rishi,

I'd say this would be an invaluable opportunity to make a new friend :3

Just a self-writing poem,

Inannawhimsey

Ah, Grasshopper,  You have reached Level 100 in your spiritual abilities!!  It will be interresting to see how you adapt to the others' screaming need to have you agree with them.  You will have to learn how to absorb the blows of condemnation for your viewpoints, be brave enough to be yourself in front of them and not be like them, just to get them to soften up a little bit!  This must be done without causing the other to become frightened.  It is an amazing dance!  I find I'd rather have a beer and watch stupid T.V.....I'm not proud of this......it's just too overwhelming......in Psych 101, I was taught that there are behaviors which cause others to pull back instead of approach.....At Level 100, you must approach and, eventually, be filled with praise and thankfulness!!  Can't do it yet.

I struggle with this as one who thinks they understand some buddhist precepts about not attaching to concepts -- not hanging on to your "truth" like a dog with a bone, and realizing that one is shadow-dancing in these downwardly spiralling exercises.

"Your worst enemy is your best friend".

It would be great if someone could just enter the room and clap their hands.

Is holding something patiently and gently the same as tacit approval to a perceived wrong? .  How would having no agenda in a community like this look?

The trouble with traditional Christian language is that it is not phrased in such a way that makes it easily recognizable as metaphorical.

On the contrary, much of our liturgy, scripture, and hymns is phrased to be taken literally.

I do take all of it metaphorically, of course, and the metaphors are profound indeed. But, as I said, much of the language is designed to be taken literallly, and can be seen as biased or absurd when taken literally.

Names don't need changing—our awareness does! And, once our awareness is changed, then we are less sensitive with regards to phraseology, and can change it gradually.

Throwing out the Jesus baby together with the dirty bath water is not the way to go.

Yes, Rishi, I quite agree. Unfortunately, far too many people still take the literal sounding language of liturgy literally, and either become fundamentalist absolutists or are severely turned off by it. Gretta Vosper together with her West Hill congregation and her book "With or Without God" are an expression of that turnoff.

Unfortunately, those who are turned off by the literal expressions of traditional religion often turn to modern day literal expressions, and thus perpetuate the dilemma of literalism.

If we go for the underlying spiritual experience, then any metaphor to express it is fine, and we might as well retain the profound traditional metaphors that have made us shudder with awe for the past 2,000 years. 

"Transformation", it seems to me, is exactly what the church corporate cannot do. After all, if Jesus couldn't transform Judaism and instead ended up with another religion (or, to be more precise, was killed by the powers-that-were and Paul created a new religion). one of the limitations that folks like Borg, and even for that matter regular ol' preachers in the pulpit, have is that they can only go so far without risk of rebellion on the part of their audience.

my point exactly, although i'm quite sure that he phrased it as a name for a Christian movement

No one would ever accuse you of being overly simplistic my friend

Overly optimistic may be another thing.  I hear what you're saying, but it seems to me that much of the grassroots is just as intransigent as the most dogmatic priest. One of the reasons that every religion has sects or schools or denominations is that "transformation" generally translates into separation. At least, so it seems to me.

Perhaps I'm overly pessimistic.

Hi IWonder, 

Yes, generally speaking, these views are held by individuals identifying as progressive Christians.   There is much commonality in what they seek to move beyond. 

Marcus Borg is being most gracious in his comments about avoiding infighting, but it seems to me he has wound up in a very different place than Gretta Vosper.  She specifically rejects many of his ideas in her book. 

Borg might not be aware of this as yet, if he is still learning about Vosper and her theology.

Hi rishi

Sorry to disappoint you, but actually I am from Woodstock which is about 40 minutes down 401 from London.   We are working hard to create a progressive presence in Woodstock, and we had at least 16 of us "Woodstonians" attending the Borg event.

One of my goals is to nurture a progressive presence in some of the smaller communities outside the GTA.    In Toronto with over 2,000,000 people there is no problem meeting the needs of progressives because there is such a huge population to draw from.  However in Woodstock, with its 35,000 population there are only a few progressives in each congregation so it is much more difficult to draw them into a cohesive community.

One of the impressive things about the Borg event was that there were over 400 people pre-registered for this two day event, PLUS many more "walk-ins".   The church was packed!   Harry MacLean, who was the driving force in the Borg event at Wesley-Knox, did a superb job of organization and publicity.   Harry is just as passionate as I am in setting up a progressive community and networking in the London area and surroundings.   This is why he asked interested folks to submit their names to a database so that we can communicate better about upcoming events and perhaps set up monthly meetings for progressive thinkers in this area.  I am very excited about it!

As Borg indicated, not all streams of progressive consciousness are the same, and we do have our disagreements.  But we do share so much in common that it is far better to work together, than to become fractured by those few things we disagree on.

I have studied Spong extensively and read some of Vosper's book "With or Without God' and have difficulty with some of their ideas.  Yes, the image of God as a detatched remote judge, occassionally pulling strings doesn't work for me.  The idea of God as 'The Ground of Being' is also too abstract for me..  How does it give me inner strength when my life is falling apart?   Both would say there is no one to offer support.  I see it slightly different.

Borg talks about panentheism:  how God is both immenant and transendent.  I am having trouble understanding the transcendence of God but the immenance of God makes a lot of sense to me.  Andrew Greeley in his book "The Catholic imagination talks about how, generally speaking, the Catholic hierarchy and many Protestents put more emphasis on the transcendence of God but ordinary Catholics emphasize the immenance of God--how God is experienced lurking within Creation.

I think many of the ecologist and feminist theologians take Borg's ideas of panentheism further.  Jame Lovelock, an ealy ecologist in the sixities, takes about the earth being a living organism and calls it Gia  and how as a living organism the earth responds to what is being done to it..  Bian Swimme, a geophycisit, in his book "The Earth is Green Dragon'  talks about how the earth was created by the Great Flaming Forth and how through the process photosynthesis, this flame continues to animate the earth including Human Being's who became the self-reflective consciousness of the earth.  Tom Harpur in his book 'Water into Wine' taks about Christ being the imminant light of the world. In the Eucharist/communion we say that bread and wine, the life-giving nutrients of the earth. are the body and blood of Christ.

Elizabeth A. Johnson, in "She who is" talks about how God shares in our suffering as part of the labour process of giving birth to the world.  My experience of suffering is that it is a necessary part of the process of giving birth, creativity and transformation.  When I see myself as part of  this birthing process of God,  I am more able to aceept suffering or struggle with it with Grace.  Most scientist would agree that the suffering of evolution and life eating life are all part of the natural process of ecology. 

 Some of the early Christian Gnostics also believed that Sophia, the feminine aspect of God, was the womb of the earth.  The earth as definitely animated as a living organism.  Whether this animation come from God's breath, light or electromagnism or all three, I don't know enough science to say but their is definitely a living animation that comes from a Source.  We all share in this process of the living organism we call earth, Gia, Sophia or God.  How this animation extends to the cosmos, I don't yet understand.

I have been thinking about this for a long time and am grateful for the opportunity to summarize these ideas.

Hi rishi

I totally agree with you that Marcus Borg has an impeccable scholarly reputation and any kudos along those lines are well deserved.  He also has been deeply immersed in the Christian Church for most of his life.  When I was talking to him I praised him for his "kinder and gentler" approach to Progressive Christianity and there is no doubt that he has a strong appeal to people who are deeply rooted in the Christian tradition.   I believe that his gentler, less strident approach and his method of reworking the language which life-long Christians are familiar with, has enabled many Christians to make an easier transition to Progressive Christianity.   He has wide appeal, and I deeply admire him.  His lectures were insightful.

One of the interesting things about the Borg event was that, by his informal survey, approximately 99% of the participants admitted belonging to one of the traditional mainstream Christian churches.   There was only a miniscule minority that admitted to being atheist, agnostic or part of "the church alunni association".   So it is clear that his use of, and reinterpretation of traditional language would resonate more deeply with that group.

Spong and Vosper do not have Borg's scholarly credentials, but I see them both as invaluable to the progressive movement.   Spong of course has a vast body of writings including about 20 books over nearly 40 years.   His approach is more strident than Borg's and appeals to a somewhat different group, but there is no doubt that his writings have probably brought an awareness of Progressive Christianity more than any other living author.  

Vosper is cast more in the mold of Spong, and in fact credits Spong as one of her major influences.  She is much younger than Spong and of course has neither the vast body of work or the years of experience that he has.   However, I am delighted and proud that our United Church has the fortitude and the vision to continue to support the ministry of people like Gretta who are always pushing the envelope and challenging us to think.

As you suggest in your post, the label "Unitarian" has often been advanced to describe Vosper's approach.  Spong has also faced this kind of suggestion.   I believe that neither of them are uncomfortable with this, or see it as some kind of put-down.   But both of them have deep Christian roots and connections, and both of them have had life experiences that have led them into the difficult, yet honest search for meaning in their spiritual lives.

So, I don't know whether I am a voice crying in the wilderness or not, but I truly believe that we need people like Borg, Crossan, Spong, and Vosper to challenge us and to give us alternatives that go beyond our comfort level.

SNP: your quote

Yikes! I remember!  You're not being ignored are you ....lol!

  I read all of these books as food for thought but when it comes to the Holy Spirit there's nobody who brings the Holy Spirit closer than Jimmy Swaggart....yes truly .... he's the most beautiful singer this side of heaven!

Come Holy Spirit.....Come ....

OK SNP ....

I don't care what anyone says about him he's a good singer. Here's another one I just love! It plays on Quick Time.

Sometimes Allelulia

Borg did a series of talks with Brian McLaren (A generous orthodoxy) and Diana Butler Bass (Christianity for the rest of us). They see the work they are all doing as being three strands in the same rope. You can view the whole event which was held at Harvard Divinity School at

http://www.hds.harvard.edu/news/events_online/FindingOurWay01.html

Rev. James Murray

Thanks!

I listened to the video and then I clicked on "Events online". What a website!  There's such a huge variety of interesting lectures.