Bernie
Ezekiel 38/39
Posted on: 02/03/2012 00:08
Today, on the ski lift, we met a fellow - well educated medical specialist. The lift ride is long in the Rockies so you get to have a good conversation if you are inclined. We were asking about real estate and managed to end on a recommendation from this doctor to read Ezekiel 38/39 - he felt April was going to be a significant month this year. Now we're just looking this up and it seems to indicate a battle of ginormous proportions though its hard sorting through the online hyperbole of crackpots.
What are the views on this scripture, is there any kind of literal interpretation that the church subscribes to?
Thanks for your thoughts...
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Arminius
Well, Bernie, if Israel
Posted on: 02/04/2012 03:56
Well, Bernie, if Israel starts a war against Iran in April, then the battle prophesied by Ezekiel might come true.
I hope they won't make it happen just to fulfill a biblical prophecy.
Kimmio
Arminius wrote: Well,
Posted on: 02/04/2012 04:17
Well, Bernie, if Israel starts a war against Iran in April, then the battle prophesied by Ezekiel might come true.
I hope they won't make it happen just to fulfill a biblical prophecy.
They can decide not to.
Mendalla
A war in the Middle East
Posted on: 02/04/2012 11:00
A war in the Middle East isn't about fulfilling ancient Biblical prophecy. It's about seriously f-ed up modern global geo-politics. It can, and should, be prevented.
We're back to the same old problem - does Biblical prophecy really forecaset current/future events, or does it need to be viewed more in the context of its time and the message seen in that context? Personally, I'm of the latter view. Ezekiel 38-39 has been used time and time again to point to this event or that event. They can't all be right, so maybe less focus on matching the symbols to events and people of our time and more on how the totality of the message casts light on our relationships to God and each other (which is what prophets in the Abrahamic traditions are really all about) is what is really required.
Mendalla
Kimmio
Mendalla wrote: A war in
Posted on: 02/04/2012 11:07
A war in the Middle East isn't about fulfilling ancient Biblical prophecy. It's about seriously f-ed up modern global geo-politics. It can, and should, be prevented.
We're back to the same old problem - does Biblical prophecy really forecaset current/future events, or does it need to be viewed more in the context of its time and the message seen in that context? Personally, I'm of the latter view. Ezekiel 38-39 has been used time and time again to point to this event or that event. They can't all be right, so maybe less focus on matching the symbols to events and people of our time and more on how the totality of the message casts light on our relationships to God and each other (which is what prophets in the Abrahamic traditions are really all about) is what is really required.
Mendalla
I agree.
revjohn
Hi Bernie, Bernie
Posted on: 02/06/2012 11:19
Hi Bernie,
What are the views on this scripture, is there any kind of literal interpretation that the church subscribes to?
The Church? No. I would imagine that there are no end of Churches that have a literal interpretation for these particular chapters.
My initial thought in your companion linking them with April is that we just went through the same exercise in May of last year.
You will hear of wars and rumours of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed.
Grace and peace to you.
John
MikePaterson
After the last ice age
Posted on: 02/05/2012 09:23
After the last ice age ended around 15,000 years ago. Agriculture started kicking in — independently in Papua New Guinea, in China, in Africa’s Sahel region and West Africa, in the Americas, India and Mespotamia — and hunting and gathering faded as the mainstay source of food, even where hunting continued. Agriculture mean people were able to stay in one place and the local population densities increased. Around 9,000 years ago, the climate around the Mediterranean was near perfect for farming. But ice caps had been melting and sea levels had been rising: the sea surged into the Black Sea, and the former “Garden of Eden” that was Mespotamia became vast marshlands.
Then about 5,000 years ago, after 10,000 years of kind times, temperatures in Europe plunged, and droughts hit the Middle East… there was a “miniglacial” period…
Imagine yourself back then before soil science made farming fairly reliable… when communities pretty had to run co-operatively, when harvests had to be stored to get through the rest of the year. But crops are not as good as they had been, strong groups have begun raiding weaker ones to cover their shortages and stave off starvation, military organization is more important than anyone remembers, effective leaders who can extend the security of their group are highly valued…
Petty clashes mature into “war”… trade becomes more deliberate, more organized… Glyn Davies, in his ‘History of Money from Ancient Times to the present Day’ wrote: “Money originated very largely from non-economic causes: from tribute as well as from trade, from blood-money and bride-money as well as from barter, from ceremonial and religious rites as well as from commerce, from ostentatious ornamentation as well as from acting as the common drudge between economic men.” (Think Jason and the Argonauts… the “golden fleece”…)
In the 5th century BCE — just 100 years, 600-501 BCE — was remarkable. Pythagoras taught in Athens, Heraclitus, Aeschylus, Thespis, Epimenides and others laid foundations of thought that are still with us. Zoroaster established his faith in Syria, the Buddha lived, Mahavira founded Jainism, Daoism and Confucianism flourished in China. Democracy was established in Athens. The Jews were subjected to their Babylonian/Chaldean exile. The Persian, Carthaginian and Egyptian Empires were formed. Rome began its rise, The “Iron Age” was supplanting the “Bronze Age” in the proto-Celtic “Halstatt” culture.
In the midst of this cradle of modernity, there we a lot of small, victimized groups of people who labored one tyrant, then the next… one of these tyrants became known as Gog from (the land of) Magog and served, for a time, as a token for them all.
In Britain, he was obviously a more distant myth: there are Irish claims on him as an ancestor… in England, split into two entities — Gog and Magog — he became a pair of giants, guardians of the city, whose images are traditionally carried in the annual Lord Mayor’s Show… while, as hus one self. He was a giant drowned by the Cornish hero, Corin.
The Book of Jubilees and the Dead Seascrolls mention Gog as a relatively minor rogue ruler, Ezekiel (closer to the era of Gog) and present him as an enemy.
Gog, whoever he was, became a mythic bogeyman: an image of exploitative, rampaging imperialism that has been has been identified with the Roman Empire, Napoleon, the Russian Emperor the Soviet Union (Reagan used the image)… and the United States, in the eyes of many, might aptly wear the rhetorical slur.
But, despite the vague references in the Bible, God or the both of them, Gog & Magog, are too historically remote for the image to communicate usefully. It’s merely another “us good”/“them evil” image… a particularly weak, nonspecific one.
WaterBuoy
That's a grand image of the
Posted on: 02/05/2012 20:40
That's a grand image of the golden fleece, a bit felt over the eyes as one decides no longer to think ... like an evil wholly?
That leaves one with that Halo Effect like after having too much gog ... or is that grog ... or magogue ... just crocue 's in other tongues ... ID'll pas as CD ... common differentiation in
WaterBuoy
ID's an odd belief system:
Posted on: 02/05/2012 21:04
ID's an odd belief system: Facing your own Shadow ...
Now is that fear, anger, curi Os Idée ... or just the Joies of see'n into IT?
Many are cho Zen, but few can Z' eit calmly on the approach ... fearful of them's elf ... for what reason as the script say 366+ times ... fear not ... but walk softly ...
Heavy-footed monsters ... weebe IT ... fa-loute of heaven? Jeti find so much to learn in the overturning the trax ... looking behind eM ... they're deep ... to the point ... a la Penne ... goan right to the noodle ... leviathon?
Thon' that's akin to string theory is it knot dead? Ah so there is a catch ... de deuced as fore and knowing when enough is enough/Enoch? The Shadow's speaking to yah ... just bloes de Gogue away ... like that busy whoa m'n in Cold Mountain when she RIP' dah hed off the rue Stir ... that's esh ... that silent dissonance that haunts ... disiplines ... some are denied ... de Lucian aL ... that's de void overhead ... rapture us eh? Data's chi ... hidden pyre ...
Amen!
WaterBuoy
Juis Taed Riem ... piles of
Posted on: 02/05/2012 21:19
Juis Taed Riem ... piles of pages/yeomans? Carry on ...
Shadows of Ole Go-des-as Thei Ayres …
Phoe in et’ic-all-is just light as Levantine Monster …
The Hebrew word as ideal-ism,
I’phen you can make waves wit hitë …
Dyslexics of silence, de deuced in de Duncan as whetted in witch!
Few can understand without a story behind “-ite” …
As alloyed with Theo Sophie …
As just, humble expression of God …
The will to sae sit out side of abstract space that’s …
Dark as Shadow, hoo’ Gnoeδ aul as tuel ‘v carp enter thy scie ‘n …
In tim’it’lye as it burns th’ Eire (meta-boul-ism) …
Bull’n that arcane specimen, pluralized of Ur …
In the unknown case …
As newt, or nuit, odd friend of Jin Иous Scies …
Hur being in the dark of the bowels of di chi Pij of fue aLs …
Racine th Roe the dark searching for an egge’non …
Like a mnemonic, fore thought as IJ Eris is as Thess …
Or Chess, for improving the phun shin of that po’n tang unattached …
Isolated’s on the brae’n, and the dark Shadow of god as μν …
Below the vision of m’n (Ephraim) of mind in the dark …
It which light can evolve in the Shadow of Imaginary Nos. iph …
D’eu can # eM together right …
As John and J’aime o’vite …
Wondering about in a bubble of chance space …
Witches frothy, as quantum, that can be warped …
Bent all out of shape …
When the seize; what’s been created below …
At sou D’ern ends of the medium …
Between the m’n and the normally resting place under dah bo’esh …
A swirl of un-heavenly hue-moor like …
Sah trap, where A’ brae Ham was trapped with a flutter …
As’s metaphor of RIP’eL’n space as tue halves of the former …
Calm together in a flash as settling after the ∂ mote of what’ …
Spin scene as is acronym, an old black dame …
Cuss’d in time as a thinking idealism …
Despised by Rome as Psyche, a Greek Classic Myth ION fantasy …
As maggot, or ma Gogue of a worm hole in thinking space …
Like hosier, something akin to soc po’ PET …
Of Socrates, stating there’s nothing tuit but mind …
And it must go on!
And you know what limited authority did toh’M …
With an extract of tri …
That came forth as a toxin to th’Eire passions …
About illogical dispensing of corrupt th’ aughts and aught knot’s …
About Jinn ET’IC Allah bound Idée all-isms …
Laid out as decrees that would become degrees …
As expressed unknown in Grecian Urn …
The whole thing as in verse, or something to blow over to rise …
In passionate fantasy …
That just takes a man’s thought’s away …
And thus the elevation of Love in mind as a myth …
And the Black Hole became a myth of beyond the vial age centred …
Onabe witching word that few understand as gathered about …
As idealism of the soul, of pedantry …
Learning about amen’s mind through a Black Hole in heist’inking space, imagination person if ey’d; illusion!
Bernie
@ Mpeterson & revj ...I'll
Posted on: 02/06/2012 02:29
@ Mpeterson & revj ...I'll ignore the ski lift guy then and buy the house ;)
LBmuskoka
Ah, but then there are the
Posted on: 02/06/2012 07:58
Ah, but then there are the Mayans ;-)
For a moment, nothing happened. Then, after a second or so, nothing continued to happen.
Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
WaterBuoy
Nothing continued to happen
Posted on: 02/06/2012 08:27
Nothing continued to happen cause mankind was caught up in the rift ... that's ole in the dark arch of nite ... de Shadow speak' natchez ... nothing tuit!
Jui'st abstract thought with something missing ... lynx ... close to a cougar ... it's black i'near ... but someone should be thankful for a grand meal ... as milled well-ruminated over ...!
Rift is that like devine h'art ... OD'Eire ...
airclean33
I was wondering --Why worry
Posted on: 02/06/2012 11:00
I was wondering --Why worry so much about tomorrow ,dose today not have enough to worry about?-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------I hope this is of help-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Someone else Wrote this.--------------------------------------------------------------------------
2 Thessalonians 2:3-10
(3) Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, (4) who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. (5) Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? (6) And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. (7) For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. (8) And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. (9) The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, (10) and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
Daniel 7:8
(8) I was considering the horns, and there was another horn, a little one, coming up among them, before whom three of the first horns were plucked out by the roots. And there, in this horn, were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking pompous words.
Daniel 7:21
(21) "I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them,
Daniel 7:25
(25) He shall speak pompous words against the Most High,
Shall persecute the saints of the Most High,
And shall intend to change times and law.
Then the saints shall be given into his hand
For a time and times and half a time.
Revelation 13:11-18
(11) Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth, and he had two horns like a lamb and spoke like a dragon. (12) And he exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence, and causes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. (13) He performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men. (14) And he deceives those who dwell on the earth by those signs which he was granted to do in the sight of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who was wounded by the sword and lived. (15) He was granted power to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed. (16) He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads, (17) and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. (18) Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man: His number is 666.
Revelation 19:20
(20) Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.
New King James Version Change Bible versions
Paul wrote II Thessalonians to correct their false impression by telling them what Christ had revealed to him regarding the "gathering together with Christ" of those dead in Christ and those remaining alive when He returned. He opens by telling them, first of all, that Christ's return will be preceded by a period of apostasy that could include anything from a falling away, a departure from doctrine or teaching, all the way to and including an outright political rebellion.
The second sign would be the appearance of the man of sin. This person has four different names or titles, but all of them are described similarly: the man of sin (II Thessalonians 2:3-10), the little horn (Daniel 7:8), the two-horned lamb who spoke like a dragon (Revelation 13:11-18), and the false prophet (Revelation 19:20). The description in each location is not exactly alike, but each adds to what the other gives. Consider this summary of comparisons.
All of these scriptures are describing the same person. The Bible shows that this person—the man of sin—has a direct connection to a large political power and has a religious influence. It should be understood that we are dealing with a personage and with prophecies of global significance.
revjohn
Hi Bernie, Bernie
Posted on: 02/06/2012 11:19
Hi Bernie,
@ Mpeterson & revj ...I'll ignore the ski lift guy then and buy the house ;)
I don't see a theological problem with that.
Grace and peace to you.
John
WaterBuoy
Worry about tomorrow? Today's
Posted on: 02/06/2012 11:52
Worry about tomorrow? Today's enough for the mortal!
And it is said that Love is the only medium that can reach across the border of the infinite ... to care about the health of the alien ... that which we mortals do not know!
Is that a different kind of emotion like compassion as infinite altruism in the camp of Jaqob de lyre ... a fine whine ... for those who don't work at it ... subliminal understanding?
Do we hate what we do not know; and what exactly do we know of the indeterminate?
I get a chuckle out of those that think they have it all in hand ... it is not what you know that is dangerous ... but what you don't know that is Ephraim Pha Tael ... mortals should extend themselves beyond the self-imposed barriers ...
Now there's a stretch ... or an imp-loose-in ... internal dimensions ... well-folded and humbly out of sight ... of the literal dimension! So much Moor tuit ...
blackbelt
buy the house !
Posted on: 02/06/2012 12:17
buy the house !
Mendalla
LBmuskoka wrote: For a
Posted on: 02/06/2012 13:38
For a moment, nothing happened. Then, after a second or so, nothing continued to happen.
Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
Wish more people would read Adams instead of conspiracy/prophecy BS. He was a wise man in his witty English way who died way too soon.
Mendalla
blackbelt
Mendalla wrote: LBmuskoka
Posted on: 02/06/2012 14:59
For a moment, nothing happened. Then, after a second or so, nothing continued to happen.
Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
Wish more people would read Adams instead of conspiracy/prophecy BS. He was a wise man in his witty English way who died way too soon.
Mendalla
and for the moments to come,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
chansen
Mendalla wrote: LBmuskoka
Posted on: 02/06/2012 15:01
For a moment, nothing happened. Then, after a second or so, nothing continued to happen.
Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
Wish more people would read Adams instead of conspiracy/prophecy BS. He was a wise man in his witty English way who died way too soon.
Mendalla
Briiliant, brilliant guy. Read "Last Chance to See", written with zoologist Mark Carwardine. It's relatively rare, compared to his other work. Adams could make anything funny, but reading him explain just how improbable it is that the New Zealand kakapo ever breeds at all, given that the male's mating ritual seems designed to frustrate and elude any female in the vicinity, will cause your own internal organs to be ripped apart, in a good way.
rhbilly
Hi there AC33 Good post and
Posted on: 02/06/2012 15:10
Hi there AC33
Good post and something to think about.
Another place Gog appears in scripture is Revelation 20:8 and interestingly enough, their mention is made near the end in more ways than one
I saw this thread and wondered what everyone would be saying - it must have just started because there's not much being said yet.
I'd buy the house too.
airclean33
Hi rhbilly---Thanks guy , but
Posted on: 02/06/2012 15:21
Hi rhbilly---Thanks guy , but I didn't write it ,I just posted it. Bernie Buying the house . I believe He thinks, the earth may be here , longer than april , this year.
airclean33
Hi rhbilly---Thanks guy , but
Posted on: 02/06/2012 15:21
Hi rhbilly---Thanks guy , but I didn't write it ,I just posted it. Bernie Buying the house . I believe He thinks, the earth may be here , longer than april , this year.
WaterBuoy
And there it goes again
Posted on: 02/07/2012 09:29
And there it goes again nothing like the mind of a mortal with all that intelligence out there ... he separates himself as Gog ... that can be goc, or goth in scripts of other phonetics, and pedre be heard it as a cock crowing ... inde dark!
Nothing tuit! But a huge hunger to know setting mortal apart from the more extensive portion, defined as intellect (Webster) and the green-eye'd monster would tred on that tendancy. You wish to know why creation isolated mankind? Now there's a heavenly RIP'Eire ... divined mind as a literal definition of Reuben ... fallout of shamayim ... a legge a'scie ... that we live with ... myth as irony!
MC jae
LBmuskoka wrote: Ah, but
Posted on: 02/08/2012 16:35
Ah, but then there are the Mayans ;-)
The world for the Mayans ended centuries ago.
MC jae
Mendalla wrote:We're back to
Posted on: 02/08/2012 16:38
The Bible writings of the day they were written were meant for the day they were written. We can learn from them, but should see them in their historic and cultural contexts. The best guide for us these days is what the Holy Spirit is currently telling people.