Panentheist
Increasingly, a common anthropology is emerging.
Posted on: 01/17/2009 08:15
The definition of "a common anthropology" is "the understanding of who we human beings are and where we fit into the scheme of things". The author (Sallie McFague) AFAIMC points to an ecological lifestyle, which in turn means that we should begin to switch from an individualistic world-view to a communitarian world-view.
The current book the Westminster bookclub is reading and studying is the book "A new Climate for Theology" by retired Prof Sallie McFague.
I bring this to your attention because of the theme (Global Warming) she tackles. If you check the lists of subjects being presented for discussion on the frontpage of WC, you see that each block of subjects contains appr. 25 topic of a religious nature. Thus far we have been offered over 4000 subjects. I have checked only a few at random but I have satisfied myself that few have anything to do with Global Warming. If the reader suggests that this topic belongs somewhere else, I would respond that I leave it where it is as Sallie McFague focusses on the relationship between the threatening global warming and the theology connected with that threat. Even a cursary contemplation of the Intro and Chapters 1+2 makes clear that she asks us to take another look at both Humanity and God and to contemplate the relationship between the two.
My hope is that the participants in Wondercafe will shift their attention from the strict theological issues we normally contemplate to the relationship between the universe we are part of, including our relationship with God.
What is the urgency to do so? I am in the last years of my life and am contemplating the life my children, grand-children and great-grand-child can look forward to. Whatever my wishes for them, my understanding is that they are facing some hard times based on the consequences of the Global Warming. The question? What has Global Warming to do with the Bible, God and/or Theology?
My opinion? We need the thinking power of a body like the United Church to tackle a topic such as this.
Again, consider buying this book and let us go to work. Thus far I have found it fascinating, and am betting that, so will you! There are several folks I can think of to help lead this discussion.
Shalom.
Afterthought: From among many very astute people on this board, I take this opportunity to invite Arminius to become involved in this project.
My reason for picking on him is
a) he is a farmer, and knows about relationships,
b) he is a philospher,
c) he is an author and
d) he is well acquainted with prose and poetry.
Arminius, this is your call to arms!
Duty calls man!
Thanks for your consideration.
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Birthstone
Did you just edit? I had
Posted on: 01/17/2009 08:57
Did you just edit? I had this lovely post, and it vanished into cyberspace :)
I'm not Arminius, but include me too please.
Pan- sometimes people are at their most dynamic & wonderful in their 'last years'. I hope you feel that way for many many many last years.
Two things stuck out for me in your post. The main point is something I support - that humans need to come together over care for the earth. Sorry- not only CAN, but will. Whether it takes a long time or short is up to guiding lights, commonplace discussion of it around them, and absence of other immediate anxiety - ie war, famine, economic crashes.
The lesser point you make to me is the larger underlying new paradigm- a turn from looking back and putting precious energy into honouring ancestry & cultures - turning from that to looking forward and putting our energy & pride in human development & potential (based on a common anthropology).
Again, someone we need to have a commonplace discussion & awareness of it, despite the troubles of our time - economy worries & war should enhance our collective push for the new paradigm, rather than suppress it.
Panentheist
Birthstone wrote: Did you
Posted on: 01/17/2009 09:21
Did you just edit? I had this lovely post, and it vanished into cyberspace :)
Yes, I did. Hope the edit improved on the original. Otherwise, --- sigh!
Birthstone
nah - it turned out ok :)
Posted on: 01/17/2009 11:30
nah - it turned out ok :)
RichardBott
Hi, Panen... You might want
Posted on: 01/17/2009 14:00
Hi, Panen...
You might want to check out the other discussion sections of the WonderCafe. There have been a number of discussions on current thoughts and worries about climate change. Unless we were specifically discussing our spiritual/religious connection to climate change, I'd hope we'd not start a thread in the "Religion and Faith" section.
Christ's peace - r
Arminius
Well, Richard, this thread is
Posted on: 01/17/2009 15:13
Well, Richard, this thread is about Eco-Spirituality. Therefore, it properly belongs in Religion and Faith.
________________________________________________
Hi Peter: I can't possibly let such a challenge go unanswered!
The basic principle by which our universe and planet operates is one of opposites being separate as well as united, and a transcendental power that separates and unites them. The three, to me, constitute The Holy Trinity.
The tension between opposites is a creative tension, but the flipside of it is destructive tension. If we manage a balance beweteeen the two, then the tension will be largely creative. If we go off balance too much, or for too long, then the tension will be destructive. In other words, whether or not the tension between opposites turns out creative or destructive is a matter of balance between opposites.
Nature, or God, alaways strives for balance. The striving for balance between opposites is the basic theme of the Divine Cosmic Dance. Because the balance necessitates both extremes—and we need to explore both extremes in order to know where the balance is!—we sometimes go from one extreme to the other. Unfortunately, some of us get stuck in one extreme, or the other, and forget to return to the balance.
The planetary ecosystem operates from the viewpoint of the planetary whole, and always strives for balance. But we, Homo sapiens sapiens, despite our double sapiency, or perhaps because of our double sapiency, have gone way off balance!
Nature will eventually re-assert the balance that we have so grossly disrupted—but at our peril! Unless we re-estbablish the natural balance in time, we will face dire consequences that may wipe out a good part or all of our species. We, with our imbalanced actions, are about to destroy ourselves. We are about to committ "speciescide."
A theology and spirituality that is nature-based, that worships a natural rather than a supernatural God, and God in nature if not God as nature, and regards the universe and our planet as a Divine manifestation of God, would go a long way toward saving ourselves as a species. It would put sacredness back into the natural world, where it belongs.
I and many others call this spirituality "Eco-Spirtuality." The United Church of Canada coudln't do better than embrace Eco-Spirtuality—wholeheartedly!
In Planetary and Cosmic Unity,
Arminius
RichardBott
Hi, Arminius. When I
Posted on: 01/17/2009 18:20
Hi, Arminius.
When I re-read my previous post, I realized that I took - and take - exception to threads that start off with (my paraphrase), "You silly fools haven't looked at something, and I'm going to point it out to you."
At least, that's how I read, "If you check the lists of subjects being presented for discussion on the frontpage of WC, you see that each block of subjects contains appr. 25 topic of a religious nature. Thus far we have been offered over 4000 subjects. I have checked only a few at random but I have satisfied myself that few have anything to do with Global Warming. ... My hope is that the participants in Wondercafe will shift their attention from the strict theological issues we normally contemplate to the relationship between the universe we are part of, including our relationship with God."
My response to what I saw as a patronizing statement on Panenthiest's part is to point out that discussions on that topic have been happening since the Cafe opened.
If Panenthiest wants to start a thread on eco/theology, great. If people want to chat about it, even better! It is an important part of our faith that needs to be talked about.
But to suggest that the other conversations on this forum are not about "the relationship between the universe we are part of, including our relationship with God" is, in my estimation; condescending, rude, and not a particularly good way to invite others into a discussion.
I'll get over my mad, soon.
I'll even participate in the thread, once I get there.
Christ's peace - r
Arminius
Hi
Posted on: 01/17/2009 19:27
Hi Richard:
Well, Panentheist invited me to participate, so I arbitrarily threw the rail switch and re-railed his topic onto an eco-theological rail. I don't think he minds.
I didn't find his statements particularly rude, offensive, or patronizing.
One of the balances between opposites I talked about in my previous post is the balance between offender and offended. On that particular balancing point, the offender does not offend. The offended chooses to be offended—or not.
This does not give anyone license to offend. But it can help the offended not to feel offended.
Is this part of Christ's peace?
Kinst
I want to share a little
Posted on: 01/17/2009 19:29
I want to share a little scriptural nature trail, inspired by my green bible. If you have some time to kill at Chapters/Indigo, take a green bible out and try reading one of their bible trails, they're really good. I made this one up though.
Genesis
There's a thread here about the Noah's arc story with a lot of really smart commentary, check it out. Noah's arc ends with a covenant of protection for every living creature, not just humans. And a rainbow
.
Try Genesis 9:8-17Ecclesiastes
I really like Ecclesiastes, it's all about being humble, and I had never read it before so it kind of suprised me with what it had to say.
Try Ecclesiastes 1:4-7, 3:1-8, 3:19-20Job
Job is full of pages of nature poetry. I'm kind of an environmentalist, but whoever wrote Job liked nature more than I do.
Try Job 12, 38, 39Arminius
Hi Kinst: I read about your
Posted on: 01/17/2009 19:44
Hi Kinst:
I read about your Green Bible before, but didn't quite know what it was. I'm going to buy one, and quote from it when conducting my next lay service. Thanks!
Panentheist
The name for this discussion
Posted on: 01/21/2009 15:43
The name for this discussion is: "Increasingly, a common anthropology is emerging." Some time has gone by without any activity. The reason for that has simply been that I have been non-plussed by some rather uncomplimentary personal remarks. I needed some time to digest them and to decide on a strategy. The time of contemplation has past, and my decision is that, since this topic is too important by far to drop it, I will continue as planned in the hope that a good discussion will ensue.
Early in her book Sallie McFague states that :"at the heart of any revolution bent on changing human behaviour lies an anthropology - an understanding of who we human beings are and where we fit in the scheme of things".
Prof McFague further states that "a turn to a communitarian model is paramount, an absolute necessity". My understanding is that she is urging us to change to and adopt a communitarian model (lifestyle) rather than continue to live the individualistic lifestyle we seem to be wedded to currently. She cautions us to do so because of her concern for the consequences we will have to face if we continue to live the aforementioned individualistic lifestyle.
With refference to the misunderstanding between Rev Richard Bot and myself, rest assured that there is no animosity from my side. Richard read something and responded. From my side, I was puzzled, thought about it for a couple of days and, in turn, respond. Where we go from here is up to the reader. I can assure you that the subject is alive and well. Today, Wed Jan 21-09, we dealt with the 2nd chapter of the book and again, I can assure you that the discussion that ensued was spirited, to say the least. As time goes by, I will summarize some of the exchances for your information and digestion. I can further inform you with much pleasure that we have participants from the Unitarians, the United Church of Canada (several congregations) and from the Anglican church, a regular United Nations. <;-}
Thank you for your attention, and till we meet again in Cyber Space.
Shalom
Kappa
I just came across this
Posted on: 01/21/2009 16:30
I just came across this thread -- thanks for not letting it die. I believe that nature in its totality is one of the ways where spirituality should meet science in this age where the scientific study of nature has become such a dominant philosophy. I'm really interested to hear about your "Green Bible" Kinst, having never heard of it before. I will have to check it out.
Also, I am reading the Tao Te Ching (a translation, as I have no abilities in any Chinese, much less old Chinese which is probably different from modern), and it is very much about these principles of balance. Of course, that is why the symbol for the Tao is Yin and Yang. It is a spirituality with a far different history than Christianity, but I've found it speaks with a universality that I can't always find in the Bible because the stories about the wars the Jews fought against their neighbors, and Paul's apparent misogyny (at times) can be distracting.
Panentheist
...definition of "a common
Posted on: 01/22/2009 17:13
...definition of "a common anthropology" is "the understanding of who we human beings are and where we fit into the scheme of things". The author (Sallie McFague) ... points to an ecological lifestyle, which ... means ... begin to switch from an individualistic world-view to a communitarian world-view.
As the whole book is focused on the question: what is a common anthropology, and the suggestion that we: switch from one world-view to another, this defenition will be repeated till is is no longer felt to be of value.
We'll be back to the issue of humanity's place in the scheme of things and its function. In the meantime prof McFague presents another issue which I find intriguing. She writes, and I quote: " ... What must I do as a theologian?" She goes on to say that clarity is needed about the 2 main issues, "Who are we and Who is God?" AAMOF, she says that the interpretation of the God-World relationship is a critical issue. She then (and I find this most important) says:" If theologians, who are some of the keepers and interpreters of this deep knowledge, allow false, inappropriate, unhelpful and dangerous notions of God and ourselves to continue as our society's assumptions, we are not doing our job. A primary task of the theologians is to guard and encourage tight thinking about God and ourselves".
I find this part of her reasoning therefore so important as a) it is found at the beginning of the introduction to her presentation, and b) because I have noticed that lately this warning, addressed to our spiritual educators (ministers) and ourselves is often found in the books being produced. One such example is found in "The Heart of Christianity" by Marcus Borg where he cautions that (talking about the education of our children) "it is important that children not be taught in such a way that they will later need to unlearn many things". (p194).
Speaking for myself: thinking back to the things we were taught during our growing up years and the subsequent education I obtained during my later years, I am very much in tune with the warnings sounded by scholars like McFague and Borg and others.
I wonder if some of you readers might share your thoughts on this issue.
We'll be back to this, and other issues.
Shalom.
Arminius
Hi Peter: Thank you for
Posted on: 01/22/2009 21:29
Hi Peter: Thank you for rescuing this all-important thread from the archives!
Yes, I agree. We need a transformation of consciousness—the sense of who or what we are, and what God is in relation to us—before we can transform our world view.
Our consciousness determines our thoughts which then determine our actions. In other words, consciousness comes first! If we want to transform our world, we'll have to start with transforming our consciousness. This will lead to a transformed world view, which will then compell us to engage in dynamic action to transform our world.
What, then, is the best way to transform one's consciousness?
I would say meditation, contemplation, contemplative or meditative prayer, or any one of a large number of contemplative and meditative practices.
In the practice of Zen Buddhism, one just meditates until one has attained the state of transformed consciousness, and then acts directly from that state, without any intervention from the thinking mind. But we humans are logical thinkers. The ability to think logically has evolved for a (good) reason, and we better make good use of it.
Thus, the Western practioners of Zen evolved a Western type of Zen which unites Zen philosophy, or its Western equivalent, with the meditative practice of Zen.
The meditative practice is, of course, of foremost importance, because in it we experience the innate Cosmic Consciosuness, the primordial consciousness of is-ness, of just being, which is so aptly described as "I AM" in the Bible. This is a non-dualistic consciousness in which there is neither observer nor observed, neither experiencer nor experienced, neither creator nor created, neither evolver nor evolved. There is just experiencing, being, creating, evolving.
This, I think, is the experience of the primordial Cosmic Consciousness of the "I AM" of Moses and the ancient Jewish mystics. This is transforming one's cosnsciousness from ego- or ethno- or anthropo- to world-centric.
And this world-centric Cosmic Consciousness then becomes that which we ultimately identify with, our ultimate, godly, and Kosmic Self, from which we then think and act. Then our thoughts will be godly, and our actions will be godly.
This goes more than a little bit against the grain of traditional Christian theology and religion. The revs who post here on wondercafe have to please the traditionalists among their congregations, and have support traditional as well as progressive expressions of spirituality. They can't be expected to come all out in favour of new thought, and can't be faulted for that.
This transformation of consciousness is not really the business of the clergy, anyway. Every one of us has to be his or her own transformer. After all, in the godly state of non-duality, the transformed is the transformer.
In Cosmic Consciousness,
Arminius
RichardBott
Hard to change life-long
Posted on: 01/23/2009 13:54
Hard to change life-long patterns, eh, Peter? For both of us, I guess. Well, on to the subject at hand.
I have to wonder if a huge part of our (cultural?) difficulty around humankind's relationship with creation - especially within the context of our Christian heritage - is that we see ourselves as the pinnacle of development.
Part of the task, from my perspective, is to reposition ourselves... in a couple of different directions. One direction is the recognition that we are a part of a tightly interwoven ecosystem, located on a small planet, orbiting a G-class star, in the out arm of our galaxy, which is itself one of a myriad. The other direction I think we need to move in comes out of our increasing awareness at all parts of Creation are, in their most basic form, individual informational 'bits' in what seems to be the holographic nature of Plank space and Plank time. (Some days I wonder if we're going to discover that this underlying matrix is the ultimate consciousness of the universe... perhaps even the Divine consciousness. A sort of "God with all things / God in all things / God is all things.")
Arminius... I agree with you about the place of the meditation in the growth of individual awareness. I also agree with your earlier statement about balance.
Perhaps part of the place of 'church' is to help participants both 'reach deep' and 'reach out' - to build awareness of our place as part of the tangible ecology and our place as part of the more intangible universe.
Christ's peace - r
Atheisto
..and if there's no scheme?
Posted on: 01/23/2009 14:29
..and if there's no scheme?
Arminius
Yes, of course, Richard, this
Posted on: 01/23/2009 14:42
Yes, of course, Richard, this is the place of the Church! And I joined the Church to assist in this endeavour.
I think truth is a two-fold phenomenon, a spectrum, if you will. On one side of the spectrum is the absolute albeit subjective truth of the pure experience of at-one-ment with everyone and everything, including God; the experience of being synthesis. This is experiential and emotional spirituality: The Spiritual Heart.
On the other side of the spectrum is the objectification, analysis or conceptualization of that experiential truth. It is relative, an arbitrary or artistic creation, which we create according to our personal conceptual framework, and that of our culture and time. This is rational spirituality: The Spiritual Mind.
Although we should delve deeply into both extremes of truth, it is equally important to retain a balance between the two: A balance between Spiritual Heart and Spiritual Mind.
As knowledge and wisdom advance in our culture, so do our cultural interpretations of the innate Divine. But this does not invalidate the older interpretations. On the contray, it validates them!
This insight alone should be enough to keep us from being contemptuous or dismissive of older forms of spirituality. For all we know, the age to come may regard our proud, state-of-the art insights as antiquated, and smile at us indulgently and somewhat patronizingly.
RichardBott
Atheisto wrote: ..and if
Posted on: 01/23/2009 14:57
..and if there's no scheme?
Hi, Atheisto -
Welcome back!
In response to your question... even if there's no scheme, we've worked to be in better balance with the eco-system, creating a healthier place for all things. In that case the 'spiritual' component only acts as a motivator for those who believe it has importance to them.
Christ's peace - r
Panentheist
RichardBott wrote: Part of
Posted on: 01/24/2009 10:58
Part of the task, from my perspective, is to reposition ourselves... in a couple of different directions. One direction is the recognition that we are a part of a tightly interwoven ecosystem, located on a small planet, orbiting a G-class star, in the out arm of our galaxy, which is itself one of a myriad.
This far I am in agreement with you.
The problem however is that very few of our leaders are doing that. To give you a clear example, we just passed through the advent season and heard (once again) about the birth of Jesus, the heavenly choirs, the story of the wise men, the cattle in the manger and etc in all their tradition. As far as I know, there has been no indication of any repositioning by our local ministers nor by anybody else. I haven't heard about it in the public press, neither have I heard about it in our monthly magazine, the "Observer".
IMO this is where it starts. Tell the story of the birth of Jesus as part of the actual creation story as we now know it.
Assuming, and that doesn't take much, many folks will be up in arms for the changes introduced. Explain (and back this up with the Bible) that Jesus taught: "it was told of old, but now ..." it has changed. That, to me is the repositioning we badly need. But it takes a concerted effort by the leadership of the church.This might cause a stir, but how much of a one is questionable. Let's face it, we all, kids and adults, are used to the schoolboards coming around with changes in the curriculum. Folks may grumble about the inconvenience, but nobody would get too upset about it. Life is like that, things change and we got to go with the flow. I may be wrong, but I am convinced that we have to start moving in this faschion.
The other direction I think we need to move in comes out of our increasing awareness at all parts of Creation are, in their most basic form, individual informational 'bits' in what seems to be the holographic nature of Plank space and Plank time. (Some days I wonder if we're going to discover that this underlying matrix is the ultimate consciousness of the universe... perhaps even the Divine consciousness. A sort of "God with all things / God in all things / God is all things.")
I read this note of yours but did not get its meaning, not being familiar with Plank etc.
Arminius... I agree with you about the place of the meditation in the growth of individual awareness. I also agree with your earlier statement about balance.
Perhaps part of the place of 'church' is to help participants both 'reach deep' and 'reach out' - to build awareness of our place as part of the tangible ecology and our place as part of the more intangible universe.
Now, this makes sense. Again, though, we have to start explaining that things have changed. Next, we have to follow up with the explanation of what the changes mean.
Slightly off track, you may remember how The issue in the 80s got started. You may recall how the New Song of Faith got started. Both of them got their impetous at Church converences. Since our Presbytery and subsequent Man-N.W.Conference are just ahead of us, this may be the right time to get the idea started.
Shalom.
InannaWhimsey
universe seems to operate
Posted on: 01/24/2009 13:28
universe seems to operate according to a few habits.
like, "everything has a cost" and "actions tend to follow the path of least resistance."
(there is a chance where you, the reader, could spontaneously change into a unicorn, but that's an extreme)
energy is potential work, which is force expressed over a distance. there are two basic types of energy, potential and kinetic -- potential is energy that isn't working (like water behind a dam) and kinetic energy is that water sluicing through the dam.
(so all our works and ideas and philosophies can be thought of to be straining against flowing down into a state of rest. or, to take the metaphor of the Fall, humanity once existed in a state of potential energy, of rest, and now are existing in a state of constant kinetic motion, a constant Fall...)
a candle flame cannot exist by itself -- it needs the oxygen and the wax and the wick (and the person to light it). all these things influence each other.
all our ideas and actions have effects and influence each other long past the time when we view that they end.
so, in effect, everything is in an evolutionary state, always changing.
we create maps of reality and call that reality. reality is always changing. have you ever heard the notion that if you don't change the world, the world will change you?
i take heart in the notion that, eventually, the maps that aren't in tune with reality, like Global Warming zealotry, American Fundamentalist Protestantism, and Nihilism eventually give way to more moderate, holistic approaches. which includes figuring out when not to do something as well as what parts of our problems are actual problems and what are caused by our maps of reality/worship of one map of reality.
(as Bucky Fuller said, "People always do the most intelligent thing, after they've tried every stupid alternative and none of them have worked.")
universe gives us what we need, not what we want,
Inannawhimsey
ps there will always be surprises and there will always be problems, so here's to a lifetime of sublime surprises and beautiful problems.
Arminius
I think we would all benefit
Posted on: 01/24/2009 14:08
I think we would all benefit from living more intutively, for it is in the direct, unconceptualized experience that ultimate truth is revealed. The ultimate truth, however, is unconceptualized, and the conceptualization thereof is our individual and collective creation. So we are creating ever better concepts to explain the inexplicable, ever better maps to navigate the "terra incognita."
Right now, our old maps are serving us poorly. High time to draw some new ones!
Panentheist
Arminius wrote: Right now,
Posted on: 01/25/2009 15:22
Right now, our old maps are serving us poorly. High time to draw some new ones!
The sermon for today dealt with the subject of Jonah and the whale. If you are not familiar with that story please visit the enclosed link: http://www.essortment.com/all/jonahwhale_rsug.htm
Our minster had another twist to the story and that is what I want to tell you about.
It took Jonah a few opportunities before he finally "got it" and went to deliver God's message to the people of the city Nineveh. What happened to the people of Nineveh? first crack, and they "got it." No hemming and hawing, once was enough! They got the message, they understood the message and they shaped up.
My reaction was: Well, in that case there is hope for the members of the United Church yet, meaning --- tell it like it is , and we'll get it --- first crack! <;-} What am I talking about, eh? Well, I'll tell you.
Like the inhabitants of Nineveh we are sailing by the "old maps" of Arminius, and the "old maps" are serving us poorly. (my opinion). The message I got this a.m. was printed on brandnew stock and was as up to date as you can possibly get. Obviously this is a Message stright from the "horse's mouth (meaning God) address to the inhabitants of the United Church of Canada and to the inhabitants of North America and further on to the world. Now, as far as I am concerned, I understand the message as I recognize the maps we are asked to sail by. Hope I made myself clear!
Ther is a further connection: As you know we, in Westminster Thunder Bay, are reading and munching on the contents of the book "A New Climate for Theology" by Sallie McFague. What is her message? Here comes the quote:
p49: If we are to turn away from Anthropocentrism - the focus on ourselves as masters of the earth - to cosmocentrism - the focus on the earth and where we belong in it - we need a functional creation story. We need a story about ourselves that will work: that is, a story that will help all of us live justly and sustainably in our home, planet earth!
Like the inhabitants of Nineveh, the Q is: will WE get it - first crack?
Speaking for myself, I don't know. What are the changes of us catching on? Again, no idea, but one can always hope - no?
Do I have any better ideas? I have mentioned it before, but do it here again: Within the next few months our church will be having their Presbytery meetings across Canada, followed by their Canadian Conferences (11?) My very strong inclination is to petition all levels of our Church government to Hear God's message. i.e. All across Canada during the next few months and weeks we have to make like our name is Jonah. And we have to tell our government at all levels that "we got it", - and send us - to broadcast the message.
Well, the idea is too audacious to consider --- unless we simply go and do it!
How about it?
Panentheist
Arminius wrote: Right now,
Posted on: 01/25/2009 15:22
Right now, our old maps are serving us poorly. High time to draw some new ones!
The sermon for today dealt with the subject of Jonah and the whale. If you are not familiar with that story please visit the enclosed link: http://www.essortment.com/all/jonahwhale_rsug.htm
Our minster had another twist to the story and that is what I want to tell you about.
It took Jonah a few opportunities before he finally "got it" and went to deliver God's message to the people of the city Nineveh. What happened to the people of Nineveh? first crack, and they "got it." No hemming and hawing, once was enough! They got the message, they understood the message and they shaped up.
My reaction was: Well, in that case there is hope for the members of the United Church yet, meaning --- tell it like it is , and we'll get it --- first crack! <;-} What am I talking about, eh? Well, I'll tell you.
Like the inhabitants of Nineveh we are sailing by the "old maps" of Arminius, and the "old maps" are serving us poorly. (my opinion). The message I got this a.m. was printed on brandnew stock and was as up to date as you can possibly get. Obviously this is a Message stright from the "horse's mouth (meaning God) address to the inhabitants of the United Church of Canada and to the inhabitants of North America and further on to the world. Now, as far as I am concerned, I understand the message as I recognize the maps we are asked to sail by. Hope I made myself clear!
Ther is a further connection: As you know we, in Westminster Thunder Bay, are reading and munching on the contents of the book "A New Climate for Theology" by Sallie McFague. What is her message? Here comes the quote:
p49: If we are to turn away from Anthropocentrism - the focus on ourselves as masters of the earth - to cosmocentrism - the focus on the earth and where we belong in it - we need a functional creation story. We need a story about ourselves that will work: that is, a story that will help all of us live justly and sustainably in our home, planet earth!
Like the inhabitants of Nineveh, the Q is: will WE get it - first crack?
Speaking for myself, I don't know. What are the changes of us catching on? Again, no idea, but one can always hope - no?
Do I have any better ideas? I have mentioned it before, but do it here again: Within the next few months our church will be having their Presbytery meetings across Canada, followed by their Canadian Conferences (11?) My very strong inclination is to petition all levels of our Church government to Hear God's message. i.e. All across Canada during the next few months and weeks we have to make like our name is Jonah. And we have to tell our government at all levels that "we got it", - and send us - to broadcast the message.
Well, the idea is too audacious to consider --- unless we simply go and do it!
How about it?
Panentheist
Arminius wrote: Right now,
Posted on: 01/25/2009 15:22
Right now, our old maps are serving us poorly. High time to draw some new ones!
The sermon for today dealt with the subject of Jonah and the whale. If you are not familiar with that story please visit the enclosed link: http://www.essortment.com/all/jonahwhale_rsug.htm
Our minster had another twist to the story and that is what I want to tell you about.
It took Jonah a few opportunities before he finally "got it" and went to deliver God's message to the people of the city Nineveh. What happened to the people of Nineveh? first crack, and they "got it." No hemming and hawing, once was enough! They got the message, they understood the message and they shaped up.
My reaction was: Well, in that case there is hope for the members of the United Church yet, meaning --- tell it like it is , and we'll get it --- first crack! <;-} What am I talking about, eh? Well, I'll tell you.
Like the inhabitants of Nineveh we are sailing by the "old maps" of Arminius, and the "old maps" are serving us poorly. (my opinion). The message I got this a.m. was printed on brandnew stock and was as up to date as you can possibly get. Obviously this is a Message stright from the "horse's mouth (meaning God) address to the inhabitants of the United Church of Canada and to the inhabitants of North America and further on to the world. Now, as far as I am concerned, I understand the message as I recognize the maps we are asked to sail by. Hope I made myself clear!
Ther is a further connection: As you know we, in Westminster Thunder Bay, are reading and munching on the contents of the book "A New Climate for Theology" by Sallie McFague. What is her message? Here comes the quote:
p49: If we are to turn away from Anthropocentrism - the focus on ourselves as masters of the earth - to cosmocentrism - the focus on the earth and where we belong in it - we need a functional creation story. We need a story about ourselves that will work: that is, a story that will help all of us live justly and sustainably in our home, planet earth!
Like the inhabitants of Nineveh, the Q is: will WE get it - first crack?
Speaking for myself, I don't know. What are the changes of us catching on? Again, no idea, but one can always hope - no?
Do I have any better ideas? I have mentioned it before, but do it here again: Within the next few months our church will be having their Presbytery meetings across Canada, followed by their Canadian Conferences (11?) My very strong inclination is to petition all levels of our Church government to Hear God's message. i.e. All across Canada during the next few months and weeks we have to make like our name is Jonah. And we have to tell our government at all levels that "we got it", - and send us - to broadcast the message.
Well, the idea is too audacious to consider --- unless we simply go and do it!
How about it?
Panentheist
Arminius wrote: Right now,
Posted on: 01/25/2009 15:22
Right now, our old maps are serving us poorly. High time to draw some new ones!
The sermon for today dealt with the subject of Jonah and the whale. If you are not familiar with that story please visit the enclosed link: http://www.essortment.com/all/jonahwhale_rsug.htm
Our minster had another twist to the story and that is what I want to tell you about.
It took Jonah a few opportunities before he finally "got it" and went to deliver God's message to the people of the city Nineveh. What happened to the people of Nineveh? first crack, and they "got it." No hemming and hawing, once was enough! They got the message, they understood the message and they shaped up.
My reaction was: Well, in that case there is hope for the members of the United Church yet, meaning --- tell it like it is , and we'll get it --- first crack! <;-} What am I talking about, eh? Well, I'll tell you.
Like the inhabitants of Nineveh we are sailing by the "old maps" of Arminius, and the "old maps" are serving us poorly. (my opinion). The message I got this a.m. was printed on brandnew stock and was as up to date as you can possibly get. Obviously this is a Message stright from the "horse's mouth (meaning God) address to the inhabitants of the United Church of Canada and to the inhabitants of North America and further on to the world. Now, as far as I am concerned, I understand the message as I recognize the maps we are asked to sail by. Hope I made myself clear!
Ther is a further connection: As you know we, in Westminster Thunder Bay, are reading and munching on the contents of the book "A New Climate for Theology" by Sallie McFague. What is her message? Here comes the quote:
p49: If we are to turn away from Anthropocentrism - the focus on ourselves as masters of the earth - to cosmocentrism - the focus on the earth and where we belong in it - we need a functional creation story. We need a story about ourselves that will work: that is, a story that will help all of us live justly and sustainably in our home, planet earth!
Like the inhabitants of Nineveh, the Q is: will WE get it - first crack?
Speaking for myself, I don't know. What are the changes of us catching on? Again, no idea, but one can always hope - no?
Do I have any better ideas? I have mentioned it before, but do it here again: Within the next few months our church will be having their Presbytery meetings across Canada, followed by their Canadian Conferences (11?) My very strong inclination is to petition all levels of our Church government to Hear God's message. i.e. All across Canada during the next few months and weeks we have to make like our name is Jonah. And we have to tell our government at all levels that "we got it", - and send us - to broadcast the message.
Well, the idea is too audacious to consider --- unless we simply go and do it!
How about it?
Panentheist
Arminius wrote: Right now,
Posted on: 01/25/2009 15:22
Right now, our old maps are serving us poorly. High time to draw some new ones!
The sermon for today dealt with the subject of Jonah and the whale. If you are not familiar with that story please visit the enclosed link: http://www.essortment.com/all/jonahwhale_rsug.htm
Our minster had another twist to the story and that is what I want to tell you about.
It took Jonah a few opportunities before he finally "got it" and went to deliver God's message to the people of the city Nineveh. What happened to the people of Nineveh? first crack, and they "got it." No hemming and hawing, once was enough! They got the message, they understood the message and they shaped up.
My reaction was: Well, in that case there is hope for the members of the United Church yet, meaning --- tell it like it is , and we'll get it --- first crack! <;-} What am I talking about, eh? Well, I'll tell you.
Like the inhabitants of Nineveh we are sailing by the "old maps" of Arminius, and the "old maps" are serving us poorly. (my opinion). The message I got this a.m. was printed on brandnew stock and was as up to date as you can possibly get. Obviously this is a Message stright from the "horse's mouth (meaning God) address to the inhabitants of the United Church of Canada and to the inhabitants of North America and further on to the world. Now, as far as I am concerned, I understand the message as I recognize the maps we are asked to sail by. Hope I made myself clear!
Ther is a further connection: As you know we, in Westminster Thunder Bay, are reading and munching on the contents of the book "A New Climate for Theology" by Sallie McFague. What is her message? Here comes the quote:
p49: If we are to turn away from Anthropocentrism - the focus on ourselves as masters of the earth - to cosmocentrism - the focus on the earth and where we belong in it - we need a functional creation story. We need a story about ourselves that will work: that is, a story that will help all of us live justly and sustainably in our home, planet earth!
Like the inhabitants of Nineveh, the Q is: will WE get it - first crack?
Speaking for myself, I don't know. What are the changes of us catching on? Again, no idea, but one can always hope - no?
Do I have any better ideas? I have mentioned it before, but do it here again: Within the next few months our church will be having their Presbytery meetings across Canada, followed by their Canadian Conferences (11?) My very strong inclination is to petition all levels of our Church government to Hear God's message. i.e. All across Canada during the next few months and weeks we have to make like our name is Jonah. And we have to tell our government at all levels that "we got it", - and send us - to broadcast the message.
Well, the idea is too audacious to consider --- unless we simply go and do it!
How about it?
Panentheist
Arminius wrote: Right now,
Posted on: 01/25/2009 16:37
Right now, our old maps are serving us poorly. High time to draw some new ones!
The sermon for today dealt with the subject of Jonah and the whale. If you are not familiar with that story please visit the enclosed link: http://www.essortment.com/all/jonahwhale_rsug.htm
Our minster had another twist to the story and that is what I want to tell you about.
It took Jonah a few opportunities before he finally "got it" and went to deliver God's message to the people of the city Nineveh. What happened to the people of Nineveh? First Crack, and they "got it." No hemming and hawing, once was enough! They got the message, they understood the message and they shaped up.
My reaction was: Well, in that case there is hope for the members of the United Church yet, meaning --- tell it like it is , and we'll get it --- first crack! <;-} What am I talking about, eh? Well, I'll tell you.
Like the inhabitants of Nineveh we are sailing by the "old maps" of Arminius, and the "old maps" are serving us poorly. (my opinion). The message I got this a.m. was printed on brandnew stock and was as up to date as you can possibly get. Obviously this is a Message straight from the "horse's mouth" (meaning God) addressed to the inhabitants of the United Church of Canada and to the inhabitants of North America and further on to the world. Now, as far as I am concerned, I understand the message. We have to change maps. Pure and simple. Hope I made myself clear!
There is a further connection: As you know we, in Westminster, Thunder Bay, are reading and digesting the contents of the book "A New Climate for Theology" by Sallie McFague. What is her message? Here comes the quote:
p49: If we are to turn away from Anthropocentrism - the focus on ourselves as masters of the earth - to cosmocentrism - the focus on the earth and where we belong in it - we need a functional creation story. We need a story about ourselves that will work: that is, a story that will help all of us live justly and sustainably in our home, planet earth!
Like the inhabitants of Nineveh, the Q is: will WE get it - first crack?
Speaking for myself, I don't know. What are the changes of us catching on? Again, no idea, but one can always hope - no?
Do I have any better ideas? I have mentioned it before, but do it here again: Within the next few months the United Church will be having their Presbytery meetings across Canada, followed by their Canadian Conferences (11?) My very strong inclination is to petition all levels of our Church government to Hear God's message. i.e. All across Canada during the next few months and weeks we have to make like our name is Jonah. And we have to tell our government at all levels that "we got it", - and send us - to broadcast the message.
Is this at all a possiblity? Yes, it is. Remember the "old" 20 Article of Faith we used to live by? Well, in the spring of 2000 AD Cambrian Presbytery petitioned General Council (following standard procedures) to rewrite the 20 Article of Faith in the vernacular. The result? The "Song of Faith" which was adopted unanimously at General Council 2006 in Thunder Bay, On. i.e. the demand for updated language and imagery was heard and acted upon. Today it is being used across the nation.
Let's do it again. Petition our leaders, give them your ideas and watch them produce! It is exciting to even think about it.
Shalom.
Kappa
Woah, Panentheist. I think
Posted on: 01/25/2009 16:50
Woah, Panentheist. I think something weird must have happened with your computer, given the multiple postings.
Panentheist
Kappa wrote: Woah,
Posted on: 01/25/2009 20:04
Woah, Panentheist. I think something weird must have happened with your computer, given the multiple postings.
You are so right Kappa. But do you think I could correct it? No way! Anybody else can get in here and fix it. In addition tell me how it happpened and what I can do to prevent it!?
Apart from that young lady, what did you think of my idea to petition the courts? That was the meat you know <;-}
Thanks and cheers.
InannaWhimsey
Panentheist, you were
Posted on: 01/26/2009 04:15
Panentheist, you were wondering aboot Max Planck and the whole Holographic Universe raised by RichardBott?
For your perusal:
The Holographic Universe: http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20126911.300-our-world-may-be-a-gi...
Max Planck schtuff: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Planck
(so, it is theorized that there is a minimum measure of distance, called the Planck Length, and a minimum measure of time, called Planck Time, since Length and Time can be considered as quanta at the very, very, very small scales)
Arm,
I think that there are some pretty good maps in use already, made by some pretty good mapmakers. There is always room to make more maps -- diversity/evolution produces fecund maps.
The trick now is to get people in general, to teach them to grok with fullness that these maps are maps and not the actual oceans and lands they are sailing through. To be able to navigate through the oceans and lands using multiple maps and accepting paradox as a healthy norm. I think this will mitigate a lot of the 'problems' in the world.
The map of Christianity still is a good map, with lots of potential to it and the map of Christianity in such places as Canada and the US is still very young. The map of Biblical Literalism is dying out because it cannot deal with the real oceans and lands of reality. The map of Roman Catholicism is still going strong, with their embrace of the saints and the spirits.
Eventually, the cries of those who say their map is the best die down (the Phelps' & the Hitchens' etc) leaving us who like to play, swim deep in the waters and play long in the lands in peace.
Sailing on,
Inannawhimsey
Ravan
Heh - okay. But until we get
Posted on: 01/26/2009 12:24
Heh - okay. But until we get the d*#! "treasure here" symbol off the maps, we are guaranteeing that people won't get the difference between the maps and the reality.
Arminius
Oh yes, Inanna, some of the
Posted on: 01/26/2009 14:43
Oh yes, Inanna, some of the old maps are pretty good, they just need to be updated a little. I'm traveling by some of them myself.
The trouble is that most people don't even look at the old maps, but go by some modern or postmodern maps that lead them astray.
My map is ancient, but updated post postmodern.
Arminius
Yes, Ravan, the x on the map
Posted on: 01/26/2009 15:26
Yes, Ravan, the x on the map doesn't count, because the treasure ins't there. The treasure is the underlying experience of the real or ultimate reality.
"The Grail will bring forth all treasures of the world," said the hermit, Trevrizent, to the Grail seeker, Parzival, in Wofram von Eschenbach's Grail epic Parzival.
People went on treasure hunts for the Grail because of this, not realizing that the Grail represents all treasures of the world because it is the world: The world-centric consciousness of at-one-ment with everyone and everything, including God.
We are evolving from ego- to ethno- to anthropo- to Gaia- to Kosmo-centric. We are the world!
But these abovementioned stages are necessary, developmental stages of psycho-spirtual evolution. We necessarily proceed from one to the other, each stage is internalized, transcended and carried forward into the next higher stage: Development through envelopment.
Thus, those of us who fancy ourselves to be higher evolved than others can't look down on them. They necessarily are where they are, and we were(are) where they are. But we can always nudge them on and encourage them to evolve.
Even those of us who think they may be at the highest evolved stage are only on a temporary stage. There are higher stages yet to come! Kosmos innately yearns to evolve ITself toward ever higher forms of consciosuness, and we humans can and should be co-evolutionaries in this most sacred psycho-spiritual-social process.
Panentheist
Arminius wrote: Yes, Ravan,
Posted on: 01/26/2009 16:55
Yes, Ravan, the x on the map doesn't count, because the treasure ins't there. The treasure is the underlying experience of the real or ultimate reality.
---------
People went on treasure hunts for the Grail because of this, not realizing that the Grail represents all treasures of the world because it is the world: The world-centric consciousness of at-one-ment with everyone and everything, including God.
We are evolving from ego- to ethno- to anthropo- to Gaia- to Kosmo-centric. We are the world!
Arminius, now I remember why I wanted your involvement!
Appreciate you being there!
Shalom.
InannaWhimsey
Well, one of the maps that
Posted on: 01/26/2009 17:28
Well, one of the maps that 'doesn't work' is the notion of Global Warming being a result of mankind's sins. I notice (co-create?) that thread in even sombunall environmentalist's messages. Mankind being a virus, a plague, etc etc.
When another map that I like to use is to treat this Global Warming thing as another example of universe giving us what we need, not what we want. Tis a problem to learn from, to play with, in fact. We will always have problems that universe gives us (itself) to play with. There will always be storms that threaten us.
We are universe become aware of itself.
Doing the Bucky Fuller,
Inannawhimsey
Arminius
Yes, Inanna, we are the
Posted on: 01/26/2009 19:38
Yes, Inanna, we are the universe becoming aware of itself—ever so slowly, but faster now than ever before in human history.
There are more and more of us who are pushing the process. For those of us who are highly evolved, the drive to evolve consciousness is a mysterious, irresistable, transpersonal, ecstatic compulsion.
In medieval Grail lore, there is a price to pay for getting the Grail.
The price for getting the Grail is that the Grail gets you. In other words, you have to give yourself to the Grail in order to get the Grail. Once you get the Grail, you bcome a servant of the Grail. The price for getting the Grail is lifelong servership to the Grail.
In Kosmic Consciousness,
Arminius von Welterod, your Knight of the Holy Grail
Ravan
Hmmmmm. Reading that,
Posted on: 01/26/2009 20:22
Hmmmmm. Reading that, Arminius, brings to mind that there's not much difference between mataphors and mythologies....i suppose that should be another thread, but at least I can point out that language is also a map; a map with very little detail and plenty of room for interpretation, as well as places that look like treasure!
Arminius
Yes, of course, Ravan,
Posted on: 01/26/2009 21:04
Yes, of course, Ravan, language is a map: our entire world of concepts is a map.
The pure, unconceptualized experience of reality is real and true. The conceptual interpretation thereof is our arabitrary creation, our map.
Unfortunately, many people confuse the map with the territory, and believe that the map is the territory.
We humans need maps to guide ourselves by. Which is fine, as long as we use the pure, unconceptualized experience as our compass. If we have only our self-created maps, we are lost. There can be no absolute truth in mapping. The absolute truth is the pure, unconceptualized experience, in which we experience IT.
RichardBott
A first attempt at a
Posted on: 01/31/2009 15:34
A first attempt at a communion liturgy that 'repositions'.
Christ's peace - r
Invitation
Greeting:
One: God is with you.
All: And also with you.
One: Lift up your hearts.
All: We lift them up to God.
One: Let us give thanks to God, our God!
All: It is right to give God thanks, and praise.
One: It is right, that we should give you thanks, God, most wonderful. For you created all that is - from the tiniest imaginable, to the grandest unknown! You created earth and air and fire and water. You created life - DNA and RNA, cells, multi-cells... plants and animals and us.
Two: For a time, we knew our place in your creation. As one with the birds of the air, the fish of the sea, the creepies that crawled under the earth, and the creatures that walked on it. Part of this wonder of your love.
All: Alleluia!
One: But, though we grew in knowledge, we did not grow as quickly in wisdom. Our desire for “more”, for “better”, for “bigger”, for “newer” - helped us to believe that we were above the rest of your creation - that we were above each other... and, sometimes, that we were above You.
Two: And the harmony you created - the harmony you create - was broken.
All: Forgive us, God.
Two: Forgive us, God. You sent prophets, and priests, men and women, and children - to open our eyes again. To help us to see that we needed to be in relationship with each other, with creation, with You... that all might be whole. All: Forgive us, God.
One: Forgive us, God. But we didn't listen. Often, still, we don't listen - to each other, to creation, to You. (pause) But, still, you love us! You love with a love that is beyond imagining! You love with a love that calls us back to hope and life and wholeness. You love with a love that rebuilds our bonds with each other, with creations, with You. Alleluia!
All: ALLELUIA!
One: When the time was right, you shared with us the Christ - one with creation, One with You - Holy Wisdom, Love Divine... Emmanual. He was born in the same way we were born. His mother loved him. He laughed, he cried, he learned, he loved. And, with his words and his actions, he called us back into relationship - with each other -
Two: “Love one another, as I have loved you.”
One: With creation -
Two: “Love God, love the Other as you love yourself.”
One: With You!
Two: On the night before he was killed, for what he believed and taught - he gathered with his friends, people who had walked the long road with him, people who had listened and learned, and taught with his authority. They gathered for a meal of remembrance. A meal of hope. A meal of love.
One: Jesus gave thanks to You, saying, “Blessed are you, God most Holy, who brings the grain from the earth.” He celebrated the gift of creation, even as he was part of it. He broke the bread and gave it to those gathered, saying, “Take this, all of you, and eat. This is my body, which I give to you. Remember me.”
Two: When the meal was done, Jesus gave thanks to you, saying, “Blessed are you, God most Holy, who bring the fruit from the soil.” He celebrated the gift of creation, even as he was part of it. He took a cup, brimming with wine, and gave it to those gathered, saying, “Take this, all of you, and drink. This is the cup of my promise. Given for you, given for all. Each time you drink of it – remember me.”
One: So we eat and drink and remember.
Two: We eat and drink and remember.
All: We eat and drink and remember - Christ's love, Your love - for us, for all people, for all of creation.
One: God of the heavens, God of the earth, God of every thing, God of all creation - we ask that you send your Spirit upon us, and upon these gifts of bread and cup - that we might remember of what we are a part - your great creation; and Christ's great love!
Two: In remembrance of who we are, and whose we are, we pray together the words Jesus taught us: Our...
Breaking the Bread / Lifting the Cup
Sharing the Gifts
Prayer after Communion