Pretty much every religiouse person in the world cannot have their mind changed. In their heads, they are right. In my head I am right. In your head, you are probably right too. How are we all right? How do we know with no evidence to support us? why do we "know" that what an old book or story or scroll etc. sais is right? Because you pray and your prayer is answered does that make your god real? What about people who pray to other gods and, again, have their prayer answerd? Is it because of how we were brought up? Are we all right? Are we all wrong?
Can some body tell me their answers to these questions (or at least as many as they can answer)?
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Comments
Warped_Purity
We don't know what's right or
Posted on: 08/12/2009 03:49
We don't know what's right or wrong. In fact I highly doubt anyone is dead accurate. The best we can do (in my opinion) is learn from everyone and guesstimate. I always believed if we do what we feel is right, then we should be fine :P. When I was young I kept getting told "if you don't awknowledge Jesus as the son of god you'll go to hell" and that's what made me decide I wasn't going to follow any one religion, but I still get a lot of good life lessons from reading from the bible, I just also happen to get good lessons from reading up stuff from Buddha and Mohammed and so on.
Basically there is no answer to who is right and who is wrong, we just plain don't know. For all we know it's right to kill donkies by ripping their tails out and suffocating them with the severed hairs. We just have things we aren't very fond of like murder and theft. But the fact is we just don't know.
Sebb
That's pretty much how I feel
Posted on: 08/12/2009 03:58
That's pretty much how I feel too Warped_Purity. But there are people who know they are right (well they think they know). My question is more for them, i want to know how they know or can think they know that they are 100% right and every1 else is 100% wrong (i should have said that in the OP ~_^) but i like your answer :D
jon71
Faith. That might sound like
Posted on: 08/12/2009 05:40
Faith. That might sound like a cop out but there it is. It's something inside.
Sebb
But Jon, does your faith tell
Posted on: 08/12/2009 05:50
But Jon, does your faith tell you that you are right? I ask because others have faith aswell but their faith (the faith that makes them right and you wrong) conttradicts your faith (the faith that makes you right and them wrong).
sighsnootles
Sebb wrote: Pretty much every
Posted on: 08/12/2009 09:30
Pretty much every religiouse person in the world cannot have their mind changed. In their heads, they are right. In my head I am right. In your head, you are probably right too. How are we all right?
we could all be right because there is simply no possible way that we could fathom what god is capable of.
spiritbear
Sebb - It seems like you're
Posted on: 08/12/2009 09:58
Sebb - It seems like you're asking two quite different questions here: Who is right and What is right. As to the first, no one is right 100% of the time (which still includes the possibility that they are right some of the time). As for what is right, I suppose your decision on that determines what kind of person you are. If you are a loving/kind person, then decisions about what is right flow from what is kind and loving, which I believe is the same starting point that Jesus used (and also includes any of the many religions that incorporates the "Golden Rule"). On the other hand if you are a selfish/hateful person, then your decisions about what is right will be different. Society does not thrive and many suffer when there are too many of the second type, so we all have a vested interest in encouraging the first type over the second type, not matter what religion is involved. If you are worried about what religious practice to follow (does one eat pork, does one pray a prescribed times in prescribed ways, do you go to confession, do you burn incense, etc), that's partly a matter of your own choice and partly how comfortable you feel in the culture in which you were raised. Frankly, I don't think God cares about those kind of specifics. It's what in your heart that counts. And once you have decided on the basics (kindness/love vs selfishness/hate), the rest pretty well follows from there.
Concerning your point about prayer "proving" whether one's god is the "right" one, I don't believe the purpose of prayer is to ask God for "stuff". It is an opportunity to listen to God, seek guidance and search for meaning. A prayer "coming true" is usually just a coincidence and shouldn't be used as proof of anything. To paraphrase Jesus, just because it rains on an evil man's crops (even if he is praying for it) does not mean that God approves of his ways.
Arminius
Hi Sebb: I'm not "right."
Posted on: 08/12/2009 10:00
Hi Sebb:
I'm not "right." I'm into experiential spirituality, and the interpretations or explanations of my spiritual experiences are, at all times, speculative and/or metaphorical.
You seem to regard "faith" as doctrinal only. But there is an experiential side to faith that is beyond doctrine. Spiritual experience is also the root of all religious doctrines. Differences in mythology, teachings, and doctrines are due to culturally and individually unique interpretations of spiritual experience.
Spiritual experience seems to be the common ground on which all religions could meet.
If we regarded our religious expressions as artistic, then different expressions would not only be welcomed but become necessary artistic differences, and we could joyously share our respectice creations with each other.
rishi
To quote your avitar:
Posted on: 08/12/2009 14:08
To quote your avitar: "Religion is true when it brings an end to suffering."
BrettA
rishi wrote: To quote your
Posted on: 08/12/2009 14:25
To quote your avitar: "Religion is true when it brings an end to suffering."
Anything is true when it brings an end to suffering. Sadly, that makes nothing universally true, methinks.
Witch
My faith is right... for me.
Posted on: 08/12/2009 14:34
My faith is right... for me. Your results may differ.
Seriously though, I have difficulty believeing that God is so incompetent that He/She can only manage to convince a minority of people of what the "right" way to worship is.
The best explanation I can come up with is that God simply doesn't much care what name we choose to call Him/Her by, what name we give the practice of our faith, or what rituals we choose as a vehicle for our faith. An Omnipotent God should be able to easily wear whatever face we require at any time, in order for us to relate to a God to big for human comprehension.
I suspect it saddens God greatly when His/Her children squabble and kill each other over which face is the only "true" one.
spiritbear
Witch: I suspect that God is
Posted on: 08/12/2009 15:19
Witch: I suspect that God is also saddened when God's children kill each other over the one "true" economic system or who their "true" leader should be. In fact such things are just masks for the real reasons for humanity's conflicts: power, wealth or land. When faith promotes "right" relationships (i.e., respectful, peaceful, non-exploitative), as many faiths do, that to me would be another test of the "rightness" of one's faith.
rishi
BrettA wrote: rishi wrote: To
Posted on: 08/12/2009 15:31
To quote your avitar: "Religion is true when it brings an end to suffering."
Anything is true when it brings an end to suffering. Sadly, that makes nothing universally true, methinks.
... except for the original statement.
edizer
Instead of answering your
Posted on: 08/12/2009 15:46
Instead of answering your question, let me just share some thoughts.
You may have known of the saying: "Beauty lies in the eyes of the beholder." And so in the same manner, what is right or what is wrong depends on where you are, and what your concepts or beliefs are.
In your particular case, whatever is in accordance with your Buddhist beliefs must be right, otherwise it is not right.
Even among those professing Christianity, there are different interpretations of what is right and what is wrong, although, as Christianity is based on the Holy Bible, then the same Bible must be the sole basis to determine what is right and what is not right.
It is generally accepted that the word RELIGION comes from RE + LIGARE - meaning to bind, to tie, as in ligament. On a wider concept, it includes a series of beliefs and corresponding practices about worship of a supernatural being usually called GOD, and the piety in complying with all the required services.
If, on one hand, you may want to try to study and compare most, if not all, of the religions now, you may still have to make a pre-determined set of standards or qualifications to come up to your desired results.
If you are, however, interested in Christianity, then I may be able to share with you some of the doctrines that I know of from the Holy Bible.
Kappa
Whose suffering are we
Posted on: 08/12/2009 15:47
Whose suffering are we talking about when we talk about its end here? And what sort of suffering? Some people would rather be happy and think they are right than live in a constant state of uncertainty and questioning in search of objective truth. In the first case, the ones who believes they are right and are happy do not appear to be suffering. Are they somehow still suffering? On what level, and who decides?
Witch
edizer wrote: If, on one
Posted on: 08/12/2009 15:55
If, on one hand, you may want to try to study and compare most, if not all, of the religions now, you may still have to make a pre-determined set of standards or qualifications to come up to your desired results.
If you are, however, interested in Christianity, then I may be able to share with you some of the doctrines that I know of from the Holy Bible.
I'm afraid I'm not sure I understand completely. For my own clarification, are you suggesting that Christianity is not a religion?
Arminius
Kappa wrote: Whose suffering
Posted on: 08/12/2009 16:20
Whose suffering are we talking about when we talk about its end here? And what sort of suffering? Some people would rather be happy and think they are right than live in a constant state of uncertainty and questioning in search of objective truth. In the first case, the ones who believes they are right and are happy do not appear to be suffering. Are they somehow still suffering? On what level, and who decides?
Well, Kappa, I think the sufferer decides whether or not s/he is suffering, and whether s/he wants to go beyond it. And the sufferer also determines when s/he is beyond it.
But I believe suffering is also "with-suffering," a.k.a. compassion, and no human is totally beyond suffering as long as others suffer. That's why enlightened people who have gone beyond suffering feel compelled to do their utmost to help others beyond suffering.
Modern Girl
I interpret the main question
Posted on: 08/12/2009 16:46
I interpret the main question here as "why do some people assert they are right moreso than others? How can they justify it?" (I hope that's the question). My answer to this would be that some people have a greater need to believe than others. Some people have a greater fear of death, and therefore have a greater need for a belief in an afterlife, or another life, or what have you. These people are able to stand behind their beliefs despite obstacles that are hurdle at them, because they have a greater connection with those beliefs.
Now, the other question that is somewhat related (and was my first impression) is how can we know who is right? No religion out there says it's wrong, just like no politican says they are the bad choice. Everyone wants you to believe in them. In politics, we trust in the politican who matches our values. In religion, a lot of people do the same. But if you want to get an objective truth, I don't believe that is possible. That's why I'm agnostic and a Unitarian Universalist.
Unitarian Universalists embrace diversity of beliefs and accept that everyone might believe something different. They aren't worried about who has it right, or who is going to win the game. They are more concerned with sportsmanship, how we play, err, how we live our lives. Witch, you sound like you would agree with a lot of Unitarian Universalist thoughts.
Mendalla
Modern Girl wrote: Unitarian
Posted on: 08/12/2009 17:13
Unitarian Universalists embrace diversity of beliefs and accept that everyone might believe something different. They aren't worried about who has it right, or who is going to win the game. They are more concerned with sportsmanship, how we play, err, how we live our lives. Witch, you sound like you would agree with a lot of Unitarian Universalist thoughts.
Damn right. That was my answer put much better than I was going to put it, Modern Girl.
I'm also a UU and probably an agnostic as well (I'm wrestling with labels right now).
Josephine
I'm reading The Battle For
Posted on: 08/12/2009 18:10
I'm reading The Battle For God right now. The writer says that whenever a nation or tribe gors through cultural changes rapidly, they collectively get scared, and hang onto religious constucts with a death grip. They are anxious and need the assurance that we're all on the same page! At the same time, there are people with progressive vision, who, inevittably, come into conflict with the frightened ones. I've tried a new ploy since reading this book. When a frightened one needs me to join them in their beliefs, I just reflectively reply to them. "Things are changing so fast, I know! You must be so scared." "It is scary......I think I'd go crazy, if I didn't just get into God's plan for my life and enjoy it as much as I can!" Using their jargon gives them relief....they de-escalate. They start feeling safe around you. They will violate your feelings and boundaries.....but that's because they're excalated emotionally with fear. There have been a few bi-polar people I've run into too, who can be exasperating. Anyway, de-escalating the fear of the frightened ones has been successful move on my part.
Arminius
Mendalla wrote: Modern Girl
Posted on: 08/12/2009 23:00
Unitarian Universalists embrace diversity of beliefs and accept that everyone might believe something different. They aren't worried about who has it right, or who is going to win the game. They are more concerned with sportsmanship, how we play, err, how we live our lives. Witch, you sound like you would agree with a lot of Unitarian Universalist thoughts.
Damn right. That was my answer put much better than I was going to put it, Modern Girl.
I'm also a UU and probably an agnostic as well (I'm wrestling with labels right now).
Hi Mendalla: you forgot the space bween the "a" and the "g." Aren't you a Gnostic rather than agnostic?
Kappa
That was a thoughtful answer
Posted on: 08/14/2009 08:05
That was a thoughtful answer Arminius. I appreciate your wisdom, as usual.
Aresthena
There is no right and no
Posted on: 08/14/2009 08:35
There is no right and no wrong religion. There is ridiculous and sense-full. Does every religion make sense? Some do, and some do not.
Religion, however, can be very enslaving. In some you have absolutely no personal choice. A religion only makes sense when it does not enslave you and gives you the option to discover the answers to all your questions.
There is no right Religion because we do not really know what is true, do we? Most of us are as ignorant as the people who believed that the Earth was flat and that the Sun revolved around it.
There is no wrong religion because of the same reasons.
Anyone can believe whatever he or she wants, as long as it hurts none.
Sebb
Thanks for your posts
Posted on: 08/14/2009 10:26
Thanks for your posts everyone ^_^ the reason I asked is when i'm not reading P&P&Z right now i'm also reading some stuff by Friedrich Nietzsche and it got me thinking (I'm at The Religiouse Nature in Beyond Good and Evil) so thanks again ^_^
spice
some times suffering gives us
Posted on: 08/15/2009 17:03
some times suffering gives us more faith
Aresthena
Spice, I wouldn't say that
Posted on: 08/15/2009 17:34
Spice, I wouldn't say that suffering gives us more faith, per say, but maybe it gives us more hope. Faith can sometimes be easy to kill. Hope, however, always remains silently buried deep inside the heart, even when it is perceived gone.
spice
right hope love and
Posted on: 08/15/2009 17:38
right hope love and forgivness is faith! and if it wasnt deep in our souls it would be
Sebb
Aresthena wrote: Faith can
Posted on: 08/15/2009 18:01
Faith can sometimes be easy to kill. Hope, however, always remains silently buried deep inside the heart, even when it is perceived gone.
I like that :D I may end up quoting you sometime if ya wouldn't mind ^_^
spice
faith just
Posted on: 08/15/2009 18:20
faith just is...................... and if it isnt you dont have it
Happy Genius
rishi wrote: To quote your
Posted on: 08/15/2009 21:06
To quote your avitar: "Religion is true when it brings an end to suffering."
Yes! (I'm about 2,900,000) short of saying this, but
om mani padme hum
Sebb
Happy Genius, that's my fave
Posted on: 08/15/2009 21:22
Happy Genius, that's my fave mantra >_< ("om mani padme hum") I have it writen in Tibetan on my school binder :3
chansen
Aresthena wrote:There is no
Posted on: 08/15/2009 22:19
What religion "makes sense"? By what criteria does one religion make more sense than another?
Ahhh...OK. So you're redefining "makes sense". Which religions "enslave", and which do not?
I'm perfectly in line with you there.
spice
peace in your heart and
Posted on: 08/15/2009 22:24
peace in your heart and contentment in life will bring you to the higher power that just is........................everything,(god)
chansen
spice wrote: peace in your
Posted on: 08/15/2009 22:37
peace in your heart and contentment in life will bring you to the higher power that just is........................everything,(god)
I thought it was the other way 'round? Doesn't God lead to peace and contentment? It's so confusing. Does belief in an imaginary friend lead to happiness, or does happiness lead to belief in an imaginary friend?
spice
thats it friend ying yang its
Posted on: 08/15/2009 22:47
thats it friend ying yang its both or nothing and all
rishi
Sebb wrote: Thanks for your
Posted on: 08/16/2009 12:34
Thanks for your posts everyone ^_^ the reason I asked is when i'm not reading P&P&Z right now i'm also reading some stuff by Friedrich Nietzsche and it got me thinking (I'm at The Religiouse Nature in Beyond Good and Evil) so thanks again ^_^
That's probably one of the best answers to the question: right religion comes from a place that is beyond good and evil.
InannaWhimsey
Sebb, wrote: Pretty much
Posted on: 08/16/2009 14:01
Pretty much every religiouse person in the world cannot have their mind changed.
It's not just religious people.
http://www.world-science.net/othernews/090702_opinion.htm
Reality, by itself, isn't a monobloc of existence, in that it isn't static & unchanging and observable over its entire area of existence. To deal with this, we have evolved to be able to break that uncertainty down into meaningful bits, using such things as language and our neurology (our brains are really, to a large extent, filters to weed out the chaos into an understandable form).
So we, day by day, live in a reality that is chaotic, hard-to-pin-down, multi-valued, but we experience it as static, single-valued, and understandable. And we think that our world, that created by our neurology and the many tools that derive from that (which includes language), is the Real World. Unchangable. Discrete. Static. We confuse the map with the territory.
Even the word 'is' serves to give Certainty. A tree 'is' a Tree. A chair 'is' a Chair. And so forth.
It has been shown, in many ways, that people have trouble dealing with chaos. It is...uncomfortable. So, in a great way, Certainty is desired.
Because of how we have evolved, everyone (and I mean everyone) is susceptible to propaganda. No matter how smart you are, you can be convinced of something. We all operate by observable and reliable rules that can and are being utilized by schmart people, for both good and ill (and neutral effects).
I think this isn't a modern thing, but a rather ancient thing -- ferinstance, al-Hasan ibn-al-Sabbah would use Hashish to inculcate new 'recruits' into his tribe of Devoted killers while showing them the future reward of The Garden of Earthly Delights (it is from Hashish that the word Assassin derives...)
There have been many, many attempts to show people the role they play in the construction of their reality.
Today is a great time to be alive, because right now is the best time to be able to teach people aboot something like this, instead of hiding it (which still happens) or giving it to a minor elite (which still happens).
Just a Self-writing poem,
Inannawhimsey
bygraceiam
Hello everyone God bless
Posted on: 08/16/2009 14:40
Hello everyone God bless You...
I just finished with my answer of this on my asking discernment help...this is what I have learned...
Although I am a firm believer in the Father, the Son Christ, the Holy Spirit & the angels who carry His will this is what I have learned when it comes to this question...
The Truth can only be Truth to each man/woman according to their inner understanding , because we have found a certain Truth or a Certain Path that is right , we should never endeavor to force our sister/brothers to walk this way..The wise man/woman , the Seekers after Truth say to others upon the Journey this is what I have Seen, this is what I have Heard, this is what I have Experienced..but not all Souls who are taking life's experiences have the same thought for some need to learn the ways of Simplicity, some learn by Sacrifice, for some the way of Creation & Beauty, for others the pathway lies in the giving of themselves to others in Sacrifice & Healing Service, of some the way of Silence, I believe there are individual ways of the Soul, some will find understanding in Christian Churches, some by the wise ways of Chinese & Buddha Teachings, some through listening to teachers who teach in small quiet rooms of Spiritualism..
For each Soul & Seeker there is a way which is right to them..I believe we who do have some degree of understanding should share with others what we have learned, I do believe this wisdom & understanding comes from within all persons seeking & searching for God...
Love the Lord God with all Your Heart , with all Your Soul, with all Your Strength, with all Your Mind and Love Others as You want to be Loved...
If we do this in our lives then we carry the Divine Love and Will Of God in our lives in many different ways and paths...
IJL: BJ
GRR
BrettA wrote: rishi wrote: To
Posted on: 08/16/2009 15:06
To quote your avitar: "Religion is true when it brings an end to suffering."
Anything is true when it brings an end to suffering. Sadly, that makes nothing universally true, methinks.
I don't see anything sad about that. I think that its a realization that's necessary to continued growth in wisdom, spirtiual, secular or in any other sphere. Layers and shadings and nuances - what some call the tapestry of existence.
GRR
Kappa wrote: Whose suffering
Posted on: 08/16/2009 15:09
Whose suffering are we talking about when we talk about its end here? And what sort of suffering? Some people would rather be happy and think they are right than live in a constant state of uncertainty and questioning in search of objective truth. In the first case, the ones who believes they are right and are happy do not appear to be suffering. Are they somehow still suffering? On what level, and who decides?
Which is why, for the people you describe - those needing certainty - a black and white religion ends suffering, and is, therefore, "right religion" for them. For those who would feel imprisoned by such an approach to belief, it is anything but.
spice
i think any thing that brings
Posted on: 08/16/2009 20:08
i think any thing that brings you higher in your spirtual awarness is the rt religon
Alex
You know you are in the right
Posted on: 08/16/2009 23:26
You know you are in the right religion, when it makes you so angry that you curse it on a regular basis. If you are not angry with it then shows you do not really care about it, and if you are in the right religion you should care very much about it IMHO. Either that or that you have reach a level of couciousness where you belong to everyone.
spice
exactly and wat ever it takes
Posted on: 08/16/2009 20:39
exactly and wat ever it takes to get there is the rt one
chansen
Alex wrote:You know you are
Posted on: 08/17/2009 00:50
That makes me wonder when you know you've married the right person. After they've taken out a restraining order?
ruth001
I know that my religion is
Posted on: 08/17/2009 03:07
I know that my religion is right for me. I would never presume to decide for you.
spice
ruth001 wrote: I know that my
Posted on: 08/17/2009 05:08
I know that my religion is right for me. I would never presume to decide for you.
Happy Genius
Sebb wrote: Pretty much every
Posted on: 08/17/2009 07:20
Pretty much every religiouse person in the world cannot have their mind changed. In their heads, they are right. In my head I am right. In your head, you are probably right too. How are we all right?
We are all right! It's a planet-wide search: For enlightenment, for unity, for the Buddah-nature, for an undrstanding of God, and Her will....
In Lagos the preacher sermonizes from the Koran and the Bible...the congragation is mixed Muslem/Christian.
It's a begining, a spark...
Are we all wrong?
I think it very unlikely.
Some people like chocolate, some strawberry, I like a LOT of flavors...:-)
Cheers!
Happy Genius
Sebb wrote: Happy Genius,
Posted on: 08/17/2009 07:41
Happy Genius, that's my fave mantra >_< ("om mani padme hum") I have it writen in Tibetan on my school binder :3
At midlanding of my stairs (which I climb at least ten times a day) I have placed a small statue of you..(.if you look exactly like the photo
..) And say it going up and down while touching it...I confess this is not so much a recognition that there are spiritual ruminations to be made...a more secular thought...of respect for those who dip more deeply than I into the implications....I recently read that every sylable contains a part and the sentence the whole.teaching of Buddah.
Happy Genius
Warped-purity. I love it when
Posted on: 08/17/2009 08:00
Warped-purity. I love it when before my eyes the English language is enhanced by a much-needed phrase. The entire English-speaking world is in your debt.
Warped-purity. Perfect. (5 seconds of Deep Think) Come to think about it, it's a phrase St. Paul would have used when speaking of himself.. But St. Paul is soooooo yesterday. :(-:0
Warped_Purity
Happy Genius
Posted on: 08/17/2009 14:43
Warped-purity. I love it when before my eyes the English language is enhanced by a much-needed phrase. The entire English-speaking world is in your debt.
Warped-purity. Perfect. (5 seconds of Deep Think) Come to think about it, it's a phrase St. Paul would have used when speaking of himself.. But St. Paul is soooooo yesterday. :(-:0
I don't quite get what you're saying :P elaborate?