Arminius's picture

Arminius

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If you were free to create a perfect belief, what would it be?

If you were free to create a perfect belief, would you stay with your present religion? Perhaps amend it a little, or a lot? Or choose a different religion, and amend it? Or create an entirely new religion?

 

Among the existing religions, is there a best, ideal or perfect religion or belief system?

 

Let's hear it! Fire away!

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chansen's picture

chansen

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I'll copy my better answer

I'll copy my better answer from the "Who is Christ?" thread:

 

If I was to create the perfect belief, I would write the book of that belief.  I would want to be in the Joseph Smith or L. Ron Hubbard position.  I would not be content to be "Pope".  I would want the money flowing towards me, not to mention all the most attractive women.  I would need the abilities of a con man or evangelist (same thing) to spread the faith and centralize the power in one location.  I would probably choose Whistler, and make skiiing my daily commune with God, Xenu, or whoever I invented as the deity or spirit that I talked to on a daily basis.

SG's picture

SG

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Arminius,   It would not be a

Arminius,

 

It would not be a perfect belief if I could think it.

 

To me, religious practice it is about relationship with Mystery. I changed religions not because anything was wrong with the one I had. Millions of people relate to God fine that way. My relationship simply was not working. I needed a different way of relating. The relationship can stall and you either find a way to continue it or you end it. I chose to maintain the relationship. I simply go in a different door, use different words....

 

There is always one that is ideal, perfect... for you.

 

Some simply give up on relationships because they have not met the right one or they got burned in the past.

Arminius's picture

Arminius

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Very good,

Very good, chansen!

 

Mountains traditonally are the seats of deities, if not actual deities, and "climbing a mountain" is a traditional metaphor for spiritual seeking. Well, what goes up must come down, and for you the coming down is the greater spiritual thrill.

 

So who will join chansen's Whistler religion?

 

Right now, there appear to be quite a few adherants.

footprints165's picture

footprints165

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The perfect belief is the one

The perfect belief is the one that motivates a person to live as good and as honnest a life as possible. The perfect belief is the one that allows a person to be true to his or her self while respecting others' right to be true to their self. The perfect belief is one that respects individuality without being selfish, that honours honnesty without being judgmental.

It doesn't matter how that belief is manifested, whether through religious faith or scientific scepticism or somewhere in between... what matters is believing that we are each unique and beautiful in our own way, and that right and wrong is relative to how people feel about an experience, and we are each entitled to our own experiences and deciding what is right and wrong based on how we feel about our own actions and the effects they have on other people.  

 

Arminius's picture

Arminius

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StevieG wrote: Arminius,   It

StevieG wrote:

Arminius,

 

It would not be a perfect belief if I could think it.

 

There is always one that is ideal, perfect... for you.

 

 

Not a perfect religion but a perfect answer, Stevie!

Tyson's picture

Tyson

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Arminius wrote:  So who will

Arminius wrote:

 So who will join chansen's Whistler religion?

 

Right now, there appear to be quite a few adherants.

 

I would rather have six very large hemorrhoids and an hourly attack of acid reflux. I'm just sayin'.

chansen's picture

chansen

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consumingfire V3.0

consumingfire V3.0 wrote:

Arminius wrote:

 So who will join chansen's Whistler religion?

 

Right now, there appear to be quite a few adherants.

 

I would rather have six very large hemorrhoids and an hourly attack of acid reflux. I'm just sayin'.

 

That's a very odd fetish you have.

waterfall's picture

waterfall

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Chocolate and whip cream

Chocolate and whip cream would be gods.

Elanorgold's picture

Elanorgold

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Well I don't create what I

Well I don't create what I believe. I believe things because they seem plauseable or are obvious. I believe what comes to me, I don't choose it. So I don't choose religions either. I am me and on a path of my own discovery, led by no one person or thing.

 

I think the ideal way to be is independant and free.

redbaron338's picture

redbaron338

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Not too sure what the whole

Not too sure what the whole thing would look like yet, but if I put together a creed for the perfect belief, one major paragraph would be devoted to chocolate being a legitemate food group.

Geo's picture

Geo

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Arminius: I just want to make

Arminius: I just want to make sure I understand your question.

 

Are you asking about the creation of our beliefs about reality, or of the changing of reality itself? For instance, as a Christian, if I do not like the doctrine of hell, could this creation of 'belief' you are asking about enable me to get rid of the doctrine, and that it would then be so, if I so desired?

Arminius's picture

Arminius

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Well, Geo, who knows what the

Well, Geo, who knows what the real reality is like? I don't.

 

But our conceptual reality is real for most of us. So, if you don't believe in hell, then hell does not exist—for you. Whether or not it ultimately exists remains to be seen.

 

Actually, I'm talking about creating a belief about reality, not about creating reality itself. Creating reality itself would require a different thread.

Witch's picture

Witch

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I'm not sure I'd want a

I'm not sure I'd want a "perfect" belief.

 

Perfection, absolute truth, onlyism.... these are all traps  that cripple the mind and cause strife and hatred.

 

Maybe that's why God left it a little bit vague, and allows us to see the Divine in our own way?

Arminius's picture

Arminius

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Yes, Witch, I quite agree. I

Yes, Witch, I quite agree. I think religious conceptualization and expression is, or ought to be, a continuous creative/artistic process: something that we, individually and collectively, continuously create, re-create, and co-create.

 

My ideal religion would be that which is common to virtually all religions, and practiced even by the non-religious: Meditation. My ideal Church would be the Church of Universal Meditators. The way we conceptualize our meditational experiences, and express them outwardly, would be individually and collectively unique creations which we'd readily and joyously share with each other.

 

Religion as art.

Geo's picture

Geo

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Arminius wrote: But

Arminius wrote:

But our conceptual reality is real for most of us. So, if you don't believe in hell, then hell does not exist—for you. Whether or not it ultimately exists remains to be seen.

The above statement seems contradictory. Apparently, I can alter your so-called 'conceptual reality' to suit my own desires; for instance, if I don't like the idea of hell, all I have to do is disbelieve in it, and it becomes so. But to what extent? Could you define 'conceptual' reality, and how it relates to actual reality?

 

What if I believed that the Earth is flat? Would it become so, in reality - for me?

Witch's picture

Witch

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Geo wrote: Apparently, I

Geo wrote:

Apparently, I can alter your so-called 'conceptual reality' to suit my own desires; for instance, if I don't like the idea of hell, all I have to do is disbelieve in it, and it becomes so. But to what extent? Could you define 'conceptual' reality, and how it relates to

actual

 reality?

 

What if I believed that the Earth is flat? Would it become so, in reality - for me?

 

The Earth is not flat. That is a matter of fact. What we believe about it will not change it.

 

Hell is a belief, not fact. Whether we believe in it or not does change our conceptual view of the world, and that view can,  and does change quite often.

 

That is the extent.

Arminius's picture

Arminius

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Hi Geo:   Conceptual reality

Hi Geo:

 

Conceptual reality is our world of concepts.

 

The real reality is the objective, ontological reality, as it really is.

 

Most people, however, confuse the two, and believe that their subjective and conceptual reality is the objective, ontological reality.

 

Some of our subjective concepts are being objectively verfied by science, as Witch just pointed out, but a large part of human experience and conceptualization is not objectively verifiable and remains within the realm of arbitrarily created conceptualization.

 

If a believer believes any or all of his concepts to be absolutely true, then they are so—for him. Not ultimately or necessarily so.

 

I think and feel that reality is in an ultimate state of synthesis which, in its actual is-ness, can only be experienced. That's why I consider the pure unconceptualized experience of reality as utlimately truthful.

Geo's picture

Geo

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Witch wrote: Hell is a

Witch wrote:

Hell is a belief, not fact. Whether we believe in it or not does change our conceptual view of the world, and that view can,  and does change quite often.

You said yourself that some beliefs that cannot be proven (and here I assume you mean empirically - by the scientific method) to be objectively true, may still be true. Thus, Hell could be a fact, as Jesus teaches in the Bible - it is simply not one which can be proven according to the scientific method. And on that note, there are plenty of things which we accept to be true without such 'proof' - science itself being one of them.

InannaWhimsey's picture

InannaWhimsey

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The map is not the

The map is not the territory.

 

A map that would be 100% accurate of the territory would have to be so big, that it included both the map AND the map of the territory.  So it would be useless.

 

Stop trying for the one perfect belief that is without taint, without struggle, without thought.

 

When you stop thinking, you are as good as dead.

 

Try to learn how to read different maps and see what new lands, monsters, devas, weather, and such come into view and which ones...disappear.

 

And your signature is on each and every map that you can see.

 

But as for a perfect belief (going into 'What If' mode here):  life is a carnivale, which is an endless parade and dance and party that is participatory and the more participants, the better it becomes.  Oh, and stop trying to be an individual, we're all part of stardust anyway.

 

Just a Self-writing poem,

InannaWhimsey

Geo's picture

Geo

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Arminius - It seems to me

Arminius - It seems to me that a dilemma arises out of your belief. First of all, you claim that the 'real' objective reality cannot be known. However, you could not possibly know this to be true unless you yourself claimed to see the 'real' objective reality regarding the matter.

 

Second, it is the 'real' objective reality that people should be striving to know, shouldn't it be? This is certainly true of certain teachings in say, Islam or Christianity.

 

I'm wondering if you could apply your belief to this (real) scenario. If a person believes that there is one God, and another that there are many individual 'gods', and another that 'god' is in all things, and still another that no 'god' or 'gods' exist at all, what are the implications of your belief regarding this matter? Can they all be simulataneously be 'right' about the 'real' reality? Indeed, in some of these traditions a persons' very salvation depends on their beliefs about reality (ie. that there is one God, etc.).

 

So far it seems your differentiation between 'conceptual reality' and objective reality establishes an 'imaginary' world which we create to our liking, in which it somehow doesn't matter whether this particular 'world' conforms to the 'real' reality. Thus, the use of the word 'reality' following the word 'conceptual' is really a misnomer, since it is no 'reality' at all. Perhaps other terms, such as 'subjective experience' or 'imaginary world' could be used.

Geo's picture

Geo

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Consider the terms 'sane' and

Consider the terms 'sane' and 'insane'. We would grant that to be the former is preferable to the latter. Why?

 

A person who is said to be sane, is one who has an adequate, balanced, and reasoned grasp on 'reality'. Conversely, a person who is said to be insane (and will likely and hopefully be locked up) is one who is 'out of touch' with reality. They may believe some things to be true, ie that they are a tree, or a coin, or a sparkplug, when in fact they are not, because their beliefs simply do not conform to how things really are.

Tyson's picture

Tyson

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chansen wrote: consumingfire

chansen wrote:

consumingfire V3.0 wrote:

Arminius wrote:

 So who will join chansen's Whistler religion?

 

Right now, there appear to be quite a few adherants.

 

I would rather have six very large hemorrhoids and an hourly attack of acid reflux. I'm just sayin'.

 

That's a very odd fetish you have.

 

O.K. Just the acid reflux, then

GRR's picture

GRR

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Arminius wrote: Among

Arminius wrote:

Among the existing religions, is there a best, ideal or perfect religion or belief system?

I'm with the gang that says "no such thing as perfection" of course.

 

Although I kinda like chansen's idea, (especially the L.Ron Hubbard slant. Maybe we could get together. Like Hubbard, I have a scifi mythology already worked out. I just need a good marketing man. You any good at that hansen? 60/50 split on the women and you're welcome to all the skiing)

 

uh, where was I?..... oh yeah ....  if I were to formulate a spiritual approach, it would be one of continuous improvement. the only requirement being that whatever doctrine/creed one used as a guide be examined every quarter and if one could not find a way to improve/hone it, based on what had been learned in the previous three months, it would have to be thrown out entirely.

Ichthys's picture

Ichthys

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Read the Bible and pray.

Read the Bible and pray. Jesus will show you the right belief. I don't believe that you can or should mix something up out of all religions just to make it comfortable for you. Well at least not as a Christian.

 

In my case, the Bible is my only base.

oui's picture

oui

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 Maybe the perfect religion

 Maybe the perfect religion is no religion.  Throw out everything we think we know about spirituality to make room for God to fill the space.

Arminius's picture

Arminius

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Hi Geo:   First off, I don't

Hi Geo:

 

First off, I don't know anything with absolute certainty. I'm with Socrates: "I know that I don't know." Whatever I say is either speculative or metaphorical or both.

 

But I'm a mystic, and I feel reality to be in a unitive state of synthesis. And I experience unitive love and unitive awareness whenever I experience this state, and I have experienced it so frequently during my meditations that it has carried over into my waking consciousness and I feel it more or less all the time.

 

I fully well realize that the above is a conceptual and speculative statement. If I were to express my my mystical feelings without using words, I would do this:

 

From my mystical experiences I speculate that reality is in an ultimate state of synthesis, and I speculate that synthesis is the absolute and ultimate truth. I further speculate that any analysis of the cosmic synthesis is necessarily relativistic (relative to the viewpoint of the observer) because it necessarily has to proceed from a particular viewpoint, which is arbitrarily chosen by the observer. And I speculate that the relativeness we observe is not in reality itself but a necessary aspect of the method of analysis. And I agree with you that there is an absolutely true, objective reality. I do, however, speculate that the obsolutely true objective reality is in a state of synthesis, and that any analysis thereof is necessarily relativistic.

 

I also speculate—and mathematical logic supports this speculation—that the relative truth of the analysis proves the absolute truth of the synthesis truthful.

 

In other words, I speculate that the absolutely true objective reality is a synthesis, and that any analysis thereof is necessarily speculative, metaphorical, and relativistic.

 

Including mine!

Arminius's picture

Arminius

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oui wrote:  Maybe the perfect

oui wrote:

 Maybe the perfect religion is no religion.  Throw out everything we think we know about spirituality to make room for God to fill the space.

 

Oui, oui, I full agree!

oui's picture

oui

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And when we are filled with

And when we are filled with God, maybe we'll be able recognize that same fullness of God in everything God has created,  and we will begin to nurture all Creation with the same love we feel when God fills ourself.

Ichthys's picture

Ichthys

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oui wrote:  Maybe the perfect

oui wrote:

 Maybe the perfect religion is no religion.  Throw out everything we think we know about spirituality to make room for God to fill the space.

What about Jesus?

Happy Genius's picture

Happy Genius

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Arminius wrote:   First off,

Arminius wrote:

 

First off, I don't know anything with absolute certainty. I'm with Socrates: "I know that I don't know." Whatever I say is either speculative or metaphorical or both.

 

Are your certain of that?

Arminius wrote:

 

But I'm a mystic, and I feel reality to be in a unitive state of synthesis.

Buddah: All things are part of another. All things are in a continual state of flux, all things are related.

Cosmic Consciousness, the Vedas, The Gospel of Thomas, The Sufi Dervish, The Tao Da Ching,

Quantum Mechanics and my poetry...ALL

Say essentially what you repeat .

My Dire Nasty Negativism: You keep saying "It's so nice in this tent! This tent is wonderful! It's warm in my tent" --but you don't mention where the zipper is.

Meditation aint works.

(My tent has buttons.......and Charlie here, says that he'll match your meditation and raise you one.)

Cordually, if Ego-filledly

Oh.

Arminius wrote:

  If I were to express my my mystical feelings without using words, I would do this:

Well, yeah, butand to those whofrom a viewpoint make peopleas well as

I also speculate—and mathematical logic supports this speculation—

any analysis

Along thse lines is fun, enjoyable and wont make you fat.

 

LBmuskoka's picture

LBmuskoka

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Personally, I have no desire

Personally, I have no desire to reinvent the wheel....


Some "Ethic of Reciprocity" passages from the religious texts of various religions and secular beliefs:

Bahá'í Faith: "Ascribe not to any soul that which thou wouldst not have ascribed to thee, and say not that which thou doest not." "Blessed is he who preferreth his brother before himself." Baha'u'llah

"And if thine eyes be turned towards justice, choose thou for thy neighbour that which thou choosest for thyself." Epistle to the Son of the Wolf

Brahmanism: "This is the sum of Dharma [duty]: Do naught unto others which would cause you pain if done to you". Mahabharata, 5:1517 "
 

Buddhism: "...a state that is not pleasing or delightful to me, how could I inflict that upon another?" Samyutta NIkaya v. 353

Hurt not others in ways that you yourself would find hurtful." Udana-Varga 5:18
 

Christianity: "Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets." Matthew 7:12, King James Version.

"And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise." Luke 6:31, King James Version.

"...and don't do what you hate...", Gospel of Thomas 6. The Gospel of Thomas is one of about 40 gospels that circulated among the early Christian movement, but which never made it into the Christian Scriptures (New Testament).

 

Confucianism: "Do not do to others what you do not want them to do to you" Analects 15:23

"Tse-kung asked, 'Is there one word that can serve as a principle of conduct for life?' Confucius replied, 'It is the word 'shu' -- reciprocity. Do not impose on others what you yourself do not desire.'" Doctrine of the Mean 13.3

"Try your best to treat others as you would wish to be treated yourself, and you will find that this is the shortest way to benevolence." Mencius VII.A.4

Ancient Egyptian: "Do for one who may do for you, that you may cause him thus to do." The Tale of the Eloquent Peasant, 109 - 110 Translated by R.B. Parkinson. The original dates to circa 1800 BCE and may be the earliest version of the Epic of Reciprocity ever written. 3

Hinduism: This is the sum of duty: do not do to others what would cause pain if done to you. Mahabharata 5:1517

Humanism: "(5) Humanists acknowledge human interdependence, the need for mutual respect and the kinship of all humanity."

"(11) Humanists affirm that individual and social problems can only be resolved by means of human reason, intelligent effort, critical thinking joined with compassion and a spirit of empathy for all living beings. " 4

"Don't do things you wouldn't want to have done to you, British Humanist Society. 3

Islam: "None of you [truly] believes until he wishes for his brother what he wishes for himself." Number 13 of Imam "Al-Nawawi's Forty Hadiths." 5

 

Jainism: "Therefore, neither does he [a sage] cause violence to others nor does he make others do so." Acarangasutra 5.101-2.

"In happiness and suffering, in joy and grief, we should regard all creatures as we regard our own self." Lord Mahavira, 24th Tirthankara

"A man should wander about treating all creatures as he himself would be treated. "Sutrakritanga 1.11.33

Judaism: "...thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.", Leviticus 19:18
"What is hateful to you, do not to your fellow man. This is the law: all the rest is commentary." Talmud, Shabbat 31a.
"And what you hate, do not do to any one." Tobit 4:15 6

Native American Spirituality: "Respect for all life is the foundation." The Great Law of Peace.
"All things are our relatives; what we do to everything, we do to ourselves. All is really One." Black Elk
"Do not wrong or hate your neighbor. For it is not he who you wrong, but yourself." Pima proverb.

Roman Pagan Religion: "The law imprinted on the hearts of all men is to love the members of society as themselves."

Shinto: "The heart of the person before you is a mirror. See there your own form" Munetada Kurozumi
"Be charitable to all beings, love is the representative of God." Ko-ji-ki Hachiman Kasuga

Sikhism: Compassion-mercy and religion are the support of the entire world". Japji Sahib
"Don't create enmity with anyone as God is within everyone." Guru Arjan Devji 259
"No one is my enemy, none a stranger and everyone is my friend." Guru Arjan Dev : AG 1299

Sufism: "The basis of Sufism is consideration of the hearts and feelings of others. If you haven't the will to gladden someone's heart, then at least beware lest you hurt someone's heart, for on our path, no sin exists but this." Dr. Javad Nurbakhsh, Master of the Nimatullahi Sufi Order.

 

Taoism: "Regard your neighbor's gain as your own gain, and your neighbor's loss as your own loss." T'ai Shang Kan Ying P'ien.
"The sage has no interest of his own, but takes the interests of the people as his own. He is kind to the kind; he is also kind to the unkind: for Virtue is kind. He is faithful to the faithful; he is also faithful to the unfaithful: for Virtue is faithful." Tao Teh Ching, Chapter 49

Unitarian Universalism:

"The inherent worth and dignity of every person;"
"Justice, equity and compassion in human relations.... "
"The goal of world community with peace, liberty, and justice for all;"
"We affirm and promote respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part." Unitarian principles. 7,8

 

Wicca: "An it harm no one, do what thou wilt" (i.e. do what ever you will, as long as it harms nobody, including yourself). One's will is to be carefully thought out in advance of action. This is called the Wiccan Rede

 

Yoruba: (Nigeria): "One going to take a pointed stick to pinch a baby bird should first try it on himself to feel how it hurts."

 

Zoroastrianism: "That nature alone is good which refrains from doing unto another whatsoever is not good for itself". Dadistan-i-dinik 94:5
"Whatever is disagreeable to yourself do not do unto others." Shayast-na-Shayast 13:29 
 

Some philosophers' statements are:
Epictetus: "What you would avoid suffering yourself, seek not to impose on others." (circa 100 CE)

Kant: "Act as if the maxim of thy action were to become by thy will a universal law of nature."

Plato: "May I do to others as I would that they should do unto me." (Greece; 4th century BCE)

Socrates: "Do not do to others that which would anger you if others did it to you." (Greece; 5th century BCE)

Seneca: "Treat your inferiors as you would be treated by your superiors," Epistle 47:11 (Rome; 1st century CE) 

 

Source:  Religious Tolerance Shared belief in the "Golden Rule"
(a/k.a. Ethics of Reciprocity)
 

GRR's picture

GRR

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LBmuskoka wrote: Personally,

LBmuskoka wrote:

Personally, I have no desire to reinvent the wheel....

Not sure why, but I find this strangely compelling  

Arminius's picture

Arminius

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Hi LB:   We all are

Hi LB:

 

We all are re-inventing the wheel, all the time. Every one of us is born without concepts, and has to conceptualize what has already been conceptualized many times before. If we are lucky enough to be creative thinkers (like some of the people you quoted) then we invent a few new concepts, and pass them on, and maybe have a new religion or though system named after us.

 

But you are right; there is no need to invent a new religion; there already are more than enough of them. That which is vaguely known as "enlightenment" can be had within or outside of any religion. It took me decades and forays through several of the world's religions to realize that, and now I am back at the religion of my childhood and youth, which is perhaps more imperfect than some of other religions I have come across, but nevertheless the beloved religion of my culture, childhood, and youth, and I love it despite its imperfections.

 

Every religion has some flaws. Rather than founding a new religion (which will also have flaws) one could and perhaps should simply iron out the flaws in one's familiar religion and culture.

Arminius's picture

Arminius

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Happy Genius wrote: Arminius

Happy Genius wrote:

Arminius wrote:

 

First off, I don't know anything with absolute certainty. I'm with Socrates: "I know that I don't know." Whatever I say is either speculative or metaphorical or both.

 

Are your certain of that?

 

Hi Happy Genius:

 

No, I'm not.

 

Yes, a lot of people meditate well, but that's all they do. The purpose of meditation is to quiet the mind and perhaps penetrate a deeper level of consciousness or awareness, which will then influence our thoughts, which will influence our actions.

 

What ultimately matters are our actions, but thought comes before action, and consciousness or awareness before thought. Meditation puts first things first. If we dabble in the realm of thought or action, without a firm foundation of consciousness or awareness, then we tend to go astray.

 

I am, of course, in full agreement with you. And even the rain-laden clouds and the dripping cedars outside of my window nod in silent agreement.

boltupright's picture

boltupright

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I have the perfect B.S.

I have the perfect B.S. (belief system).

I starts with one word.

 

UNITY.

 

 

Bolt

Arminius's picture

Arminius

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O Boy, Bolt, you have joined

O Boy, Bolt, you have joined my B.S.!

 

Welcome, Brother!

oui's picture

oui

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Ichthys wrote: oui

Ichthys wrote:

oui wrote:

 Maybe the perfect religion is no religion.  Throw out everything we think we know about spirituality to make room for God to fill the space.

What about Jesus?

 

Jesus is welcome too!   However, for me, God is the source.

oui's picture

oui

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 LBmuskoka, I love your list.

 LBmuskoka, I love your list.  I would like to add to that something from the Egyptian Book of the Dead:

 

"Cause no tears."

ShamanWolf's picture

ShamanWolf

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 This is a trick question,

 This is a trick question, right, Arminius?

No human can even hope to create perfection.  I am sure you are fully aware of that. ;)

InannaWhimsey's picture

InannaWhimsey

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ShamanWolf,   that's why all

ShamanWolf,

 

that's why all humans will never be able to live up to Bitey's example.  Poor, poor souls :3

 

Just a Self-writing poem,

InannaWhimsey

Pilgrims Progress's picture

Pilgrims Progress

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Thanks, LB, for that quick

Thanks, LB, for that quick course in comparative religion/philosophy.

 

It's interesting to note that whilst the devotees often claim their faith to be the one true one - the message is often astonishingly similar.

Mendalla's picture

Mendalla

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It's funny that LB's post

It's funny that LB's post quotes the UU principles because the nature of UU'ism is such that the sources of all of those quotes are part of the sources of what we call "our living tradition". And that's why I don't think I could improve on UU'ism in principle: it's a faith where we are each called to find our path through the world while respecting the sometimes quite different paths that others have taken. In practice, we have our flaws (but what human institution doesn't?), but in principle, it's where I want to be.

 

That said, this is all IMHO, and I think that's there is no best, perfect, ideal belief system for everyone. There is, however, the possibility of each of us finding a belief system that best, perfect, ideal for us. It is, however, important that each person's ideal system accepts and respects1 the existence of each other person's ideal system (else we get the tragic religious wars that have marked some periods of history).

 

Mendalla

 

1 I'm using "accepts and respects" in place of "tolerates" because the latter can sometimes be a grudging admission that it's okay for someone to be different without really extending any kind of real acceptance or respect for that difference.

 

crazyheart's picture

crazyheart

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I don't think there is a

I don't think there is a "perfect" religion  or belief and I wouldnt want one. I need to make room for the spirit to move.

Arminius's picture

Arminius

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ShamanWolf wrote:  This is a

ShamanWolf wrote:

 This is a trick question, right, Arminius?

No human can even hope to create perfection.  I am sure you are fully aware of that. ;)

 

Hi ShamanWolf:

 

Of course it is a trick question. I don't even know what perfection is, much less how to attain it.

 

The artistic pursuit is different. If we love what we are are doing, then we strive to do it to the best of our ability. That's why I regard religion as an artistic pursuit and religious expression as art.

LBmuskoka's picture

LBmuskoka

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Arminius wrote: Every

Arminius wrote:

Every religion has some flaws. Rather than founding a new religion (which will also have flaws) one could and perhaps should simply iron out the flaws in one's familiar religion and culture.

 

Perhaps a mere quibble but, the principles of religions are not flawed, the people living them are.

 

Some may see that as simply semantics, I do not.

 

Every major religion that has survived the ages has at its core one basic principle - respect the other, the planet and the creator. This is simple and straightforward.  Each of us knows that life is better when we live without conflict and destruction.

Each of us strives for that in our own lives.  Yet....

 

It is not practiced to the Other, the Planet or even the Creator.

 

If all the believers of all the religions put into practice the core principle of the religion, this world would be a better place. 

It would become Eden on Earth.

 

One does not have to invent a new wheel, just clean up the cart that rides upon it.

 

 

LB


History is the chronicle of divorces between creed and deed.

     Louis Fischer, (1896 – 1970)

Pilgrims Progress's picture

Pilgrims Progress

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LBmuskoka wrote: Perhaps a

LBmuskoka wrote:

Perhaps a mere quibble but, the principles of religions are not flawed, the people living them are.

 Some may see that as simply semantics, I do not.

And nor do I.

( It can be a bit tricky, though to understand those principles if one relies solely on a literal reading.)

 

Mendalla,

After reading your post, I'm finding it increasingly difficult to define my faith path. Mmm, I seem to be a progressive who thinks like a Unitarian. 

Mendalla's picture

Mendalla

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Pilgrims Progress

Pilgrims Progress wrote:

Mendalla,

After reading your post, I'm finding it increasingly difficult to define my faith path. Mmm, I seem to be a progressive who thinks like a Unitarian. 

 

Just keep in mind that the Unitarian and Universalist movements that eventually merged to form modern Unitarian Universalism were liberal theological movements in the Protestantism of their day and therefore not all that unlike today's progressive Christianity. So, being a progressive who thinks like a Unitarian isn't actually such an odd thing .

 

Mendalla

 

Arminius's picture

Arminius

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Yes, LB, the principles in

Yes, LB, the principles in themselves are not be flawed, ony their interpretation and practical application is. I think this is because the principles are not applied from the unitive viewpoint of the greater whole but from the egocentric viewpoint of the individual or group.

 

But, when looking at religion, where does one separate the principles of a religion from the interpretation and practical application of those principles? A religion is judged not so much by its principles but by what it actually does.

LBmuskoka's picture

LBmuskoka

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Arminius wrote: A religion is

Arminius wrote:

A religion is judged not so much by its principles but by what it actually does.

 

A religion does nothing.  The people practicing do. 

 

Again, it is a matter of living the principles.

 

Florence Nightingale was a devout Christian, she believed her calling to nurse the soldiers of the Crimean war was a "divine calling".  The slavery abolishionists saw themselves as devout Christians following Jesus' path to equality of man.  Tommy Douglas was a Baptist minister who fought for universal health care for Canadians because he believed the calling to heal the sick.

 

Those are just the Christians that pop into my head.  In every faith there are people who live the foundational principle of their religion that I posted above. 

 

Just imagine if every follower - not just a few - did the same.

 

 

LB


The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting;

it has been found difficult and left untried.

     G. K. Chesterton

Arminius's picture

Arminius

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LBmuskoka wrote:   A religion

LBmuskoka wrote:

 

A religion does nothing.  The people practicing do. 

 

Again, it is a matter of living the principles.

 

Florence Nightingale was a devout Christian, she believed her calling to nurse the soldiers of the Crimean war was a "divine calling".  The slavery abolishionists saw themselves as devout Christians following Jesus' path to equality of man.  Tommy Douglas was a Baptist minister who fought for universal health care for Canadians because he believed the calling to heal the sick.

 

Those are just the Christians that pop into my head.  In every faith there are people who live the foundational principle of their religion that I posted above. 

 

Just imagine if every follower - not just a few - did the same.

  

LB


The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting;

it has been found difficult and left untried.

     G. K. Chesterton

 

Yes, LB, of course.

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