Rishi,

For the purposes of this question, how are you defining the "church"? Do you mean the Christian Church in general? The United Church of Canada in particular? Or perhaps something else?

Dogmatism (looking at the cute picture of the boy praying with his dog, and the word dogma came to mind--of course nothing wrong with him praying beside his dog! So sweet!)

Maybe just let your gut define it without too much analysis.  I'm not trying to be difficult; it's just that as soon as we start parsing things out like that, I think we're moving away from what we actually believe to be true at a much less sophisticated level.  It doesn't matter if it's applicable or generalizable or any of those things. Hope that helps.

I said dogmatism off the top of my head--my church is actually pretty good in that sense--but there is a lingering sense of dogmatism in some respects that blocks openness. The unyeilding attachment to tradition for tradition's sake can do this sometimes, even if not deliberately.  I have a bias though because I wasn't raised in church.

I don't know what happened there. I wanted to add to this post, but can't erase the middle one.

I have an interest in interfaith understanding and cooperation in  peace-making. So, dogmatism "It's our way or the highway" type dogma to be really antitethical to this. It's a deal breaker. UCC is pretty good about it, but the  greater church in general isn't I don't think.

I said dogmatism--my church is actually pretty good in that sense--but there is a lingering sense of dogmatism in some respects that blocks openness. I have a bias though because I wasn't raised in church.

double post

Fear and timidity.

Gut level response?

Ministers, who like politicians, follow the party line.........

If you don't give your congregation your truth with regard to your faith, in reality you're offering them nothing.

Above all, Jesus gave his truth - and was prepared to state clearly where he differed from the church of his day..............

I agree with Kimmio: Dogmatism.

Is that why there is a dog in the picture with the praying boy, Rishi? Is dogmatism for the dogs?

Okay, will go with my gut reaction...

The one thing really wrong with the church is that the balance between thinking, doing and feeling is out of whack.

Thinking = what we believe to be true. Being in our heads, intellectualising etc. To paraphrase one author, making sure we don't leave our brains at the door when we come to church.  Reading about faith, making sense out of the gift of faith.

Doing = actually following Jesus. Taking his commandment to love God and love our neighbour seriously. Putting our faith into action.

Feeling = the emotional component of faith. Trusting our intuition, being open to God's voice,  Mystical experience. Allowing our hearts to be moved.  Operating at that less sophisticated level you mentioned, perhaps.

Interesting thread, Rishi.

in a safe environment ('setting') with trained psychonauts in an empirical program of psychedelic usage to enable the congregants to grok themselves and others better, thus fulfilling the three legs of safe drug use...this will lead to greater empathy and agape

i think it's time to bring back the Eleusinian Mysteries back, eh?

It is boring. To me, a slow, tedius, ritual grind.

There are dozens of sites that I know of and probably thousands I don't, on line:

Spiritual, religious, informative, inspirational.

Information overload!

Wonder Cafe now, distinctive!

HG, Getout a here ... boring? The church has a hole in it? Making space for thought ... carpender antes ... a foregoing persona to allow transperation ... flighty tho'Tz? Metaphor of dais dream'n ... about former scrypts and phon ET'Ichs!

Paradox,

You have entered an enigma; some people believe thought=belief .. other believe it is process ... connecting to emote ... that would be to evolve and change, improve ... unlike institution! The moving hand of God will give you feeling on the other side ... a Paean ... in the following ....

Connection would suggest binary function ... observable different than monotheism ... which prevents people from getting a grip on themselves (comprehensile 4's) forerunner of Dantean collapse ... or Marxist Irony of dah fist that hits yah when yah sees yourself as the butte passes! It is a barrel of mon'Qies to those observing from the fringe and each and everyone of the dissonants in connection with intercourse may sit in silence for years wondering: "what happened?" They didn't understand a word of Cadeuces ... that two faced thebe in temple ... devil of a binary thinker ... even maybe multitasking ... despised by the single-sided sorts of coine ...

They don't see the underlying powers ... perhaps weaker but following ... they'll gethcha!

Hi rishi--I would say . The Church has Broken GODS first Law.-------------------------------------

	Mat 22:36	"Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?"
	Mat 22:37	And he said to him, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.
	Mat 22:38	This is the great and first commandment.
	Mat 22:39	And a second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
	Mat 22:40	On these two commandments depend all the law and the prophets."

-These Laws are throwen around here by just about every one.But not unstood by many.Dose your church show love, to other Denomintions in Christ?Will you shake hands, or have thought of a Witnesse or Catholic as a sister or brother?Would you go in there church?Or would you feel ok, to have them come to yours? -I don't care what church you go to , or if you don't go to any. If you are a Follower of Jesus Christ , you are my sister or brother . I am told ' No ordered to Love you and lift you up.The Church has failed, to understand ,we are family.There is a time coming an I think it to be soon, when even saying you are a believer in Christ , will get you death.Is it not time the church reach out in Love? An close ranks.We who have spent time on wondercafe should know . Are we that differnt?

The same as Jesus railed against - HYPOCRISY.

Obsessing over issues of ritual, time, place, buildings and material things and always trying to look so damn righteous and goody-two-shoes... you cannot have relationships, real relationships with people who are pretending.... And even "going to church" becomes an end in itself rather than a means to an end ("the end", for me, should not be about and accomplished at our death, but in new life and living and mission and service....)

Hi Happy Genius--It is nice to see you again. You'v used a word that  I noted. It reminds me of you Distinctive.

Lack of Committment seems to be an issue.  Small groups that work hard to keep the church operational, while others drop in occasionally but are scarce when real help is needed.

I'm not thinking only Sunday mornings but the many other activities that are part of church life, eg. volunteering for food bank, pastoral care, outreach....

wow!   ouch!   snap!   amen!

wow!  ok,  I'm going to be quiet now, and keep my wows to myself.

Taking the Bible as less than complete, error-free, and authoratative.

Spend less time talking about Jesus' birth and death and more time doing what he did.

the human involvement

yeah GordW, since the minister already got the snap why not the choir and the pew sitters and the organist....?  LMAO

it honestly was my first, instinctive, gut level response

Plug the Wii hole in the fabric ... prevent them from venting ...

Actually I agree, GordW

I agree with p3.

 As I just quoted on a different thread: "Everyone knows The Way, but few follow it." This quote is attributed to Buddha, but could just as easily have been said by Jesus, and probably applies to all religions, including Christianity.

Arm,

A transcendentally clear conception ... right out of nothing ... spatial conception ... of abstract nature ... something missing and rapturous ... like pure love not a thought present?

Is there another way of perceiving this ... how many wasy in an emotionally complex dimension ... o'mais ...

I like this one though I'm not sure it's all just "doing". Spend less time on theology and more on how acknowledging the presence of God/Christ and the teachings that come from Jesus and followers like Paul affect us. What we are called to do and how we are called to live. We don't have to be "doing" in a literal sense while we're in church, just thinking about what we should be doing and how we should be doing it when we leave church.

Mendalla

Hi GordW  ---your quote  ---the human involvement

Just maybe if more prayer was used like rishi suggested it would allow God to be more present in His Church Affairs and more human involvement would increase --The Churches are runing on to much human involvement now and are dying out so when plan A -- isn't working go to plan B. 

Do you really think God wants His Places of Worship failing ---it is humans that are making bad decisions in His House that is the problem in my eyes.

Peace and Blessings

The best research on this question is provided by the massive REVEA:L stydy based on surveys of 225, 000 church attenders from churches of various sizes and various denominations.  It assessed spiritual growth operationally in terms of concrete measure of love for God and humanity and found two catalysts that made the decisive difference:

(1) Meditation: i. e. daily relfection on the relevance of Scripture for the upcoming day

(2) increased clarity about what it means to develop and experience a personal mystycal relationship with Jesus Christ. 

Other importance issues like serving the ppor and needy, increased participation in church activities,  and learning what it means to become Jesus' true disciple made much less of a measurable difference to spiritual growth.

(i think there is still things to offer, its very complicated, you get thumbs)

In some ways some seem to be returning to the old way of some of the pharisical ways but in a different form through Christianity.

i feel monetary reasoning may also negativily proliferate this issue.

Spend more time living in the Spirit, teaching others the way of salvation through word and deed. Spend less time on self-centered, self-powered, pleasure-seeking activities. More evangelism, fewer white elephant sales and strawberry teas.

In Roman terms the common people don't need to know mystical stuff ... burn all the books of myth ... including the bible as it has been corrupted over the years by mortal input to give advantage to the chosen elite ... whole different clan than the humble power that remains underlying projected truth ... a hidden altruism in word ... that few would like to peer into ... they hate depth of diggin in the mire of word ... th' inking process?

And you know what Romans do to thinking men and ladys ... scrooged eM all of their gifts ... and the man questioning  purpose of his work to enrich the lord of the land? Well be was buried in the chaos caused by questioning the unknowing lord ...

In ancient Hebrew tradition of Ka Ba'aL awe ... it is a hairy thread to weave ... life ... done unconsciously to the input of mankind ... soul blown experience .... rapture? In the midst of a twinned chaos (Cadueces)  ... a medium of escape?

That would bring the bicameral mind to its knees ...

Then of course of denial ... the mind is a mystical spectra of projected levity ... or is that Levite I see glowing in the ashes ... psyche ich re erection? That's a mental construct ... of another soul?