rishi
Fishers of persons & Fishers of praise, pleasure, gain, & fame
Posted on: 12/27/2011 12:18
So much of what I do -- and, I believe, much of what others do as well -- often amounts to fishing for a fix of praise, or pleasure, or gain, or fame. And, although I know these goods are fleeting, I seem to fish for them as intently as if they would surely usher in the permanent satisfaction of my soul. And when I am not fishing for praise, pleasure, gain, or fame, I am often seeking waters where I can easily dump experiences of blame, pain, loss, or obscurity. Again, I know rationally that these evils are not enduring, but I seem to dispose of them as anxiously as if they were the building blocks of an eternal Hell. Nowhere, in my experience, is this more true than on internet "social media" sites, where the fishing for goods and the dumping of evils seems to be the reflex that keeps the systems going.
I am finding that the more I recognize this kind of fishing-and-dumping process as it is happening, in myself and others, the more quiet I am becoming. And occasionally, from out of that quietness, I encounter what I am coming to understand as a fisher of persons emerging. It is a completely different species altogether. It is a process in which something genuinely Christlike is transpiring. Genuinely good news is being transmitted, received, and responded to in kind. These are the threads, and the threads within threads, that I am seeking to locate and to follow.
It's very challenging, I'm finding. I have to be very quiet or I miss them altogether and end up either fishing-and-dumping myself or caught up in someone else's fishing-and-dumping. And so I find that I'm becoming less and less active, or maybe just more discriminating. It is a good think I think.
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Arminius
Hi Rishi: I just
Posted on: 12/27/2011 13:31
Hi Rishi:
I just explained what "being fishers of (wo)men" means to me in your "seeing Christ in others" thread.
It means doing my best to make them aware of their innate divinity. It means leading them to the water of life. But, alas, I can't make them swim in the godly element, or make them aware that they consist of the godly element. Swimming in the godly element and consisting of the godly element is the greatest insight to me, but I can't make others attain that insight. I can only share it. "Insight" means that it has to happen within—within them! Alas, I can't make this happen for them, and this is a constant source of sadness to me, as much as having attained the insight myself is a constant source of joy.
Neo
To me, when one becomes a
Posted on: 12/27/2011 13:38
To me, when one becomes a fisher of men, (and I use this term in the soul sense of man, meaning both men and women), then one has recognized the importance of service. For only through love and service can one walk the path of salvation.
Fishing for praise, pleasure, gain and fame is the antithesis of service.
airclean33
A FISHER OF PERSONS--- We can
Posted on: 12/27/2011 16:56
A FISHER OF PERSONS--- We can only be are best at that ,with Christ Jesus and through Him. Peter although a fisherman did not know what side of the boat that the fish were on. Jesus did, and told him where to sett his nets.As later in life Jesus would show him, who to preach to, and when.I believe it is are job to make sure are nets are well kept and in good repair. A good fisherman will spend as much time repairing and, checking nets, as useing them. As good Christians we must spend time in Gods Word, in study and understanding, and then we must listen for our Lord, telling us, where and when.-------------As for --Praise- Pleasure --Gain--and- Fame. Mine will go to the Greatest fisher of Persons, that ever was, (Jesus).---------
Pilgrims Progress
God does indeed work in
Posted on: 12/27/2011 17:19
God does indeed work in mysterious ways...........
Yesterday I had written a wondermail confiding of painful feelings concerning family and Christmas.
And yes, I even used the expression "dumping".
So, when I first read your post, Rishi, I felt a pang of guilt.
Yes, I thought, he's nailed it.
Wondercafe (and probably other social media sites) is largely a place for fishing and dumping........
On the surface, much of what we do here concerns fishing for praise and pleasure - or dumping our loss, blame, pain or obscurity.
But, isn't that what we humans do?
Isn't that part of the pulsing of what we call life?
Isn't "dumping" what Jesus encountered every day in his ministry?
If so, the question to be addressed is did Jesus see it as "dumping"?
I think not.
As one who experienced the human condition he understood it's pain - the pain of loss.
This loss encountered many things - not only the loss of dear ones, health, youth, but also the loss of feelings of self-worth, hope, courage. The sort of loss that makes one act in self-defeating ways.........
Perhaps this post is nothing more than a justification for my own Wondercafe contributions - I excel at "dumping".
And yes, I admit to getting a little rush of pleasure if someone compliments me on a post.........
I see no virtue in keeping others at arms-length and engaging in philosophical discourse. Passion may be messy but, hey, it's the stuff of humanity.......
For those that wish to "dump" - I'm only a wondermail away.
Neo
Pilgrims Progress
Posted on: 12/27/2011 18:39
...Perhaps this post is nothing more than a justification for my own Wondercafe contributions - I excel at "dumping".
And yes, I admit to getting a little rush of pleasure if someone compliments me on a post.........
There's nothing wrong with feeling good about helping others, as long as your motives are in the right place. If you feel good because it "strokes your ego" .. well then .. that's a different matter.
InannaWhimsey
These poor reality
Posted on: 12/27/2011 18:08
These poor reality experiments have tough jobs (but are quite patient, I hear)
(those poor 13 Apostles are QED of the importance of always checking the fine print in any contract)
Alex
This is only human. As
Posted on: 12/27/2011 22:18
This is only human. As Pilgrims Progress says more or less. To see Christ in others one must see Christ in oneself. Peace
Pilgrims Progress
Neo wrote: Pilgrims
Posted on: 12/28/2011 00:37
...Perhaps this post is nothing more than a justification for my own Wondercafe contributions - I excel at "dumping".
And yes, I admit to getting a little rush of pleasure if someone compliments me on a post.........
There's nothing wrong with feeling good about helping others, as long as your motives are in the right place. If you feel good because it "strokes your ego" .. well then .. that's a different matter.
(Sigh) I guess I'm just not a very nice person......
And, as further evidence of my evil nature, I confess to feeling a wee bit irritated by your pomposity in mentioning, "as long as your motives are in the right place".
Howzabout you leave my motives up to me and God?
waterfall
I think it's probably a good
Posted on: 12/28/2011 10:13
I think it's probably a good exercise to seek out what motivates us, afterall, we're only human. There is such a thing as a healthy ego, whereas the opposite being egolessness can actually create an unhealthy response to others.
Neo
Pilgrams, I'm sorry if I
Posted on: 12/28/2011 13:45
Pilgrams, I'm sorry if I offended you. It was not my intention.
RitaTG
If I may point out a point of
Posted on: 12/28/2011 15:33
If I may point out a point of balance here......
Consider a road with a ditch on either side ..... I try and view issues this way...
There is a need to be able to vent ... to share and dump a bit.....
That is a valid part of the path....
....
Lets look at one ditch...
.......
There is a ditch on one side that due to the feelings of guilt (condemnation) .... we feel we have to hold everything inside and just bear it all .... alone.... This can go so far as to holding it back from God because we don't want to be a whiner. We ignore the scriptural urgings to bring our burdens to Christ and also to share our burdens with each other. A dangerous place because we exclude ourselves from others and are all alone trying to handle it ....alone....
....
Now to the other ditch
....
Here we wallow in our self pity ..... We really don't want answers .... we want others to mourn with us and for us. We look to justify our viewpoints and our resulting actions that we plainly know are not right. At its extreme we are so self centered that we react spiritually violently to any help that is offered and we drive others away. This too is a very dangerous place to be as we are alone .... all alone.. and we wallow in self pity with no heart to change anything.
.....
Sometimes the edge of the ditch is steep and sharp .... more often ...far more gradual.
We ignore the bumpy ride on the soft shoulders of the road and sooner or later we get pulled into the ditch.
.......
Here is how personally tell where I am at ...... I look at whether or not my problem is pulling me to be alone or not. When I am venting .... am I looking to clear out the yuckies and make room for positive or am I keeping the problem as my personal pity blanket. Do I want things to change for the better or not? Am I willing to do something about it or am I just putting up roadblocks like the "There's a Hole in my Bucket Dear Lisa" song? Am I listening to wise advice? Am I sharing or hiding?
This is how I try and recognize the bumpiness of the shoulder of the road before I end up in a ditch.
We have all spent time in either of these ditches and we do spend a lot of time bumping along the shoulder of the road. We just need to be mindiful as use a little more finesse in our driving....
....
I do hope this helps a bit and thank you for allowing me to share a bit
Hugs
Rita
rishi
Pilgrims Progress
Posted on: 12/31/2011 11:59
So, when I first read your post, Rishi, I felt a pang of guilt.
On the surface, much of what we do here concerns fishing for praise and pleasure - or dumping our loss, blame, pain or obscurity.
But, isn't that what we humans do?
Isn't that part of the pulsing of what we call life?
Isn't "dumping" what Jesus encountered every day in his ministry?
If so, the question to be addressed is did Jesus see it as "dumping"?
I think not.
At a dinner theatre in Atlanta back in the 1980s I saw a comedy called "Della's Diner." One of Della's many zingers that still stays in my mind is: "There's a fine line between tellin' the truth & talkin' trash".
Your response points out to me that what gets called "dumping" can be a wide variety of things, some of which are essential to being fully human. I am all for being with, and sharing, our experiences of pain, loss, blame, and obscurity. That is, I believe, the only alternative to the kind of disposal of uncomfortable feelings that I was describing. And, in the same way, the joy of being recognized, understood, and appreciated is not the same as fishing for praise. The lines between these experiences may be fine, but they are very important because they differentiate the life-giving from the harmful.
Another nuance that your response highlights for me is that I may well enter a conversation (cyber or otherwise) with a view to disposing of some aspect of my life which I feel is unbearable... but if you meet me as a person, one who matters, I may become better able to bear and integrate what I initially felt I could only jettison. Similarly, I may enter a space with a view to sucking up as much praise as I can, but if the conversational conditions at play in that space allow me to feel valued regardless of the "praiseworthiness" of my output, I may be able to just relax and be myself.
As usual, Pilgrim, you help me to better understand what it is that I am talking about!
rishi
RitaTG wrote: If I may
Posted on: 12/31/2011 12:08
If I may point out a point of balance here......
Beautiful. Thanks. As someone who's spent time in many such ditches, I appreciate the metaphor. It's also nice in that it sometimes takes help from an other to get out of a ditch (an other who is not stuck in the same ditch!)
rishi
If how we actually live our
Posted on: 01/09/2012 15:20
If how we actually live our lives is the "bait" which attracts (or repels) others, then maybe "fishing for persons" is simply inviting others into genuine, respectful dialogue. If that is the case, then the verbal dimension of evangelization would not be that different from the kinds of conversations Socrates used to engage others in to grow their wisdom. But, on the other hand, "Repent, for the Kingdom of God is at hand!" doesn't sound very dialogical.
rishi
With all this talk of fishing
Posted on: 01/14/2012 16:43
With all this talk of fishing and bait, it figures that I would end up talking about 'hooks' in tomorrow's sermon:
Hooks for Catching Spiritual Meaning in our Lives
Arminius
Teachers of creative writing
Posted on: 01/14/2012 20:01
Teachers of creative writing tell budding writers that the most important part of any piece of writing is the "hook that pulls the reader in."
What kind of hook would draw people into spirituality?
Scientists are the High Priests of today. If we were to define spirituality in scientific terms, with the backing of the scientific community, then this might be the hook that catches spiritual meaning for the rest of us.
Many scientists already agree that the unitive state is the basic state of being. And, because this state is a state of synthesis, they agree than it can't be comprehended by analysis alone. But, being the basic state of being, it can be felt, and is being felt, in an unthinking or non-analytical state of mind, as in meditation. Religious and non-religious meditators alike agree that the unity of being is the number one mediatative experience and insight. And many scientifically-minded meditators agree that spirituality is unity.
A few years ago, the United Nations wanted to declare a universal spirituality based on meditation as a universal spiritual practice, with the unitive insight as the basic meditative insight and cosmic and planetary unity as the basic belief.
Alas, the motion was voted down.
WaterBuoy
Arminious, "Alas, the
Posted on: 01/25/2012 08:48
Arminious,
"Alas, the motion was voted down."
Would this widespread meditation smell of thinking? We couldn't have that in an emotional environment (overtly spiritual)! The stink of an aura of truth ... can gospel be found here in other than converse form? It appears to be out there ...
Libelous to the role models that often do as they please as a matter of authority ... and we know what authority does. This gives Micah a great truth to speak about as humility and justice ... but them mortals don't like prophets either. Look what they did to that one 2000 years ago ... made hym into myth or sublime proportions ... a healthy soul as defined in ego ... then there's the other kind!
There is a painting here in Fredericton at the Beaverbrook Gallery called:
Santé(a)go eL Grande--- Salvador Dali
(I have a copy on my office wall)
But then Dali was considered an odd prophet, and the painting is beyond the comprehension of the vernacular, so it must be set aside in the ditches of life, for odd people to draw meaning from. There is a sort of network imposed on a sky space in the creative image ...
Then perhaps people can delve into the rationale about why we shouldn't hide the meditational side of the mind that isn't so fixated on cognizance of truth as evil. Is that just because much of mankind is well unspeakable. There has to be something in there that's good and fair ... some digging at the foot of it is necessary ... then the foot is like the sole eh! Like "santé" is healthy in strange languages and "Ego" is the aware part as contrary to the oppression of the emotional aspect ... the ID ... the primal power ... emotions that get it going are often a real pain to understand!
E ghost is redundant as "e" is a motive letter (like esh) and ghost that's just an dark spirit ... like soul, of intelligence ... just out-a-here---Webster on intellect? Then a human dark or light characters in the greater field? Hold eM up to the light ... are they opaque or reflective ... eccos of dual powers one latent ... thinking disciple like Tome ... as bo'quish ...
Isn't that sublime? Below the emotional power of word ... a hidden et'ic ... hidden comprehension!
Like an idealism in a mortal and yet idealism ... isn't that a metaphorical GOD?
rishi
Back in the 1980s I found
Posted on: 02/06/2012 12:38
Back in the 1980s I found myself in the hospital for a month after a drug binge that almost killed me. I have only one memory of that hospital stay. There was a nurse, a woman in her 50s, whose name I can't remember. She sat down with me once in a quiet room to have a conversation. I started talking, saying who-knows-what. And she interrupted me, and said, "you're not breathing normally."
Because she was a nurse, I was alarmed at first, because I thought that she meant there was something seriously wrong with me physically, like I was about to have a heart attack or something. I wasn't thinking very clearly at the time.
But her intention was more personal than that. She told me not to say anything. And she slowly talked me through a process of learning how to breath more naturally and fully, from the diaphragm. She also pointed out that my hands were tightly folded in my lap and my shoulders were 'scrunched' up toward my neck, and asked me to just let my shoulders drop and my hands drop and hang down, so that I wasn't exerting any effort, and to continue breathing more 'normally.'
I remember feeling much better right away. She didn't have much to say after that. She wrote down the names of some therapists outside of the hospital that she thought would be helpful for me. But I will never forget her, because there was something about how she interacted with me, combined with teaching me how to breathe and let my muscles relax, that really opened me up on a personal level. I was more 'present' to her than I was with anyone else at that hospital. I felt that I could really trust her.
And now, this memory of her and how she interacted with me is at the heart of how I understand being a "fisher of persons." There is a kind of absence of any agenda other than being with, understanding, and being of help to the person you are interacting with. There are no "hooks" concealed in words that are pulling for a particular response from the person.
Out of this experience, I've developed a belief that in order to enter into a genuine dialogue with someone, both people have to eventually be breathing fairly 'normally', and that requires their bodies to be fairly relaxed. I've never been as direct about this with a conversation partner as that nurse was with me, but I try to always be aware of these simple dynamics, especially within myself. When I am fishing for praise, or trying to dispose of blame, or the like, my breathing becomes very shallow and my muscles start to contract.
For me this is part of my ongoing recovery process to not fall back into a way of being with other people that makes me wish I was getting high instead of being myself. But I think it goes way beyond just a way out of the dynamics of addiction to something more basic about being spiritually awake.
WaterBuoy
That goes from ID (primal
Posted on: 02/05/2012 20:02
That goes from ID (primal force, the power) to eccos ... and how the self-contained hates eccos ... creates boundaries that other's can't see as they walk all over you ...
That's sole man and UV in Grecian Urn ... thats the Shadow being with Yah ... disarticulating 'ur self?
Some are and some are not ... then there are those that span the line feeling lonely caught up betwixt and between hostile entities ... like Micahs sense of justice ... Sophie's Choice ...
Such is like that b'clical verse taken inverse as God will place temptation between ye on the ends ... a medium fore th'aughts? What you don't see as mani don't until that chance is gone ... speak moor of IT!
airclean33
Hi rishi---- You
Posted on: 02/06/2012 13:08
Hi rishi---- You Wrote-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------. But I think it goes way beyond just a way out of the dynamics of addiction to something more basic about being spiritually awake.-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------airclean33--It I could rishi , just change the word under lined to sin. I think you are very close to the walk. Awaken sleeper, open your eyes,hear you, the word of God that loves you, know the Love that passes all understaning and help, the rest of the world wake.
WaterBuoy
Addiction to life is a
Posted on: 02/07/2012 09:21
Addiction to life is a sin?
Why do churches preach eternal life? Is that a sin? Then life would be de devil to God ... all-that-is-outa here movein cos moe logically ... intellect is beyond (myth) an emotional persona ...!!!!!!
A fear of death is a fin' line to stand upon, if you're at the end of it in polity ... that's an extreme stand! Authorities impose such status on the wee folk as sacrifice ... thinking it'll save themselves from the infinite Shadow. Some imagination required to take a person beyond eM's elf ...
Is there any doubt we may have been taught this in verse proportion ... that's the word ... Afar reach in an ink well ... achronym for the untouchable mind? Such is unspeakable under Roman law ... common folk arn't to know this stuff. Ad continuum in the church fathers and such goest on today ... as ... "you don't wish to goth ere!"
A fluid state like shamayim ... the waters above .... odd semi-conductor works in both emotive and intellectual fields of Black & White genres ... them spirits like goan --- 'indi alien expression! You can work ID you know ... take the plunge ...