crazyheart's picture

crazyheart

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Is Paul a good role model as leader?

When I read the letter Paul wrote to Timothy, I see that he instructs Timothy to "fight the good fight" and says that he has turned two over to Satan who apparently were dsrupting the faith.

If churches followed this advice, what a mess we would have.

Am I reading it right, do you think?

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JRT's picture

JRT

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  Modern analytical bible

 

Modern analytical bible scholars have intensively studied the text of those epistles that are generally attributed to Paul. By closely examining vocabulary, grammar and thought themes they are in agreement that the following epistles are genuinely from Paul. They are 1 Thessalonians, 1 and 2 Corinthians, Galatians, Philippians, Philemon and Romans. Two more letters, Colossians and 2 Thessalonians are in dispute. Hebrews does not reflect Paul’s style and content whatsoever. Ephesians does not reflect the style of Paul but is very much Pauline in content and is thought to have been written by a close follower of Paul’s. The Pastoral letters (Titus, 1 Timothy and 2 Timothy) are attributed to Paul, but someone writing in Paul’s name wrote them around AD120, some 60 years after Paul’s death. Each letter uses vocabulary Paul is not known to have used; each has a different concept than Paul had of key matters such as faith; and each refers to Paul’s close friends Timothy and Titus in formal rather than friendly terms. They assume that Christian churches are governed by the kind of carefully organized authority structures that developed decades after Paul’s time. They are similar in style and in content and in the issues they raise. Scholars generally believe them to have been written by the same person. In addition two of Paul’s epistles are thought to be composed of what were originally several smaller letters. In particular Philippians is composed of three and 2 Corinthians is composed of six. Chapter 16 of Romans seems to be a later addition but genuinely by Paul.

Rev. Steven Davis's picture

Rev. Steven Davis

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 When I was in theological

 When I was in theological college, Professor John Hurd of Trinity College argued not that 2 Thessalonians was not written by Paul, but that it was in fact written by Paul before 1 Thessalonians.

 

As far as your interpretation, crazyheart, I'm not sure how you're reading it, so you'd have to explain. I agree that the Pastoral Epistles were not likely written by Paul, but whoever the author was I think was reminding us that faith is a struggle, and we must fight the fight in order to stay faithful. I don't think it's a reference to physical combat! Turning some over to Satan is - to me - a reference to excommunication. Paul did support the concept, albeit reluctantly, and only after those who were being disruptive to the faith were warned. Excommunication continues to be practiced by or is at least possible in most churches today to greater or lesser degrees including in the United Church.

Panentheism's picture

Panentheism

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I buy thessalonians two is

I buy thessalonians two is not paul  = two professors at queens have written a great paper on how paul is a good model in the use he made of local existing groups or craft groups or burial groups to build on - he was contextual and open to pluralism in method.   i cannot locate the paper buried in my files -

Panentheism's picture

Panentheism

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Also Crossan an Borg;s book

Also Crossan an Borg;s book on Paul makes the same point on Paul's method.... first paul.

Olivet_Sarah's picture

Olivet_Sarah

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I agree with what has been

I agree with what has been pointed out here that Paul, the Paul we know as 'authentic', is indeed a good role model. Some who wrote in his name - including some published as him in the Biblical canon - not so much.

GRR's picture

GRR

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crazyheart wrote: Is Paul a

crazyheart wrote:

Is Paul a good role model as leader?

To pick up on what others have said about Paul's authorship, I would suggest that, if we simply accepted everything attributed to Paul as "Paul", the answer would be "not so much,"

 

If we look at the "thread of Paul" - in other words, take all of the various bits and pieces and put them into chronological order (as much as possible) we get a picture of how the leadership was changing and adapting and dealing with issues that arose as the "church" came into being.

 

That's a dynamic picture of "Paul" as role model, and one that opens the door to our own "Pauline letters" today.

David

Arminius's picture

Arminius

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Those of Paul's Letters that

Those of Paul's Letters that have been authenticated are the only Christian documents that authentically date back to Jesus' time, and for this reason alone are extremely valuable!

Apart from that, Paul seems to have tailored his letters to fit his audience, which was largely Hellenistic/Roman. I think he almost singelhandedly transformed what had hitherto been a largely Judaic movement into a Grecco/Roman religion.

 

Was he a good role model as a leader? I don't know, but he appears to have been the founder of organized Christian religion, and certainly was good in that regard.

crazyheart's picture

crazyheart

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Thank you for all this info.

Thank you for all this info. I appreciate it.

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