to be all about justice when we were facing down Willie Blackwater in court.

More than a little shameful.

Grace and peace to you.

John

If I appeared to be claiming that our camps are affordable, I apologise.  They certainly aren't.

Stevie, you ask why, and why conservative camps are cheaper.  I would suggest that there are two answers to that.  Big Canoe is run by Toronto Conference, and people from Toronto, for people from Toronto.  It is not run by Muskoka folks for Muskoka folks.  Just look at where the busses run from to see that.

But more to the point, conservative camps have more money because conservative everything has more money.  If we required pledges, enforced by guilt, we would have more money too.

Hi Pinga,

Staffing matters a great deal.

I have worked at three different camps in two different conferences.  I have volunteered at two other camps, one of which was in yet another conference.

Not all United Church camps are the same though you will still hear the same unwavering support given to all.

I checked with on of the camps I worked at outside of Hamilton Conference.  Their rates are somewhat cheaper.  Unless they have seriously changed their hiring practices the savings in registration fees is simply not worth it.

Camps can develop some bad reputations.  I had a friend who told me horror stories of Camp Restall and it sounded like the kind of place I wouldn't want to be affiliated with.  Imagine my surprise when I flipped over an old plaque at Ganadaoweh to find that it had been camp Restall.  Apparently it needed some rebranding work in the mid 80's.  By the time I got there in '88 it had turned things around significantly.

Grace and peace to you.

John

I will say this as well as to why conservatice camps and churches seem to have more money...they also tend not to pay their minstry very well (partially because their average education is far lower).

Perhaps a rebranding of camps not as a place to send church kids in the summer to a place to share the United Church vision of the world.  This would also bring us closer to the evangelism that I think is sometimes missing in the UCC.

Peace

Joel

Perhaps we need to decide what camps are all about.  Why do you send your children to came?  The answers will vary. 

Day Care is one.  I've heard conversations in this area:

"What will you be doing with your kids for the summer?"

"Well, we are going away for the first two weeks in July.  Then they are off to baseball day camp for the next week, then a week at the Baptist came out on Lake ... , then a week at the UCC camp, the next week I'm not sure of - maybe grandparents, then to the Y swim camp, and finally to VBS at that little church down the street that the neighbours go to - but I'll still have to find someone for the afternoon."   Day care seems to be prominent in this scenario - what happens at camp (theology, program, facilities) is secondary.

Or perhaps it is the outdoor experience.  Perhaps for some the rustic experience might be important.  Fresh air, clean water in a river or lake for swimming, open spaces for sports - lots of hiking trails - outdoor crafts and activities - along with opportunities to make friends, play games, and be a bit independant.

Also the outdoor experience but on a different level would be the camps that teach survival skills, teamwork in crossing ravines, white water camoeing, etc. 

Or perhaps kids go to camp for particular skills.  Swim camp where the emphasis is on developing swimming skills.   Ball camp.  Dance camp. Drama camp.  Science camp. Or even remedial reading camp (although it might have a different name).  Kids are sent here for a specific purpose - to learn or develop in this skill. 

And there are the church camps.  They might provide some or all of the above experiences.  I learned to swim at a church camp.  But, I hope that they provide some theology - some introduction or grounding in the beliefs of the denomination operating the camp.  And there is the rub:  each denomination will have a different emphesis.  For UCC camps I would hope that it would help each child develop an idea of who they are in relationship to God and the world.  I would hope that when the child comes home they would say:  I had a great time.  I made some awesome friends.  I caught a frog.  I learned how to paddle a kayak and build a campfire.  and at some time in quiet conversation to say, "At camp we looked at the stars and talked about God, and the wonders of the world, and how we are all related, and how we have to take care of the world.  And do you know that even the insects are important because . . ."  Then I would say that camp is priceless.

RevJohn: My point was to change the perspective inside the church toward camps as a form of reaching out (the antithesis of your circle the wagons impression).  I was actually thinking similar things to you about how a lot of clergy, faithful members and lay leaders got their true start at camps.  If we look at camps in this way perhaps the level of priority at camps might change?

Peace

Joel

My wife was involved in a theatre preformance with the wife of a more conservative non-denominational camp's executive director.

Now, that said, where do children really rank when it is done and done as a priority and when it is not done or not a priority? It causes pause to think.  

I find, that as objectionable as some of that theology may be, as far outside as it may place me, I genuinely understand area parents saying "now, honey, we don't believe all the things they do"... and not solely from a cost perspective.

I started this thread only thinking about cost.

Again, no insult to the UCC intended. For me, it is that we cannot see other ways with blinders on and we cannot correct what we cannot acknowledge. It is all for the betterment of the UCC not to be viewed as detrimental.

Thank you to those who saw that.