rishi's picture

rishi

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An invitation to discussion, dialogue, debate

 

Hi Everyone,

 

This is a friendly invitation to a friendly discussion, dialogue, debate on the subject of atonement, in relation to a paper just posted on my blog:

 

God is Not An Alpha Dog:  An Alternative Orthodox View of Atonement

 

It challenges both some liberal and some conservative ideas about atonement, and my hope is that in talking about it together we will all help one another to learn something new about this topic.

 

If you're interested, please post your responses there on the blog  (not here) to keep it organized.

 

 

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stardust's picture

stardust

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Hi rishi Your posts are very

Hi rishi

Your posts are very interesting and informative. I always read them.

 

 

Just as an aside I did want to mention to you that if you aren't getting an overwhelming response its not because we're all asleep. Rather its because your wonderful topics have already been covered x number of times on the WC.

 

The WC is running since Nov.'06 and it is one of the most active forums I know of on the world wide web. It started off with 4000 some members during the first month or so. I've no idea what the number of members may be now.

 

I don't mean to discourage you. There are many lurkers  reading here who don't post or reply so your information is always valuable. I was just thinking you might get discouraged and wonder why so many of us oldies on the WC may be silent.

 

Keep up the good work!  Your knowledge is a goldmine!

rishi's picture

rishi

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Thanks, Stardust. That was

Thanks, Stardust. That was very kind of you. 

 

But do the oldies here really have the theology of atonement all figured out?  Or has it just been put in a box never again to be thought about anew?

stardust's picture

stardust

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rishi Gosh! I shouldn't speak

rishi

Gosh! I shouldn't speak up for all of the oldies!

 

I'm referring perhaps to those who are reading  or have read Borg, Spock, Crossan etc. We've had a fair number of threads about the works of  these authors and those in the progressive or emerging camps  ( if my terminology is correct) like what they have to say. Sorry, I didn't read your blog but I believe your thoughts are similiar?

 

Jim Kenney's picture

Jim Kenney

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Hi Rishi, I don't have time

Hi Rishi,

I don't have time to read your paper, but I have never been able to wrap my mind around the concept of God as a Pawnbroker god or as a god subject to some perverse philosophical rule that would require such a sacrifice--that is if you are writing about the crucifixion.

In personal relationships, atonement is one part of healing relationships, along with things like apologies.  I apologize for guessing what your paper was about without reading it.  Maybe later.

Shalom

Alex's picture

Alex

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Good blog. However it leaves

Good blog. However it leaves me with one question. How does this distinguish and raises Jesus up above others who did the same things he did. Ghandi, Martin Luthor King and even Harvey Milk were all men who stood up to the authorities of their day. All of them knew that by speaking and acting out against against tradition and authority that they were at risk of being killed as a result. King especially  knowingly put himself in high risk situations of being killed.

 

All inspired others to go on and fight for change.

 

However no one has every suggested that they were letting themselves be put in situations to be sacrificed, just that their concious and there believe in the goodness of humanity would prevail if people stood up and spoke the truth. They were willing to die to be able to speak the truth but I do not believe that they associated it with atoning for the sinfullness of humanity. Albeit one could argue that they might have believed they would contribute to the end of divisions in between humanity, or between some humans and the truth.

 

So what is it about Jesus's  death that seperates him from the others. What is it about Jesus that makes him special, so special that not only would his message survive but that would cause the creation of a new religion.

 

He was not the first to let himself be killed for his principles either. Socrates comes to mind as someone who pre-dates Jesus.

 

This is from someone who does not understand atonement theology at all. I was never taught it in my UCC Sunday Scools, nor have I ever heard it preached from the pulpit. The only times I hear my Theology professors address( I am a studing philosophy at a Catholic University, and have only taken a few courses in theology which are required for me to get my BA in philosophy, and they either teach liberation theology or Lonergan)  it , is when they are pointing out what a mistake it was for Christians to adopt it.

 

rishi's picture

rishi

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Great question, Alex. I hope

Great question, Alex. I hope others respond to it with their views as well.

 

I think first of all it's important to say that the term "atonement theology" is like the term "Christian theology"; it's an umbrella category with many different varieties underneath.  So I'm guessing that your theology prof was suggesting that certain kinds of atonement theology were a mistake for the church to adopt.  (For example, Lonergan's understanding of religious conversion is based on a type of atonement theology rooted in Aquinas that suggests faith, hope, and love are transcendental realities which radically alter the course of human development for the better. So that is an example of atonement theology that your prof might be more inclined toward.)

 

Maybe a good way to think about your question is to imagine a continuum of views. On the South end of the continuum is the view of Jesus as a great man, much like Ghandi and Martin Luther King were great men.  On the North end of the continuum is the view of Jesus as the one and only, wholly human, wholly divine, son of the Living God.  The atonement theologies that are often stongly opposed by progressive theologians, both Catholic and Protestant, tend to be the ones that fall on the extreme North end of the continuum. There, for example, the blood of Jesus is not a symbol of a subtle spiritual reality, but a literal world-saving substance that purifies the sinful bodies and souls of fallen humanity.  Having said that, though, the atonement theologies at the far South end of the continuum are just as problematic.  There, for example, the blood of Jesus can become a metaphor for something like class consciousness, which empowers the underclass to realize their domination by the elite and to rebel against it for their fair share of society's resources.  So the blood of Che Guevarra, for example, has the same metaphorical power as the blood of Jesus. At this end, you end up with a completely flat, modernist understanding of life. No Trancendence.

 

So, an easy solution to these extremes is to say that a balanced theology is somewhere in the hypothetical middle.  I  think this is probably the typical UCC stance, although I've heard both extremes  in the UCC as well.

 

From my perspective (which I'm trying to sort out in this blog with others help) there is a problem with that whole North/South continuum and how it understands human nature.  I think the process of atonement, like human beings themselves, is inter-subjective.  It happens in the space between persons, rather than through a kind of spiritual injection of each individual with the saving blood of Christ, on the one hand, or through protest and policy development, on the other. It's much more subtle than either of those extremes.  A good example of this is seen in how infants and parents shape one another's experience for better and for worse.  Human nature is not enclosed within the skin of each individual human being, like that North/South continuum imagines it to be. There is an in-between space which, though invisible, is very real. That is where, in my experience, we encounter God. It is where the Kingdom of God is, because it is where at-one-ment happens.

 

Another thought, Alex, since we both affirm a place of dignity for GLBT persons in the church -- consider the differences between arriving at that affirming position out of an ideological commitment and out of an intersubjective experience of at-one-ment in relation to marginalized persons. I would argue that Jesus' way was not the former but the latter, and that these two ways lead to very different kinds of places .

rishi's picture

rishi

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The Squire wrote: God is not

The Squire wrote:

God is not an Alpha Dog. God is the Alpha Dog. He is the Alpha and Omega Dog, Most High, Lord of Hosts, Name Above All Names ... so who could possibly be greater than He? Who could possibly come before Him?

 

 

How does that God help us in our every day relationships with other people?

Motheroffive's picture

Motheroffive

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rishi wrote: Another thought,

rishi wrote:

Another thought, Alex, since we both affirm a place of dignity for GLBT persons in the church -- consider the differences between arriving at that affirming position out of an ideological commitment and out of an intersubjective experience of at-one-ment in relation to marginalized persons. I would argue that Jesus' way was not the former but the latter, and that these two ways lead to very different kinds of places .

 

If I can be permitted to jump in here, Rishi, I agree that Jesus' way would have been the latter but...and I'm having trouble figuring out how to put what I'm trying to convey so bear with me...we need to create a space whereby all people are greeted and interacted with from a place of deep acceptance but also we also need to define the parameters of acceptance for those who haven't yet entered into that subjective experience of at-one-ment. In other words, although it is to be desired that all are loved, sometimes a set of rules, social norms and/or boundaries can be the starting place.

Arminius's picture

Arminius

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rishi wrote: The Squire

rishi wrote:

The Squire wrote:

God is not an Alpha Dog. God is the Alpha Dog. He is the Alpha and Omega Dog, Most High, Lord of Hosts, Name Above All Names ... so who could possibly be greater than He? Who could possibly come before Him?

 

 

How does that God help us in our every day relationships with other people?

 

Hi Rishi: I am, of course, not answering on behalf of Squire, just offering my own thoughts on the Alpha/Omega God.

 

The Alpha and the Omega in unity constitute the ultimate cosmic synthesis. Within such a God, everything is united and relational. Everyone and everything is a manifestation of God, and our everyday relationships with other people are based on that premise.

rishi's picture

rishi

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Motheroffive wrote: rishi

Motheroffive wrote:

rishi wrote:

Another thought, Alex, since we both affirm a place of dignity for GLBT persons in the church -- consider the differences between arriving at that affirming position out of an ideological commitment and out of an intersubjective experience of at-one-ment in relation to marginalized persons. I would argue that Jesus' way was not the former but the latter, and that these two ways lead to very different kinds of places .

 

If I can be permitted to jump in here, Rishi, I agree that Jesus' way would have been the latter but...and I'm having trouble figuring out how to put what I'm trying to convey so bear with me...we need to create a space whereby all people are greeted and interacted with from a place of deep acceptance but also we also need to define the parameters of acceptance for those who haven't yet entered into that subjective experience of at-one-ment. In other words, although it is to be desired that all are loved, sometimes a set of rules, social norms and/or boundaries can be the starting place.

 

Bingo!  It reminds me of the contrast between the Law spelled out in black and white in a policies & procedures manual, and the fulfillment of the Law within an actually loving heart/mind.

 

Another example from Buddhism:  A practitioner vows to live according to five moral precepts (no killing; no stealing; no verbal exploitation; no emotional-sexual exploitation; no diminishing of self-awareness).  But the irony is that the vows are not possible to keep (!)... without a well deveoped, peaceful mind, which requires meditation, and also reflection on the Buddha's teachings.  The entry point to practice, however, is the moral vows.  So what happens is that you have moral restraint working on one end and practices that reduce the need for moral restraint on the other end.

 

I think we're really good in the UCC at the policy, procedure, moral restraint level.  But I think we have a theological deficiency that leaves us pretty weak on the level of heart transforming practices, spiritual formation, etc..

Motheroffive's picture

Motheroffive

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rishi wrote: Bingo!  It

rishi wrote:

Bingo!  It reminds me of the contrast between the Law spelled out in black and white in a policies & procedures manual, and the fulfillment of the Law within an actually loving heart/mind.

 

 

Yes, me too.

Jim Kenney's picture

Jim Kenney

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rishi wrote   I think we're

rishi wrote

 

I think we're really good in the UCC at the policy, procedure, moral restraint level.  But I think we have a theological deficiency that leaves us pretty weak on the level of heart transforming practices, spiritual formation, etc..

 

Right on!

Pilgrims Progress's picture

Pilgrims Progress

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Hi rishi, This oldie is still

Hi rishi,

This oldie is still working through the theology of atonement.

This is where I'm at now. Atonement means at-one-ment. By that I mean one experiences a sense of unity with everything (God, mankind, nature etc.)

Everyone can relate to these precious moments, when we forget about our own egos, and simply feel a part of everything. Examples that spring to mind are watching a beautiful sunset, listening to music, hugging a loved one. Theologian Frederick Buechner expressed it well when he said, "sudden tears spring to your eyes." Tears are a sure sign of connection or unity.

I describe the above as little atonement. Big atonement is rarer, it's when you have an actual experience of the Divine. In my case, it happened at the time of a "dark night of the soul."

Finally, to me, atonement has nothing to do with sin. The closest I come to that idea is when I feel I've fallen short, and thus feel disconnected from others, God, and life. At-one-ment  happens when I regain my connection with, others, God and life.

rishi's picture

rishi

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Pilgrims Progress wrote: Hi

Pilgrims Progress wrote:

Hi rishi,

This oldie is still working through the theology of atonement.

This is where I'm at now. Atonement means at-one-ment. By that I mean one experiences a sense of unity with everything (God, mankind, nature etc.)

Everyone can relate to these precious moments, when we forget about our own egos, and simply feel a part of everything. Examples that spring to mind are watching a beautiful sunset, listening to music, hugging a loved one. Theologian Frederick Buechner expressed it well when he said, "sudden tears spring to your eyes." Tears are a sure sign of connection or unity.

I describe the above as little atonement. Big atonement is rarer, it's when you have an actual experience of the Divine. In my case, it happened at the time of a "dark night of the soul."

Finally, to me, atonement has nothing to do with sin. The closest I come to that idea is when I feel I've fallen short, and thus feel disconnected from others, God, and life. At-one-ment  happens when I regain my connection with, others, God and life.

 

Hi Pilgrim,

 

I left you a response to this on the blog.

 

Cheers,

Rishi

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