Hi kaythecurler

     It is easy to wear a T-shirt with I'm a Christian --It is much harder to live the life God wants for us . It is the responsibility of each individual to work on their Faith walk . Living the life of a sinner which we all are is a little easier as we live according to the standards set by society . We live by and through our 5 senses here on this planet , When someone punches us we fight back that's normal . When our feelings get hurt we get angry or annoyed  When we accept Jesus into our lives as the scripture says in John 3 v 3 there is a change that takes place  in the way a person feels and sees things  . The person no longer feels good about hitting . punching , hurting etc   It then becomes a personal choice to either follow God's Book The Bible and strengthen our faith by changing the way we think . This takes much work on our part and most humans don't have the stamina to maintain the course as the worlds way is easier so many Christians call themselves that probably because they are Born Again but have not developed the change of thinking that is needed to better themselves.

 So the point of Christianity is to become more Christ like in our thinking and actions. But if we don't read God's word The Bible and study it we can't live it.

“And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.” (Romans 12:2)  

 Blessings        

This goes to Hitchen's "Name me a moral statement or action made by a bleiever, that could not have been made by a non-believer" and its followup, "Name me an evil or wicked statement or action made by a believer because of their faith."

The first question has had very few even attempted answers.  The second question requires less than a moment to generate multiple answers.

jon71 and unsafe, what part of forgiveness is uniquely Christian?  You can find forgiveness as a theme in Buddhism, Islam, Hinduism and Judaism, not to mention reciprocal altruism, where those who have done wrong express remorse and are forgiven by others.

Besides, as kaythecurler's son has noted, Christians are not better people than anyone else, whether they have been "born" once, twice, or more times.

Having read sections of the bible about the thoughts and actions of God, that seems like setting the bar a little low.

The answer to the first question is obvious and easy - there are none. Non-believers can be just as moral as believers. Christian faith is not about morality, although that's a common misconception.

The second question you have answered already. Those who claim Christ can act in very evil ways.

Neither you nor Hitchens mention the third question: "name me an evil or wicked statement or action made by a non-believer because of their non-belief." There would be multiple answers for that question as well. Just as Christians need to get over their idea that they are superior because of their faith, so do non-believers need to get over their idea that they are superior because of their nonfaith.

kaythecurler, the answer "forgiveness" is, I think a bit too simplistic, although I don't disagree. I would answer "assurance." If one is troubled by something they've said, done, etc., in the past, one can can find great assurance in the belief that God forgives us. If one is troubled by the prospect of death, one can find great assurance in the belief that God defeats death. If one accepts incarnation, one can find great assurance in believing that God the God who created cares enough for creation to enter creation. My decision to embrace Christian faith after rejecting it for many of the same reasons your son and others on this Board have rejected it was as a result of grasping the third, which required philosophical (as opposed to scientific) reflection on my part about the nature and origins of the universe and my place in it. If one doesn't feel the need for assurance of some type (or if one has no curiosity about origins) then Christianity will be largely meaningless to them.

We do have to get away from this idea that being a Christian makes one a "better" person.Christians have the same weaknesses, temptations, failings, sins, etc. as others. Thus, the expectation that the church would be a model of virtue is ridiculous. The church is a community of people who have approached God through Christ, in the belief that God accepts us as we are. What we do with that faith - whether we let it change us or not - is a personal choice.

Amen!

While our theologies differ significantly, my friend, I can wholeheartedly agree with this statement.

David

How does a lack of faith in a god or holy text inform us to do bad things?  In the case of belief, there is ample justification for violence in the Bible, the Qu'ran, and the Torah.  Where is the equivalent book that informs non-believers to do violent things?

Again, you mistake non-belief in a god or gods for political ideologies.  Political ideologies that consider (or considered) religion to be an enemy of the state for security reasons - not because there was no reason to believe.  These are not the same things.

The point is, there is nothing good about belief that requires belief.  If the question is, "What is the point of Christianity?"  Then the answer is not going to be easy, if there is a satisfactory answer at all.  We certainly haven't found it yet in this thread.

I heard a quote once - although this was in the context of being a wrestling fan, lol, I think it fits for Christianity or any faith also - 'For those who understand, no explanation is necessary; for those who don't, no explanation will do'. And I don't mean that condescendingly - just in response to 'what is the point of Christianity?', I don't think any answer would satisfy your son at this time - nor should it. It would be facile, because there is no one-size-fits-all answer. The point of Christianity to ME is to help me better relate to God and vice versa, to be aware of the greatest example of divinity inside of us that God has provided, to be a moral, emotional and spiritual touchpoint as I go about my otherwise-all-too-busy life. Obviously, it doesn't serve that purpose for others. For some it's hedging their bets - I learned this is how to get into heaven, so I will call myself a Christian.

So in that sense I can't offer you and your son answers to your specific question - but I can offer answers to a greater one. Please do not let one Christian acting in poor faith taint how you might see others. No one should find it acceptable to tar all Muslims with the brush of terrorism - likewise, no one should tar all Christians because some are dishonest or untrue. There are many Christians who do not live up to that label - the Bible is full of them. That is why I judge people - all people - on their actions, and not what they say of themselves.

Mendalla

 Neo, I would have agreed if you had said that the Spirit of God is greater than any man-made religion.

You are most welcome. It's an important enough statement that I wanted to quote it correctly.

Mendalla

The claim that the Spirit of God is greater than man-made religions is a given. My claim that the Spirit of Man is greater than the man-made religions stems from the fact that the religions have strayed away from their original purpose. In many cases, and especially with the western Christian religions, the simple and original beauty of the religion have been lost in a fog of theology and dogma.

This is where the spirit of men and woman everywhere will eventually cut through the doctrine to find the real truth. If the man-made religions refused to move forward with the people then these religions will most assuredly pass away into history. This is how it's always been.

Religion must keep in step with the people and evolve, like everything else. Otherwise the people will walk away and find the truth by other means. It's in this light that I made this claim. The spirit of the people is stronger than any church, religion, dogma or doctrine. Our church leaders in the west should know this. Churches are here to serve the people and present the truth in the most honest and sincere manner possible.

People will find the truth if they have the will.

Going to church doesn't make you a Christian, anymore than standing in a garage makes you a car.

"Nuff said!!!

We'll I'm glad to hear that you would argue that it's the Spirit of God acting within us. I thought you were going to say that the church itself was infallible because it's been inspirited by God or something like that.

Anyways, we're actually talking about the same thing here Reverend Steven. Except that I'm acknowledging the concept of the Spirit of God within each of us when I make reference to the Spirit of Man. They are One and the same, or least they have the potential to be One and the same if we were more God conscious and self-aware of the God within.

I don't believe in a God transcendent all by itself, a God standing and ruling from afar, outside of Creation. Only when the concept of a God transcendent is combined with the concept of  God immanent do we truly experience creation. The Kingdom of God is within us. We the people have the power to become One with God. This is our free will. It is our gift from God, our sacrifice, our service, our love.

I thought curling was for people who had outgrown those shuffleboard things that every Legion has (or did. Do they still have them? I haven't been in a Legion in almost thirty years).

The drink sounds about right though. Scotch of course, to celebrate the church's Presbyterian component.

Well in addition to what you're already doing, which is great, I would add CHRIST's forgiveness of us, specifically dying on the cross to forgive all our sins. The removal of sin is something bigger than anything people can do on their own.

Asking many atheists to give up their delusion of superiority is like asking a four year old to give up his favorite toy. There is a lot of whining, crying and tantrums that go along with it.

I used the term "many atheists" because there are other atheists that are content to just let people live their lives how ever they wish, without mocking or ridiculing those people OR their beliefs. And, unlike chansen, I choose not to paint an entire group of people with the same brush because of a few who give the group a bad name.

The argument that Christians somehow become some sort of super human is utter bullshit. It's an agument that is like a clanging gong from believers and non-believers alike. It is also an argument that can be refuted without much effort at all because it cannot be proven that all believers think this way. It is a weak argument and only somebody with a frightfully weak mind would use it as an argument or give and thought at all to it.

If many Christians and many atheists would take care and actually READ a Bible, they would see, and more importantly understand that we all miss the mark.

There is none who understands;
      There is none who seeks after God.
        They have all turned aside;
      They have together become unprofitable;
      There is none who does good, no, not one.     

   Their throat is an open tomb;
       With their tongues they have practiced deceit; 
      The poison of asps is under their lips”;

Romans 3:11-13

for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God

Romans 3:23

(emphasis mine)

There is no qualifier in those verses that would exclude certain groups. Nobody is more moral or less moral than the next person.

Ignorance and arrogance from believers and non-believers alike is both destructive and dangerous.
      

This is a repost from another thread, but I think it is relevant.

The Christian Faith isn't about self. It's about 2 things. Does anyone remember the Great Commandment?

'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.^{[a] 30}Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.'^{[b] 31}The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'^[c]There is no commandment greater than these."

So the whole "I feel I’m on a spiritual journey, and I feel this and that and this isn't right, and the rhetoric about trusting in human reason" is essentially the definition of Sin. That is, believing that we are capable of saving our self, and finding our own “path”. I know I'm going to be attacked for using Christian concepts like faith and Sin, but egocentric self centered and so called progressive theologies denigrate into nothing. That is the opposite of Christian faith.  

That is not to say that non-Christians cannot be 'good' people, because that isn't what I'm saying at all. Christianity is about faith; it's about the stupidity of the Cross. 

1 Corinthians 3:18-23 - Let no one be under any illusion over this. If any man among you thinks himself one of the world's clever ones, let him discard his cleverness that he may learn to be truly wise. For this world's cleverness is stupidity to God.

 As Kierkegaard would argue, it's about taking a leap of faith into the absurd. The act of faith is an act in which the individual places his absolute trust upon something, even though that something cannot possibly be. To conceive of God, especially a Trinitarian God, who literally died for us, does not make any rational sense. I’m sure most people can agree on this. This is precisely why people often succumb to demoting Jesus to the status of Madman or merely prophet. Similarly, a gracious loving God who freely saves the believer is a concept that is almost too good to be true. But that is what God wants from us, belief – end of story. It is only through the absurdity of the cross that we can actually live out the great commandment. To praise and love God in every moment of ones life, even when one is confronted with the worst kind of unfortunate circumstances while keeping a real ethic of reciprocity is only possible when we give it all to God.

 Of course, if one can actually take this leap of faith, we must be cautioned against ‘cheap grace’ – which unfortunately is rife in the mainline churches. As Bonheoffer writes in The Cost of Decipleship: “Cheap grace is the grace we bestow on ourselves. Cheap grace is the preaching of forgiveness without requiring repentance, baptism without church discipline, Communion without confession.... Cheap grace is grace without discipleship, grace without the cross, grace without Jesus Christ, living and incarnate.” But that is another topic altogether. Sure, atheists may be actively engaged in this work (ei: helping fellow man)  - and God bless them, but if there is no faith, then it is for personal gratification and therefore not concurrent with the commandments given to us by Jesus.

Now, I realize many people unfortunately do not accept the biblical cannon in any kind of authoritative way. In a secular, non-partisan way I respect that,  but as a believing Christian I cannot. Why call yourself Christians? (Even when the United Church heritage and official statements of belief are Christian whether or not the UCC at large is actually promoting Christianity, it is unmistakably Christian - or one would think). Be honest with yourself and others and stop benefiting from the fruits of Christianity. If one looks at this issue again from non-Christian, secular, possibly New Age, and/or Psychological perspective, faith is the single greatest faculty in the human mind. It allows people to achieve things that are thought to be impossible or implausible. It is only through faith that the movers and shakers of the world managed to achieve anything, precisely because they believed it was possible. But in the New Testament, God is boldly making the claim that faith is not a mere faculty of the human mind; it is a miraculous mechanism for salvation and a ticket to live out the ethic of reciprocity. Now, if one doesn’t believe that God’s promises are possible, why would you associated with other “deluded” people who believe that God is not a liar, or for that matter He exists in the first place. And for that matter, how can one ‘faithfully’ (or for a lack of a better word, honestly) minister to a so-called Christian congregation as a lay or ordained minister if he or she does not believe in the substance of the faith.

This reminds of an even more grievous heresy especially prevalent in the Anglican Church of Canada and the Episcopal Church in the USA related to the Eucharist.  How can an atheist priest with good conscience administer communion when they don’t believe in the mysteries associated with the Eucharist? But again, I digress, similarly because the United Church really doesn’t have a definitive position concerning communion. And that is ok, since it not essential.

 It looks to me like a so called "Atheist Christian/Minister/pastor/parishioner etc." loves the benefit of a Christian Congregation (ei: fellowship, sense of belonging, a pay cheque [in the case of employed clergy] listening to feel good sermons and feeling better about oneself by participating in social ministry) but these same individuals deny the raison d'être of the Christian community in the first place. I understand many people here and in the United Church in general have strayed far from any semblance of Christianity, but whether or not you believe in the works and promises of Jesus Christ, the main theme of the New Testament is faith. So even if you are Marcus Borg types and do not accept anything written in the Bible, you cannot deny the concept of faith (even if it is the absurd, stupidity of the cross kind of faith) that which is completely central to the most direct testament/record/document related to Jesus Christ, who is either God incarnate, a prophet or a Madman.   Similarly, Jesus (what ever you believe Him to be) is the beacon, inspiration and reason we call ourselves Christian.  So what is the point of being a Christian, aligning with an empty shell of a Trinitarian "Faith", if one prides him or herself in questioning the nature of God, the truthfulness of Jesus' promises, or let alone his divinity.  

Once again, no one can be made to believe; I don't think I'm better than anybody; however it just saddens me when one says they are Christian, while they are humoring egocentric humanism over core essentials of the Christian faith. (And this isn't my opinion; the great commandment comes from Jesus' mouth - according to the New Testament). If you deny the validity of the New Testament, again why listen to Gospel readings on Sunday morning if they are useless (or just feel good moral sayings)? Be honest with yourself. The great commandment is so clear that one needs to love GOD with all their heart. How can you love God if you question, deny or reformulate his existence into something more palatable for your ego? I'm not going to go into specific Christology or doxologies because this is not the place for that, nor do I claim to know the first thing about the intricate and incomprehensible glory of God’s nature. Essentially they are irrelevant in the big picture. The truth is we MUST believe like little children. In Romans 3, Paul says, ¹¹there is no one who understands,". so to delude oneself into thinking that you can figure out, formulate and reformulate their understanding, based on what their reason can comprehend, is complete heresy.

I am also not judging you, as I said, you are all probably wonderful people, and only God knows a persons heart.

Just some food for thought, and I pray that the material and administrative body of United Church of Canada, a member of the one holy catholic church, will again align with faith rather than reason and accommodate the (as Luther would say) invisible church which is the mechanism that faith and love for Christ and others is administered.

The above mentioned criticism of atheists and progressive theologians is one of the many reasons why mainline churches are shriveling up, and dying in our midst. It’s actually very sad.

God Bless

Its by the luck of the draw that I am Christian. I started out Christian because my parents were but my parents COULD have been any other religion under the sun. I have remained Christian.

I agree with Olivet_Sarah in that there is no single point to being Christian.  For me, it is choosing a relationship with Jesus on my journey towards being the best person I can be, and letting the Spirit guide me on that journey to the extent that I can reliquish control of my life. It is choosing to be part of the wider Christian community for company on that journey, along with correction and encouragement.  At this point in my life, it also includes trying to help congregations welcome other sojourners of every kind on their journerys.

Kaythecurler, I hope your son is able to discern for himself what his answer is to his question, even if it means, for now, not seeing any point in being Christian.

jon71 

WOW! Great Posting you explained it very well.

Blessings

Just to build on this, I think that, when we're young, we construct our worldview from our most immediate influences. If it works for us - gives us a reasonably workable approach to life - we're likely to stick with it.

When we see problems in the world - big or small - we naturally apply the solution to the problem that's worked for us, and can make the mistake of thinking that it sohuld work for everyone else as well.

Some people can get pretty adamant about that.

Its not so much  "when all you have is a hammer, every problem is a nail" as it is

"I'm  a carpenter and every house should be built out of wood!"

I think, though, kay, to address your bottom-line question, is there is no satisfactory answer. This neighbour of yours/your sons claims Christianity, but does not live a Christ-like life. Just as there are Muslims who do not live according to the peaceful tenets of Islam. To suggest, however, that this is representative of the religion as a whole, and to dismiss my Christianity and that of anyone else who strives to live according to its precepts (falling howsoever short, as we all do), is a bit like throwing out the baby with the bath water. This was not a failing of Christianity, so much as a failing of the individual - something which might have occurred whether he was Buddhist, Hindu, Jewish, Atheist, Muslim, Agnostic, UU, what have you. Claiming Christianity does not necessarily mean you 'get it' (to some, diamonds might just be pretty, shiny rocks); but not 'getting it' doesn't mean there isn't something to get.