Panentheist,

That is how I have always seen it. For me, it has to be about who God is and not who we are. The parable of the wayward son has the son leaving and returning. The father is constant.

I do not believe God ever leaves us. I believe we leave God.  

I have always believed in universal reconciliation or universal salvation. Certainly, some ancients like Clement and Origen did. It simply was stamped out. There was a vested interest in its destruction.

God allows forgiveness to flow into our lives, renews our relationships with Himself and others, and assures us of the God-love despite our sin.

We are the prodigal child who is lavishly welcomed and forgiven.

The God-forgiveness comes through Christ. Jesus Himself claimed and exercised the power to forgive sins.

Why do consequences have to come from God? Why do we so often overlook the consequences of our actions in this world and focus on what will happen in the afterlife? Isn't it enough to have to feel remorse and suffer the consequences of what we've said and done here? Seems to me that eternal damnation for making a few mistakes (and hopefully learning from those mistakes) is a little bit much. Especially when our own human criminal justice system treats the worst offenders with so much mercy and respect. At some point, we have to consider what we humans will tolerate among ourselves and recognize that if we can forgive the worst of crimes, God's ability to forgive must be beyond our comprehension.  

Hi GR,

Could you elaborate on this, please?

My understanding is that as far as God is concerned, the relationship is always there. But, when it comes to our side of the relationship - there are times when, like the prodigal son, we choose to walk away. In that sense, wouldn't you define that as us needing to restore our relationship with God?

The prodigal son disowned his father by leaving. Now, of course the loving father, when the son stopped his disobedience, was more than willing to accept him back. This is the way I believe things work when it comes to God and us as well. When we stop resisting the God-Spirit, the Father who deeply, deeply loves us warmly welcomes us home.

punishment has nothing to do with it. feeling sorry has nothing to do with it. changing has nothing to do with it. Forgiveness is the recognition that we are human and, as humans, have failings. It reminds all of us that we are not dealing with saints and sinners but with people.

To say someone is forgiven does not mean forget it'; it's okay.

It means I recognize that you (and I) are humans with human failings - so how can we most usefully deal with this problem?

The idea that God would create us with failings built in, and then punish us for having them  is, to say least, silly.

I don't believe in God as a cosmic judge.

Making mistakes is an essential part of the learning process: we have to do things wrong in order to learn to do them right! As soon as a mistake is seen as such and remedied, it becomes a valuable learning experience.

Not making mistakes is the biggest mistake.

Luke 15 (re: Prodigal Son)

 ¹ Now the tax collectors and sinners were all gathering around to hear Jesus. ² But the Pharisees and the teachers of the law muttered, "This man welcomes sinners and eats with them."

By way of response Jesus told 3 parables: about a lost sheep, about a lost coin and about a lost son.

All 3 parables describe the joy over one sinner who repents. There is no mention of punishment, only of joy and welcome for the one who repented (or "turned back", perhaps?). It seems pretty clear that forgiveness is taken for granted in each case.

To err is human, not to forgive is stupid, to forgive is smart, but to realize that there is nothing to forgive is divine.

We all make mistakes; it is an essential part of the learning process and of being human. Some mistakes, though, are more severe than others, but we have to forgive them anyway, for our own peace of mind. And, if we ourselves have committed them, then we have to forgive ourselves.

Forgiveness does not mean approval, but forgiveness always implies accusation.

God, however, is beyond accusation and beyond forgiveness.

I disagree.  To say there is nothing to forgive is not divine it is naive.  To know what actually needs forgiveness is wise and divine.

To forgive no matter what, to forgive and actually drop the matter--now that is divine (and seems to be beyond most of us humans).

I agree with this - people DO do things which are wrong or perceived as wrongs - as such, forgiveness can't be written off. Anyone seeing my post from late last night down the board here, knows my family is going through a moment of crisis and forgiveness, and to suggest we should ignore wrongs by way of healing will simply be setting ourselves up for more of the same mistakes that brought us to this point as we have already been enablers with heads in the sand for too long. That said - it is our forgiveness, and forgiveness of us, that will allow all of us to move to a more positive place. I strongly believe that.

Similarly I believe God's welcome and forgiveness is always available to us, provided we are sincere in our desire for and approach to it (yes, no last minute 'CYA' deathbed professions of faith); in that sense it IS like a dog (I too have seen this video btw). When we leave our beloved pets at home, are they sad? For sure. If we mistreat them, do they need to learn to trust again? Sure. But they can, and they do, and they will. I think we humans have a lot to learn from God and dogs on this score - have expectations and needs, but also recognize there will always be those who fall short of them, and it is the trying, learning, and improving that counts.

I'm not a big admirer of forgiving and forgetting. I don't think that's what forgiveness is about. If a person rapes another, you forgive him - but you certainly don't forget it or just let it go. Forgiving simply does not mean that. It means recognizing that this person IS a real person with failing built in. You don't punish him for having failings, but you don't forget them, either. You have to deal with them, But you deal with them realizing you are dealing with a person. (Unless, of course, you actually believe in evil spirits, which I suspect many Christians do.)

Forgiveness has nothing to do with whether the offender really truly sincerely wants to be forgiven - that's sort of thinking is just a gloss on the old self righteous view of forgiveness.

There were societies in which people once were punished for being ill. Then we matured enough to realize people became ill because it was a human failing - and we dealt with the illness. Forgiveness is like that.

I don't pretend, incidentally, that I have the strength to forgive everybody no matter what. But I know I should.

Calvinism would say that forgiveness is only for the elect.  So then forgiveness is not for all.  In fact those who are elect may do whatever evil they dream up and be forgiveness.  Those who are not elect can do good things their whole life and sacrifice and yet will never be loved by God so they are likewise wasting their time.

marzo - read your last paragraph. I've no doubt it is true. But if it is, why have a faith and then go thinking in unfaithful terms. I don't  see the point. It's like deciding to take up swimming - with the priviso that you really refuse to get wet.

I've been trying to find a way to articulate my thoughts more clearly, and I don't know if I can, but I don't agree with you, Arm, that evil is the shadow side of good, and is in any way necessary.  And I'm not saying everything's groovy and we should just 'forgive and forget".

I'm agnostic.  I'm not even sure I believe in god, but if I did, god would be as I described -- "Isness", "pure being".  Beyond human projection.

Here's what I think. 

We are fancy chimps.  We wear neckties and smoke cigars and invent battery-operated cocktail stirrers and blow things up.  We make a huge mess.

We evolved what we believe is "intelligence" over time to wage war on each other for limited resources.  It was actually reading Jane Goodall's Reason for Hope that helped give form to what makes sense to me.

In our collective ignorance, we don't believe ourselves to be some kind of fancy primate.  We need to understand that first before we can start to override our basic nature to change it. 

We look at chimps and see them being cute, mischevious, caring and funny, but what we don't see is the pettiness, the horrible wars over bananas that culminate in tearing an infant apart or twisting the broken leg of an elder -- around and around.......

I don't want to make this post any longer right now, but I think if there is a god, we are viewed as the critters we are,  and it's understood that we're at the mercy of our adaptation and genetics.  Mass murderer, torture and adultery are part of that heritage -- maybe in some, like a cancer that takes over a life or a society.

God knows all this and still loves us -- if God exists.

On an interpersonal level, justice is needed if we are to adapt and survive.

I know God exists and  no matter what is done by us and to us, God welcomes us home. Can it get any better than this?

Some reason for believing it would be a start.