Quote:

(GodConsciousness @ May 07, 2010, 10:33 PM)

"... And yet... to think that the universe is 93 billion light years across and expanding faster than the speed of light is just simply mind blowing! ..."

GC, I agree. It prompts me to ask: What do we, including atheists, call that infinity and eternity into which the universe is expanding? Do we call it nothing? Or Nothing? What evidence is there that life and consciousness, collectively and individually, ends in nothingness?
 

I suspect that only people who are totally evil--psycho and sociopaths, with no sense of justice and fair play--hope this is true. Yes, I suppose there are many who believe: "Only fools believe that eventually there will be justice and fair play for all. Therefore, it is best to live high and get it all, now--even at the expense of others, especially those who refuse to serve us." I wonder: Do they also believe that the goal of life is, live fast, avoid all pain, die young, and have a good-looking corpse? Not very rational, it seems to me.
 

I like to think that motivated by love--simple good will--all things are evolving to that which true, beautiful and good. Call it what you will, but may I claim the freedom to live on the basis that there is no end to love, life and consciousness; there is only evolution of life? And may I call it GOD? If this is an illusion, no one, including the New Atheists, will ever know. Thank GOD!

In Latin there are two basic words for faith: FIDUCIA--faith involving active trust, not just FIDES--simply believing without action. Believing there is a God--evil people and hypocrites can do this and create god in their own image--is not the same as living ones life, day by day, in GOD and being G0d-filled, aware, conscious and loving.
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In my opinion, having an active faith in that which could be, and for me is, rational, good and true are the very nutrients on which the process of evolution feeds and could eventually help us fill the universe with consciousness--GOD?

This kind of fiduciary faith is one that is love and action-based, I think of it as the basic food on which we grow evolve our future and spiritual bodies. Of course we need to avoid false beliefs, but believing in and feeding on nothing at all, for me, makes no sense at all. It is a false belief! Even if we lived for an average of 100 years--not impossible, with today's science--compared to eternity, it would simply make for a very bleak and short future. Not very appealing at all!
 

Does Reason Know What It Is Missing?
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Check out the highly regarded German philosopher and sociologist, Jurgen Habermas, a former agnostic who now, in his 80's, sees the value of sound and healthy religion:
http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/...?pagemode=print

MY LAST COMMENT RE-EDITED:

This kind of fiduciary faith (FF) is one that is love-and-action based. I think of FF as the basic food on which we can grow evolve our spiritual bodies. Of course we need to avoid false beliefs, but believing in and feeding on nothing at all, for me, makes no sense at all. I think of it as a very false and fatal kind of mental and spiritual anorexia.

By the way, the material sciences--which I agree are very valuable tools--hold out the promise that a few of us could live for an average of about 100 to 120 years as physical bodies, with no guarantee that we will remain in robust health. Then, for everyone, will come death--the end of self consciousness.

Meanwhile, most of us--as quite a number of my own family already have done--will have to put up with living short, miserable and despair-filled lives. I don't call that a gift of the sciences, I call it a sordid joke, a dirty trick--a bleak, short and not very appealing future.

There is no comparison between the dead end "gift" as described above and the gift of an eternal life exploring the infinte universe--the gift of Conscious Being, which I feel is the result of practicing a fiduciary and non-sectarian faith fed by hope and love.
 

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Check out the highly regarded German philosopher and sociologist, Jurgen Habermas, a former agnostic who now, in his 80's, sees the value of sound and healthy religion:

Thanks, Arm:

ABOUT FIDUCIARY FAITH--a re-edit of the last part of my last comment:

Fiduciary faith (FF), the kind of which I speak, is one that is love (simple good will)-and-action based. Faith without any action is for hypocrites, including "religious" ones--clergy and laity.

Of course, it is possible for moral, ethical and positive agnostics/atheist to practice FF, without being "religious". They do so everytime they do good philosophy, science, art, justice and tell the truth. But they, too, can be hypocrites. If, hypocrties, happen to be scientists involved in scientific research leading to the production of "valuable" and profitable products, they can, by fudging numbers and the like, be very dangerous hypocrites. Thalidomide, anyone? Fascist dictators have always made full use of all craven religionists, philosophers, scientists and artists they could find to support their sick use of power.
 

Me? I think of FF--and here I am not referring to the doctrines, dogmas, rituals and polities of the religions--as the basic food on which we can grow and evolve our spiritual bodies. Of course we need to avoid what we recognize to be false beliefs. But believing in, and feeding on, nothing at all makes no sense at all, for me. I think of it as a very false and fatal kind of faith--a kind of mental, or spiritual, anorexia.
 

By the way, the material sciences--which I agree can be very valuable tools--hold out the promise that a few of us could live for an average of about 100 to 120 years as physical bodies, with no guarantee that we will remain in robust health. Then, for everyone, will come death--the end of self consciousness.
 

Meanwhile, unless there are dramatic changes in the way we do politics and economics, most of us human beings--as quite a number of my own family and friends already have done--in recent history will have to put up with living short, miserable and despair-filled lives. I don't call this a gift of the sciences--and certainly not a gift of any god I respect--I call it a sordid joke, a dirty trick--promising a bleak, short and not very appealing future. To which I say: No thanks!

There is no comparison between the dead-end "gift", as described above, and the gift of an eternal life exploring and participating in the evolution of the infinite universe. I think of it as the gift of being able to relate to Conscious Being--of which we are one. I feel this gift is the result of practicing a fiduciary and non-sectarian, positive, democratic and all-inclusive faith--including the universe and all in it--which is nourished by a sincere and beautiful hope and empowered by love, the highest good.

Thanking Arm for his answer, in case someone missed it, again I ask:

Does Reason Know What It Is Missing?
-----------------------------------------------
Check out the highly regarded German philosopher and sociologist, Jurgen Habermas, a former agnostic who now, in his 80's, sees the value of sound and healthy religion:
http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/...?pagemode=print

LET'S TALK ABOUT WARS--WITHIN THE SELF, THE FAMILY, AND SOCIETY
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For better or for worse, as a human Being, or self, I think of myself as a spiritual Being with an animal-like mind and body.
 

Yes, from the past I have inherited animal-like drives and instincts, which, depending on how they are used, can empower me, or destroy me--at least for now.
 

Yes, in the present, I am influenced by my animal instincts. This is why how I handle them, and my physical and mental circumstances, in the present, is so important.
 

How I do so will determine whether or not they are tools of peace or war--war with self, family and others--now, or in the future. So much depends on who I am as a spiritual and G0d-like Being; and the choices I make as a human Spirit who wants to be at one with GOD.
 

In the 1960's, I was guided, led, inspired,whatever you want to call it, to lecture on what I then called 'pneumatology'--the study of the Spirit.
 

Later, I discovered that, in the 16th Century, pneumatology--the same kind of study of the Spirit, of the Real Self--mentioned above was a basic course in many European universities.
 

Interestingly, in Thornhill United Church--the church I now attend--a few months ago, the Spirit, I assume, led me to discover the story of THE ENNEAGRAM INSTITUTE. Anyone else heard of it? The following will tell you more of what it is all about.

=======================
THE ENNEAGRAM INSTITUTE

http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/
http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/store/comersus_viewItem.asp?idProduct=14

In my reading of the basic book I am happy to see that the authors are not cultists. They encourage readers to think, critically, and for themselves, seek balance and be aware of being aware.
 

Me? I see myself in all the nine points. Enneagram means nine points.
 

Interestingly, Russo was a Jesuit priest for 13 years.

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BTW, Jean and I will be leaving, by car, on Wednesday next, for a trip--7 to 10 days--to the Maritimes. There, we will visit family and the Convocation at our Alma Mater, Mount Allison http://www.mta.ca Jean--with the Class of 1950--will celebrate 60 years as an alumnus. My 60th will be next year.

CROSSHATCH (CH), an agnostic, and I are having a very interesting and polite dialogue at the ATHEIST/AGNOSTIC FORUM. Feel free to join in.

http://forums.about.com/n/pfx/forum.aspx?tsn=217&nav=messages&webtag=ab-...

Below we talk about the Greeks, and about Superstition.

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CH, in reference to our dialogue about the ancient Greeks, you ask:

Who am I to judge them?
Who does one HAVE to be?

Important rhetorical questions, which you and I, I am sure, will answer for ourselves, by the way we live our lives.

Me? Naturally I admire--and I presume you do too--the, "relative handful of Greeks (who) were unsurpassed in their brilliance ..."

Looking back--though I make no claim to being a Greek scholar--I assume this is what inspired me to learn enough Greek so as to be able at least to read the Greek New Testament in Koine, used by the writers of the Gospels and by Paul.

Pretty well all our European languages contain numerous words with Greek and/or Latin roots. I leave the complexities of grammar and the conjugation of verbs to skilled linguists, but for me, understanding how to get at the root meanings of nouns and verbs is essential to any kind of meaningful communication.

Even as an octogenarian--notice the Greek and Latin-based word--I love to make frequent use of Greek, Latin and French dictionaries.
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koine_Greek

CH, of the Greeks you say, "They were incredibly superstitious."

Of course! Thanks for pointing us to this word, CH.

SUPERSTITION--the religion for people who do not want to think.

I cannot think of any culture, or religion--past or present--which is based purely on reason. Can you? Perhaps Unitarians and Unitheists do their best to avoid superstitions.

It seems to me that all cultures and religions are infected by the 'virus'--Or is it meme?--of superstition.

Now, if we agree on this, let us take a look at what the word 'superstition' means.

My trusty World Book Dictionary says that it means: an unreasoning awe and fear of something unknown, mysterious, or imaginary, especially in connection with religion. It is worship based on fear or ignorance. The great British parliamentarian, Edmund Burke called it: The religion of feeble minds. Superstition is an irrational belief, tenet or scruple founded on fear or ignorance.

This is true whether or not religion is involved. For example, many non-religionists fear using the number 13, the Greek for which is triskaidekaphobia--tris meaning "3," kai meaning "and," and deka meaning "10" + phobia, fear.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triskaidekaphobia

Most cultures and religions have their superstitions. However, most modern religions, especially the progressive kind, abhor superstitions.

For every Democritus or Archimedes, there were 10,000 Joe the Plumbers.

Yes, CH, but for me, the bottom line is this: regardless of race, class or creed, the goal of progressive religion is helping people be rational, moral, ethical, humane and descent human beings.

Then you added the thought:

Quote:

... Yes, with GOD we are co-creators of the future!

 

I always thought that a prophesy was not foretelling but creating the future. But if a prophecy touches the divine in us, then we feel inspired to carry it out. This is how prophecies come true!

 

For instance, the "new heaven and the new earth" of Revelation is a powerfully inspirational prophecy to me, and I feel moved to carry it out. If enough of us feel that way, then the prophecy will come true.

So am I.

You are also seem to be interested in a world in which the Word--the Koine-Greek for which is Logos--becomes FLESH--that is, a Freedom & Love-filled Earth, Shared Holistically.

With the above in mind, and with the help of GOD, let us be bold enough to assume that, as ministers of GOD, we are part of this great and wonderful process of helping to make the world a better place--a virtual Garden of Eden.

How, by helping to bring together members of all races, classes and creeds, including, secularists, agnostics/atheists--those who may bwe skeptical of all creeds--in helping to make the world such a wonderful garden. Not just the chosen few, but for each and everyone ofo us. It was with this in mind that--inspired by my minister and school teachers--that I became a student for the UC ministry in 1947. When did you first start?

By the way, in my re-directment (since 1994)--a word I prefer to use rather than retirement--my loves are the following arts: the art of counselling (for the Family Life Foundation), painting (i.e., with small brushes and spatulas--small trowels); writing and gardening.

ARM, WITH THE ABOVE AND THE UP-COMING G-20 SUMMIT ON THE WORLD ECONOMIES, IN TORONTO, IN MIND ...

And speaking of gardening, Arm, just this AM, as I was working in my garden--that is, in my particular part of the Garden of Eden--in Hebrew it simply means a pleasant place--as I thought about the up-coming G-20 Summit, the following GOD-given "how-come" questions came to me:

1. How come that after thousands of years, about two-thirds of our fellow human beings still live in underdevloped countries in Africa,  Asia,  Africa and Latin America?

2. How come that in the same underdeveloped nations, there are a few who live in great and opulent luxury?

3. How come that, even in rich and well-developed nations like Canada, the USA, Britain and the like, too many, especially among aboriginal people, still live in grinding poverty and lack? And then there are the poor--the "white trash"--including us, and some of our relatives.

I know the feeling. As number seven of a family of eight, I grew up in Old Number One. It was called this because it was the site, in 1895, of the first iron ore mine on Bell IsIand, Conception Bay,   www.bellisland.net 

Looking back, I remember # 1 as an exceptionally beautiful--not in the pretty sense--and rugged area. It still is. However, economically speaking, living conditions were for many of us close to third-world conditions. For too many, it was below what we call the poverty level.

Keep in mind that Newfoundland/Labrador was then, and still is, England's oldest colony. Believe it or not, except for those of Irish descent--and they had their reasons--British-born  N/L-anders had an innate love for "mother" country. And despite the bitter winter weather, we also loved the land of which we sang the folling Lyrics:

Now, thanks to the development of its oil resources, N/L has even surpassed Ontario. It has become a "have" province.

Back in the thirties, the wealth it had was based on the fishery, on its minerals, hydo and forestry resources, which were then owned and operated by the rich and powerful--local and foreign--few locally, and from who knows where. Then, the many of us (about 225, 000 at the time), if we could get a job, were happy to work as wage slaves for that wealthy few--the owners of the fishery, the forestry and the mining industries.

MY CHRONLOGY

Born in 1930, I lived in Old Number One until 1938, when the family moved to the new home--uninsulated, no basement and sparsely furnished--we built by ourselves.

In 1946/1947, right after high school, as a labourer for a merchant, I was paid $15.00 for a 60-hour week. About halfway through that year, with the help of my minister, the Rev. Reg Rowsell, I got as job as a mining-labourer--picking rock out of iron ore.  I made $38.00 for a 60 hour week. That year, with the help of my older brother and family, who gave me "free" food and lodging, I saved $500.00 cash. At that time, it paid for the first half/year of  university. With this I took the risk and went to Canada, as a migrant. The two-day iron-ore boat ride to North Sydney, NS, cost me about two days pay--$10.00. The sea was rough for much of the trip.

This prompts the question: How come our money became a victim of infaltion and keep on losing it value? This is especially serious when wages fail to rise in keeping with costs.

The cause of inflation is? The short answer is: Interest!

Money without interest added, will maintain it value--as it did for centuries before the money-manipulators got their hands on the levers of power. At this point, I will say no more than this: Interest debases value.

This is why the ancient Jews abhored it. Read Deuteronomy 23:19 and following, Psalm 15, Nehemiah 5, etc., and the story of Jesus attacking the moneychangers--collaboraters with the Roman oppressors--at the central and Temple bank in Jerusalem.  He called them "thieves". This act got him arrested and crucified.

So do modern Muslims. 

BTW, I recall that it was with a feeling of resentment in our voices that those of us who were among the have-nots in NL--especially the many who, during the "dirty thirites', were without full employment--referred to the haves among us, sneeringly, as the "merchant class". Every town and outport had a merchant or two. Of course not all the rich behaved like Scrooge. There were good and generous merchants, but many were, for the most part, the agents of the wealthiest and most powerful Water-street merchants--those who lived in St. John's. I suppose that some of them were also generous. But, in my opinion, for the most part, the system was rotten. 

BTW 2, naturally, many the foods and goods that people wanted could not be produced in NL. They had to be imported from outside N/L and had to come in through the port of St. John's. There, import taxes were added. understandably, this cost was passed on those who bought the goods. Can you imagine what this added to the cost of having large families.

In 1949, confederation with Canada--which us students at my university and others in the Maritimes help come about--did help solve some of our economic problems. But much remains to be done, and for Canada and the world as a whole.

See below for how many people had to earn their living. The following are modern boats are fishing for shrimp and the like, way out to sea. They are owned by the few who can afford them. Can you imagine having to do this in the day of sail?

WE LOVE THEE? WINDSWEPT LAND? OH YEAH!

The good news is: This way of life inspired people to help one another, to barter with one another. Bartering with an older brother helped me save enough to get a start and away to university. I earned the rest of the year while at university. The following years were paid for with help from two summers in army training, one in the navy, and there were summers spent on mission fields in Dundurn, Saskatchewan and Bible Hill, Nova Scotia. In Dundurn, I conducted the funeral of an elderly man. Before he died (well over 85) he told me he (in his teens) and his father--shot when he was 90--had been members of the Jesse James. Quite a story. My second funeral was of a Sioux Indian woman. Her father fought Custard's cavalary at Little Big Horn. 

While in the navy, forty of us got a training cruise, on a WW 2 Frigate, the Swansea--accompanied by another frigate, La Hulloise and a destrloyer, the Crescent, to England and Wales, which I consider part of my education. While in Bible Hill, NS, Jean and I (both 22) married. I was from N/L, she from NB, and we honeymooned at PEI. That will be 58 years ago, Sept. 8. Ordained in 1953, my debt was $125.00, which Jean paid out of money she earned, in Halifax, while I completed my studies there, at http://www.astheology.ns.ca  Pine Hill, The Atlantic School of Theology.

 Back to the economy in N/L: With no funeral homes, in most places, people had to help each other with things like burying the dead. They helped one another build houses, boats and the like; even with the mending shoes and clothes, and the cutting of one anothers hair. Though I grew up in the second-largest town in NL--10,000 people (2,100 miners), with two barbers--I never went to a barber shop until I got to university. Most people lived from pay check to paycheck.  Lay offs in the 1930's caused a lot of hardships. 

No wonder few had cash enough to be able to afford to go to university.  Expensive travel was for the few. Dental and specialized medical care was not readily available, and was too expensive for many. Doctors did their best, but there were few available when needed.

Ironically, WW 2 brought full employment. Miners were so needed, they were not encouraged to go to war. Again, ironically, during the War, more men, per capita, lost their lives in mine accidents than among those who went to war. In 1942, 69 young merchant seamen lost their lives when, in two attacks--one in the Spring and one in the fall. German subs sank four ore carriers not far from where we lived.  At 12, I saw many of the dead as they were brought ashore, after the attacks, in nearby Lance Cove. One dark morning, we found German rifles--with bolts missing--in the ditch near our house. Something, perhaps our local militia, had scared the German patrol looking for food and/or water from our well. Close!

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NOW LET'S THINK ABOUT SOLUTIONS.

BEFORE WE TALK ABOUT THE GIFTS OF THE MAGI, LET'S ASK: WHO WERE THEY?

1. Despite what it says in the well-loved Christmas carol--We Three Kings of Orient Are--the Bible (Matthew 2: 1-12) simply states that in the days of Herod the king (a puppet of Rome), wise men--today we would call them doctors of philosophy, theology, pneumatology, medicine, science, and the like--came from the East. The Greek is 'magoi apo anatolown'. Here is where we get our word 'magi'.

2. From THE INTERPRETER'S DICTIONARY OF THE BIBLE--a great reference work--there are many stories of wise men, and women, who came from all over the ancient world, not just from east of Jerusalem.

3. But I remind you: Just like today, not all magi were moral, ethical and loving people like those in the Matthew story. Some were charlatans.

4. In Matthew--and this is the only place in the Bible in which the legend of the magi is mentioned--there is no mention of them being three kings, nor is there any mention of their names. By the way, the questions they ask in Matthew indicate that they were, not Jews, but pagans (not used in a degoratory sense).

4. Keep in mind that we are talking about legend here, not about history as we know it. Also, most of our information comes from the writings of Herodotus.

5. Who were the magi? They could have Zoroastrian astrologers from Persia, or shamans from Media, whoever. 

THE GIFTS: GOLD, FRANKINCENSE AND MYRR

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Regardless of who they were, we are told that they brought Jesus three great gifts: gold, frankincense and myrr. In my opinion, gold relates to our material (somatic) well-being; franciscense relates to our mental (psychological) well-being and myrr relates to our spiritual (pneumatological) well-being. Believe, through a strange coincidence: I now have some of each. More on this, as we go along.

BUILDING ON THE ABOVE, I WILL WRITE ABOUT WHAT A GROUP OF US FEEL IS AN INFLATION-FREE KIND OF MONEY. OK?  IF YOU HAVE OTHER ANSWERS YOU FEEL ARE BETTER, YOUR CRITIQUE WILL BE WELCOME.

See my new thread:

GOLD. "TAKE MY SILVER AND MY GOLD ... " are words used in an old hymn.

This statement poses some very important questions: What comes to mind when we think of silver and gold?

What do they symbolize?

To whom are we to give it?

What is the nature and function of giving?

And what do we expect that the "one" who takes it will do with it?

Can you think of other questions?

In the form of a blog my new thread is:

GOLD. "Take my Silver and my Gold" words from an old hymn.

>>To anyone that has seriously studied the 'concept' of God, I think it is quite obvious that God is not a 'being'....

>>As to God being everything good, orderly and desirable, I think that's a great way of putting it.

>>I would also like to think of God as a state. A state of absolute knowledge and thereby absolute equilibrium, absolute tranquility, absolute detachment and total peace.

>>In such a state, nothing can be 'good' or 'bad' as you see everything for what it truly is (much like Neo in 'The Matrix'). You are completely free of your mental fixations and go beyond space and time ...

>>Also, I would like to believe that everything that happens (that we in our myopic vision would term as 'bad' or 'good') is just a struggle to attain the state of equilibrium just like science tells you that every particle is in a constant struggle to reach equilibrium.

>>Of course, in the state of absolute equilibrium, you see EVERYTHING for what it truly is and gain complete control over EVERYTHING since you no more have any mental blocks which gives the idea of God being all powerful (again, much like our Neo).

>>I'm a practicing Hindu ... Hinduism hints towards this idea though it is very surprising how few actually realize this.

>>... Of course, finally, everything Good, Orderly and Desirable would (according to me) tend towards this very idea as I'm pretty sure the 'Good' that you talk about is not the myopic idea of good that the world usually talks about but the ABSOLUTE Good.<<

What a contrast this is from what certain cynical and bitter atheists--Thank GOD they are few in number--have written. Naturally, I thanked Srinivisan for his insightful response.

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Here is the response I got from an atheist in Atheism/Agnostic forum at about.com:

Any theology like yours that is sense-free and semantically-null will also be dogma-free and freedom-giving. Especially for those who use words pathologically idiosyncratically, dishonestly, and deceptively.

What can be more communicatively liberating than being able to use words without the slightest connection to conventional usage or conveying any sense of the meaning of the speaker?