rishi's picture

rishi

image

Seeing Christ in Others

p { margin-bottom: 0.08in; }

I have always been attracted to the phrase/practice "seeing Christ in others," as being somehow key to Christian life.  What it actually means, though, has always eluded me. It's practical meaning often seems to get reduced to a superficial "be nice to everyone."

 

This Christmas I was inundated by e-mail meditations, quoted from sources like Jean Vanier, Henri Nouwen, and others. And while none of these meditations were directly related to this theme of "seeing Christ in others," they all seemed to imply it. Another thing that happened this Christmas was that I was surrounded by the very ugly dynamics of addiction in several people whom I was not able to help. This left me feeling very frustrated, angry, and powerless. Strangely enough, the combination of these various e-meditations that I had been reading, together with these feelings of frustration, anger, and powerlessness, coalesced into a realization that what I was experiencing was a good of example of NOT seeing Christ in others. And somehow this realizing that I knew very well how to NOT see Christ in others helped me to understand in a new way what it means to see Christ in others. At this point I wrote the following to try to capture what was different.   

 

Seeing Christ in others does not require that they radiate all the goodness of God in human form. Seeing Christ in others simply means that Christ is indeed there to be found within them, as that One Living Image of God in which and through whom they were created. In the midst of all of their vulnerabilities, victimizations, temptations, sins, diseases, addictions, pains, frustrations, soiled diapers, upsets and any other miseries that can exist in this world, Christ is there. Christ is there implanted as an imperishable seed. Christ is there, hunkered down, not leaving, ready for whatever may come, always seeking to be incarnated in their own flesh and circumstances. Christ is ready even now to be the light in their darkness. On that we can depend. But someone, at least one flesh-and-blood human being has to see Christ in them for this amazing process of incarnation to be initiated. Someone, anyone, has to continue seeing Christ in them, again and again, for this holy incarnation to continue expanding. But who among us can actually see this Christ in all others and even in ourselves? Perhaps no one but Christ within us.  

 

In some ways, it is now more clear to me what it means to see Christ in others. But in other ways the process is even more mysterious now than it was before. I now have a sense of it as being a process which is not so much a technique or practice that I engage in so much as it is a process of not enganging in any practice but simply allowing the one who sees more clearly than I do to see through my eyes. So it is a kind of consenting to an inner co-operation, in which my basic role is to not get in the way.  It is very hard to describe, and probably intolerably 'mystical' for many people to consider. But I am finding it to be a source of unusual peacefulness and clarity in the midst of some very messy situations like I described above.  I also have a sense that it will lead to fruitful responses to those messy situations. But who knows...? 

 

What does seeing Christ in others mean to you?

 

Share this

Comments

Arminius's picture

Arminius

image

To me, seeing Christ in others means realizing that they consist of the same godly substance as I and have the same creative and godly potential as I. It means that I regard God as the self-creative totality of being, and everyone and everything as a unique manifestation the totality. It means that being at one with God is my higher self, and that everyone and everything is united with me within this higher self. I wish and pray fervently, "if only they knew!", and I do my best toward this end.

Neo's picture

Neo

image

rishi wrote:
Seeing Christ in others does not require that they radiate all the goodness of God in human form. Seeing Christ in others simply means that Christ is indeed there to be found within them, as that One Living Image of God in which and through whom they were created. In the midst of all of their vulnerabilities, victimizations, temptations, sins, diseases, addictions, pains, frustrations, soiled diapers, upsets and any other miseries that can exist in this world, Christ is there. Christ is there implanted as an imperishable seed. Christ is there, hunkered down, not leaving, ready for whatever may come, always seeking to be incarnated in their own flesh and circumstances. Christ is ready even now to be the light in their darkness. On that we can depend. But someone, at least one flesh-and-blood human being has to see Christ in them for this amazing process of incarnation to be initiated. Someone, anyone, has to continue seeing Christ in them, again and again, for this holy incarnation to continue expanding. But who among us can actually see this Christ in all others and even in ourselves? Perhaps no one but Christ within us. 


What does seeing Christ in others mean to you?


Well said Rishi.

 

Seeing Christ in others is the recognition of the Soul of Humanity in others.

Paul, in his first epistle to the Corinthians, wrote "Don’t you know that you yourselves are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in your midst?" To me, this says it all. The Christ within all of us is the same Spirit of God within others. They are one and the same.


Seeing Christ in others, therefore, does require one to be Christian, for Christ is a World Teacher and not strictly a Christian teacher. He told us Himself that he had other folds to which He meant just as much as He does to the orthodox Christian. These other folds may not call Him Christ, but they do recognize and follow His teachings.


Seeing Christ in others therefore is seeing the Wonderful Counselor in all of us, for Christ is the World Teacher, the Master of the Masters, and the Instructor of the Men and Angels alike.


Seeing Christ in others teaches us, above all, right human relations: "For I was an hungered, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in; naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, and fed thee? or athirst, and gave thee drink? And when saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? And when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it unto one of these my brethren, even these least, ye did it unto me."

 

Neo's picture

Neo

image

"No man has ever been saved by theology, but only by the living Christ, and through the awakened consciousness of the Christ within each human heart"

- The Tibetan

LBmuskoka's picture

LBmuskoka

image

In one of those weird life moments, I read your post while

"If God was one of us" was playing on the radio.  The combination inspired me to create the following video response to your query What does seeing Christ in others mean to you?

 

Neo's picture

Neo

image

Wow. LBMuskoka. That was very, very good. And one I'll be sharing on my Facebook page for New Years Eve. Me thinks you have nailed the answer to Rishi's question perfectly.

 

What kind of society let's their family starve on the street?

 

The Lord Maitreya says:

 

"Without sharing there can be no justice;

without justice there can be no peace;

without peace, there can be no future"
 

 

We have no other choice than to feed the people. It's one of the top three priorities we need to implement as a global society immediately:
 

1. Stop all war

2. Feed all the hungry

3. Clean up our planet

 

The alternative to any of these is unthinkable.

Arminius's picture

Arminius

image

Neo wrote:

Wow. LBMuskoka. That was very, very good. And one I'll be sharing on my Facebook page for New Years Eve. Me thinks you have nailed the answer to Rishi's question perfectly.

 

What kind of society let's their family starve on the street?

 

The Lord Maitreya says:

 

"Without sharing there can be no justice;

without justice there can be no peace;

without peace, there can be no future"
 

 

We have no other choice than to feed the people. It's one of the top three priorities we need to implement as a global society immediately:
 

1. Stop all war

2. Feed all the hungry

3. Clean up our planet

 

The alternative to any of these is unthinkable.

 

Yes, absolutely!

 

(There you go, I'm an absolutist after all :-)

 

(The right kind of absolutist, I hope :-)

stardust's picture

stardust

image

LB

Wonderful video yes

 

Arminius and Neo:  Agreed.....great writing !

 

Edit: Rishi too.....!!!

LBmuskoka's picture

LBmuskoka

image

Here is another way to see the Christ in others....

 

Women see the other side
 

“This course has been a journey rich in laughter and tears, heart-stopping leaps of faith,” she said. “In a short period of time we got over assumptions we had about one another and we got on to learning.”

seeler's picture

seeler

image

Beautiful!    One of my favourite songs.  I consider it a hymn.  I would love to see it in our hymnbooks - or hear it sung as an anthem in our churches.   What if God were one of us?   But God is one of us - that is the whole message of Christmas - God incarnate - God in the flesh - God, fully human in a baby in a manger.  

 

Each and ever person is created in the image of God.  And God dwells in each one of us. 

 

Funny how when we hear this we think of the down-and-out - the homeless - the hungry - the disenfranchised.  We think of the 'In-as-much" passage in the Bible.  We try to see Christ in the faces of those we help.

 

What about God in ourselves?   What about God in those who help us?   In the past two years I've seen God's angels bringing food, comfort, friendship, healing,  financial help, transportation, good wishes, and concern to my family.   I've learned that it is not only blessed to give to others, but I've also been blessed by those who have given so much to me and my family.   Christ reaches out to me with others' hands, and touches me through the love and friendship of others - friends and strangers.   Yes, I see the Spirit of God dwelling in the people in Muskota's video, the people I see on the news, the people I read about in the paper - but I also see the Spirit of God at work in my family, community, congregation.  

 

And I hope that at times I bring the face of Christ to others.

 

waterfall's picture

waterfall

image

"What does seeing Christ in others mean to you?"

 

It means that I have been paying attention to God's words and that my eyes have been opened.

waterfall's picture

waterfall

image

LB, your illustrations are perfect for an amazing song. May I dare to make a suggestion for one missing frame? It would be us, the poor in spirit.

Kimmio's picture

Kimmio

image

I met someone on the bus yesterday. He was so patient, kind, helpful, and seemed genuinely interested in others--acted towards me like he had known me his whole life-- and I had only just met him...he radiated a peaceful calm. I was ruffled from minor annoyances of travelling--he offered me assistance with my bag-- and being in his presence made me feel calm...like he could tell what I needed at that moment, and so, offered it. He was a young man, probably early thirties. We talked a little bit and he is truly following path in his life to help others...that's not what he said about himself, but what he is doing speaks for itself...he has masters credientials in environmental sustainability and is also studying holistic healing (was reading a text book on the lymphatic system and massage). We didn't get into a discussion about religion. Meeting him though, I thought to myself, "this person is very Christ-like." I could just tell without even knowing his religious beliefs. I know it sounds strange because I don't know much about him, but he came across to me as someone who has the temperment that I always believed Jesus to have. Also, from what I know about him in that brief encounter, I also thought to myself, "I want to be more like this person, in temperment and in deed." We said goodbye and all the best, he patted me on the shoulder as I exited the bus. We never exchanged names. It didn't feel like we had to. It was just one of those moments in time that I am not likely to forget.

Neo's picture

Neo

image

Wow, that's cool when things like that happen Kimmio. Your's in not the only story about a Jesus or Christ like figure showing up in our every day lives. It's a story that's being repeated over and over again these days. We are truly beginning to see Christ in others.

Kimmio's picture

Kimmio

image

Yeah. It's true. The more I see Christ in others, I also realize I have work to do on my own behaviour, my own self-control...and that's a good thing, I need that sometimes, and I am grateful that people have shown up in my life to show me that, without being judgemental. I see Christ in others when I meet people who radiate goodness but not in a pretentious sort of way, it's just a way of life for them and they don't do it with expectations, and they don't seem to have fear or stress issues--even when things get hectic, they stay balanced--and I want to be more like them...they give me a tangiable standard to live up to...one which I imagine Jesus to have been like...and my hope is that I can "pay it forward" so to speak, and have that effect on others also. That's what seeing Christ in others means to me. Sometimes it's constant...in someone you know and trust who is a rock in your life...sometimes it is someone who is just passing through and shows you brief moments of grace amidst a chaotic world.

InannaWhimsey's picture

InannaWhimsey

image

Our Glorious Empire, long may it Exist, has been exploring the Vast Greatness for long enough now that we know our universe is riddled with baby universes, little bits of spacetime pinched off from ours.

And now, for the first time, we got a look inside one near Wolf 359, seeing something quite enjoying itself creating itself and being created by its creation.  Unfortunately, an ancient 21st century camera was available, so only forward causation & 2 dimensions were available for recording.
 

jlin's picture

jlin

image

I don't see a lot of Christ.  What I get to see a lot of is bullying, egoism, fear, envy, jealousy, hate, accusation, denial. 

At this point in my awareness of what is going on, the only place that Christ exists is in some esoteric retreat.  Christ is dead.  Long live racism.

LBmuskoka's picture

LBmuskoka

image

waterfall wrote:

LB, your illustrations are perfect for an amazing song. May I dare to make a suggestion for one missing frame? It would be us, the poor in spirit.

 

As Ansel Adams once said "There are always two people in every picture:  the photographer and the viewer."

 

I thought I had captured the lack of spirit in pointing out that in the 22 years since making an unanimous declaration to reduce child poverty, neither party of government nor the Canadian people, have made any progress.  I had hoped that by including the frame of the  2011 survey  declaring that many Canadians polled blamed the poor for their plight that those poor in spirit would recognize themselves.  Perhaps I am too subtle.

 

Reducing child poverty reduces future poverty.  It is that simple.  Children given the advantage of living and learning in clean safe buildings not only survive but thrive.

 

It is the inability of the viewer to see Christ/God/Humanity in our children that prevents them seeing it others and even themselves....

 

 

35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

   37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

   40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

     Mathew 25, NIV

seeler's picture

seeler

image

What a shame!

 

jlin wrote:

I don't see a lot of Christ.  What I get to see a lot of is bullying, egoism, fear, envy, jealousy, hate, accusation, denial. 

At this point in my awareness of what is going on, the only place that Christ exists is in some esoteric retreat.  Christ is dead.  Long live racism.

John Wilson's picture

John Wilson

image

Arminius wrote:

 I regard God as the self-creative

 

 

self creative

 

Why not one step of an infinite ladder?

Did you miss the Voice saying "Ok., Arm, this is a far as you get to go with that human brain and miniscule life span of yours. Now be good, enjoy life and be happy in the knowledge that you have reached level two."

Hey, I understand there's only 87 levels to go, at which time conscious thought becomes....something else.

 

Oh,oh, O gotta go, The men in the white suits at  the front door...

 

 

Arminius's picture

Arminius

image

Well, HG, my concepts are speculations, not knowledge, and my speculations are constantly changing. That way, the men in the white suits will never get me. (Unless, of course, uncertainty becomes a certifiable mental illness.)

 

(I am, of course, not just uncertain and wrong but also absolutely certain and absolutely right. But, please, don't tell this to the men in the white suits, or they will surely haul me away.)

Neo's picture

Neo

image

If we don't keep changing our concepts then we'll stagnate into one point of view that'll imprison us until we are forced into breaking free.


The only thing I can be absolulety sure of is the fact that I can't be absolutely sure of anything. Truth is ever changing because we are ever changing.

WaterBuoy's picture

WaterBuoy

image

 We develop consciousness from desire to do so, then self-consciousness ... then what?

 

Super Ego, a self-consciousness beyond the mortal imagination ... and desire is all blown to eL! Imagine the consequences of Matthew 5:22 ... calling a man a fool in love! Does this powerful statge pass ... become something else? Some say you can't see IT until your Goan ... that's spiritual in an old indu composition ...

WaterBuoy's picture

WaterBuoy

image

Some people get fixated like stuck in the self-love stage ...

 

Like Buddha in that pit where the buddy tree was planted ...

 

And God told Mos's this was a hole place ... thus IT took root and grew ... some don't like the strangler Fig ... just can't get over sucking the like out of others ... bit of spaience from the other side?

 

Is it a Joie to learn something you never learned before? Toss something like this at an authority and check the reaction; comparing an authority to a real scholar ... the perfection of Rabi ... always out there ... observing in the dark ... occult-like?

 

Makes the Shadow-Ais ones chimer with giggles ...

 

Is this too complex .. pluralistic for the one-trackers ... mono-theists? Self-absorbant theosophy!

rishi's picture

rishi

image

jlin wrote:

I don't see a lot of Christ.  What I get to see a lot of is bullying, egoism, fear, envy, jealousy, hate, accusation, denial. 

At this point in my awareness of what is going on, the only place that Christ exists is in some esoteric retreat.  Christ is dead.  Long live racism.

 

thanks for this. I think it's good to resist wearing esoteric-colored glasses.  Hard to see God in the midst of so much muck.

An e-meditation just came in today from Jean Vanier on that theme. I suppose his life experiences at L'Arche made it easier for him to see. "My heart is filled with hope because God is Emmanuel, God-with-us, God hidden in the mud and the pain of each day. God answers the cry of our hearts." (Jean Vanier, Our Life Together, p. 416).

I think "Christ is dead" is another kind of colored glasses, though. It misses realities that are actually present but hard to see at this moment.

 

WaterBuoy's picture

WaterBuoy

image

Some think of Christ as IC ... a visible, bare energetic flame.

 

Then there appears to be another that is buried in physical fear of the real world that believe in the power of the 1st kind ... a  second kind that is warm dark and buried in bodean clay ... sort of mediated by experience!

 

But then modern flaming Christians hate mediums ... as if it were law!

jesse's picture

jesse

image

OK you ministers  -  in place of your sermon , play this video without comment. Just stand up , push the play button and sit down and say nothing and watch and listen to the responses at coffee time.   Jesse in Peterborough

seeler's picture

seeler

image

Jesse - which video?

 

Arminius's picture

Arminius

image

I think Jesse refers to the video: "What if God is one of us." 

Beloved's picture

Beloved

image

We will seek God, not in a long ago stable or ancient manger,

But in the people we meet and the depths of our own hearts.”

 

This is an excerpt from one of the prayers we prayed in one of our Advent worship services this year.  It really spoke to me.  We've just come through Christmas - many have looked for Christ in Christmas, and most especially in the Christ child.  That is okay.  To me the part about "in the people we meet" speaks to me about seeing the Christ in others.

 

Of course the first thought that comes to my mind was the scripture verse in Matthew which LB quoted . . . the hungry, the thirsty, the stranger (the homeless), the naked, the sick, those in prison . . . sometimes these are the forgotten faces of Christ.

 

To me, Christ is in all . . . in the holy, good, and kind . . .  and in the darkest soul.

 

rishi's picture

rishi

image

Beloved wrote:

To me, Christ is in all . . . in the holy, good, and kind . . .  and in the darkest soul.

 

This reminded me of a quote that I recently read by the 17th century 'divine', Jeremy Taylor:

 

"The presence of God is understood by us in several manners, and to several purposes. God is present by his essence; which, because it is infinite, cannot be contained within the limits of any place; and, because he is of an essential purity and spiritual nature, he cannot be undervalued by being supposed present in the places of unnatural uncleanness; because as the sun, reflecting upon the mud of strands and shores, is unpolluted in its beams, so is God not dishonoured when we suppose him in every of his creatures, and in every part of every one of them; and is still as unmixed with any unhandsome adherence as is the soul in the bowels of the body."  (from Taylor's book "Holy Living")

 

Berserk's picture

Berserk

image

When I was a boy growing up in Winnipeg, I was always an hour early for church because my father had to practice with the choir, male quartet, etc.  Bernie was a retarded man who had to be at church early for a similar reason.  Out of a mixture of sheer boredom and sympathy for Bernie's loneliness, I engaged him in his limited repertoire of conversation topics (e. g. his experiences selling newspapers in the street).  I gradually got better at drawing him out, but conversation was always a bit labored.  This went on for a few years.  Then one Sunday, when I was 18, Bernie created one of the most sacred moments of my life. 

 

When I approached him for our usual small talk, he took charge and electrified me by saying with tears of his eyes: "Don, I've been praying for you, and God has shown me that you will one day be used by God to be a theologian.  Claim this calling and God will bless your pursuit of this vocation."  I was blown away by his sudden unprecedented eloquence and vocabulary, which had never been even remotely evident.  I was blown away by his tears because, over the years, I had just been passing the time, and it never occurred to me that I was somewhat easing Bernie's problem of loneliness.  But most of all, I was blown away by the obvious sense of God's presence in Bernie's speech and the feeling that God Himself was calling me into Christian  ministry through Bernie. 

 

At the time, I was obsessed with girls and the imagined status of prestigious secular occupations (e. g. lawyers).  None of my pastors or youth ministers had ever suggested that I might be destined for the ministry.  Bernie's gift reminds me of a neglected aspect of Paul's teaching about the Body of Christ: "Some of the [body] parts that seem least important are really the most necessary...God has put the Body together in such a way that extra honor and care are given to those parts that have less dignity (1 Corinthians 12:22, 24)."  Unless we can see Christ even in retarded people, we might be deprived of an important message God has for us.  My journey of many years of college, seminary, and doctoral work in Biblical Studies are largely influenced by Bernie's prophetic message. 

jlin's picture

jlin

image

Rishi,

 

I agree that "Christ is dead" is a frustrated and easy comment.  But, all glasses are tinted and one makes a statement of time.

 

It is acceptable to time travel.  We all do it every day all of the time, of course.  We can time travel to a point where Christ is not dead, but Christ being dead is just as accurate a perception.

 

The point at which Christ is dead is in a factual state of economic debt wherein all governments fail to express the will of the people to depopulate, educate and live if not in complete harmony, then at least in continual attempts to dialogue with the world.

 

Being a woman used to get me the epithet, "easier for you "  when it came to fostering detatchment from the sociological patriarchal purpose, in that not being male, it was easy for me to see the poetic whole for what it seemed and what it actualized.  I never had to detatch from my best friend, my penis . . . and all the pretend of entitlement.

 

Men are entitled to Christ.  Women find Christ a necessity . . . especially in the face of all fundamentalism.  When Christ is dead, the time is so buggered that no feel for the safety of women can be actualized.

Neo's picture

Neo

image

Christ can never be dead , only our perception of Him can be lost.

 

The Christ Consciousness is the Universal Consciousness of Humanity, that great Angel that "fell into generation" so long ago, the Adam Kadmon, the Archetypal Man.

 

WaterBuoy's picture

WaterBuoy

image

So could we say that Christ is a figment of the tree we call mind, or logic that is opposed to simple emotions without due considerations?

 

Does the imagination always reside with us ... only some are so fogged by emotions they can't see it? This would fall into the discussion of John Spong in his latest release in the section where he discusses prophets ... people who can see small delights, or sparks of intellect whereas the monotheistically emotional ... cannot see anything. That's the blind man living on the mountain!

 

Now in a militant religion like Romanism (where it was legal to go into anybodies' private properties) and destroy them, free thought is contained according to the ancient church father: "common people (pagans) were not to know anything, nor should they care about such things". Some bust out is inevitable as the confined mental process brews. Could such a bang or Eko from the past (Ego) cause the fall of the Roman empiric ... a faulty paradigm, that is basically unbalanced as socialism in a republic of that type?

 

Such consideration leads to a visionthat within the Ire'd crow'd (madden?) there may be gemstones for the republican space is not any purer than the free-thinkers ... sinful to the Pope as scientic thoughts are buried in the basement of the vatican--- Dan Brown. Of course this is parsed so the message can get by difficult spots of Oz ... gravid territory just flowing along as words in space ... penne traits the invisible!

 

But do we believe in an internalized medium? If we don't, will ID not be recognizant of the off-spring ... and Mos's fluid will disappear in the wilderness as plainly ArID ... the un-wheted sole integral ... Big-foot? Perhaps this is not all imaginary ... but only seen by powerful matt-REX's ... Elite-ism as it breaks out best! A bit crazy in the best of peoples, plainly sadistic in the emotions. Proof? Just look at the intellectual rejects that surround emotional peaks ... quantum quarks! The commoner just doesn't know the tensors of such forces ... can't separate eM from the vectors ... in an unraveled world of the entangeled ... chaotic words inclusive ... that's darkais?

Arminius's picture

Arminius

image

If, as has been pointed out by others, the "Cosmic Christ" is the spirit of cosmic unity and synthesis, and if "spirit" in that sense does not only mean something spectral but also a guiding idea, consciousness, or awareness, then Christ is never dead.

 

And, if women object to the maleness of the Christian God or Jesus the Christ, there are many examples in history of goddesses and female Christs. The Minoan Goddess, who wields a snake as her scepter, is my favourite. And there are Inanna, Astarte, Isis, and others. And the classical Diotima was a female Christ. Alas, Diotima the Christ didn't get anywhere near as much good press as Jesus the Christ.

jlin's picture

jlin

image

Arminius,

 

You miss my point which is pure practicality not one of specualtion.

 

Christ is Zen.  The Zen is feminist action not reverance.   Women can not pretend not to have Christ, but are more than capable of noticing that Christ/Zen is dead.  It is unnecessary to notify the idea as male or female; the knowledge is feminist or not feminist.  All are dead if the economy can not become feminist.

Kimmio's picture

Kimmio

image

I think I get what you're saying jlin. The economy needs to be about nurturing and care for another and the earth,  and sustainability, not about greed competition and war?

 

I think Christ is not dead..maybe he's just not part of our current economy.

jlin's picture

jlin

image

Kimmio

 

Good point, which makes me think that of course, I tend to negate volunteerism (feminist economy) as it is slavery.   However, slavery is part of the economy.  Until recently, however, the impact of slavery in the economy has not been rated with regard to the environment or the economy; whereas new publications out of Harvard have managed to measure both  environmental slavery ( volunteerism) and all actions of environmentalism on the capitalist scale; whereby the act of enslaving the environmental and feminist economy is proven to distructive to the corporate and buisness profit of a company.  It's great stuff

 

Thanks for the reminder . . .

Arminius's picture

Arminius

image

jlin wrote:

Arminius,

 

You miss my point which is pure practicality not one of specualtion.

 

Christ is Zen.  The Zen is feminist action not reverance.   Women can not pretend not to have Christ, but are more than capable of noticing that Christ/Zen is dead.  It is unnecessary to notify the idea as male or female; the knowledge is feminist or not feminist.  All are dead if the economy can not become feminist.

 

Hi jlin:

 

What I said about feminine deities and teachers was not really in answer to your post, which I didn't quite understand. Thank you for your clarification.

 

And yes, all of us will be dead if our economy does not become dynamically active, straight from the heart of intuition. If this is feminist, so be it.

rishi's picture

rishi

image

jlin wrote:

Men are entitled to Christ.  Women find Christ a necessity . . . especially in the face of all fundamentalism.  When Christ is dead, the time is so buggered that no feel for the safety of women can be actualized.

 

Thanks for that elaboration. I'm used to hearing that sentence used in a kind of unreflective knee-jerk way, not as you are using it. I appreciate your perspective. I grew up in an environment where Christ was a white middle class male who never ventured beyond common sense and expected everyone else to be the same. And that was deader than dead for me.

 

I would challenge your view that all glasses are tinted, though. That is the received wisdom of modern/post-modern thought, but it is too absolute for me to receive uncritically. It doesn't follow for me that because our lives are embedded in -- no experiences arise outside of -- a cultural context, there is no possibility of transcendence. I don't think we know ourselves, the world, or God well enough to be certain of that. Or, in the language of faith, Christ's glasses are not tinted.

 

WaterBuoy's picture

WaterBuoy

image

"I would challenge that!" ---Rishi's quote.

 

Straight from I Thessalonians 5:21 ... but many thologians would not go there. Such would require some self anal Isis ... and the pure wouldn't go there to find the errors in gathered pooh ... raw sum of what we know? Does the subliminal soul have a sense of humour? Bloody well believe it ... just look around at what we don't know ... difficult to believe and satyr ithchly ... much is convoluted, inverse to how it appears in irrational complexity ... the desires that pass-ess Ammon in all hies spectre ... array?

 

The rein ('ve man) bowed all outa shape as he caresses his end where he screwed himself out of existence ... the imaginary field continues as mind to give a fresh start ... basic hole in all that was ... fecund fallout from the primal bust (bo Sem)? If you can untangle the understanding of "S" as sin, or shin to stand upon, sigh (psi) that's ole m'n ... dimensional void ... a beauty if you look up Psalm 123:1 good place to lodge a story ... straight out of isolated Revelations universally coded so we couldn't understand what we didn't wish to know ... all that's profound ... subliminal?

 

Don't talk to me of the superficial overheads ... ethereal space? Not much tØom! Isle take the devilish mystery ... keeps one hopping ... attempting to see over the gorse of history .. hedging betes?

Arminius's picture

Arminius

image

Hi Rishi:

 

As you know, in Zen Buddhism, after one has had an experience of enlightenment, or satori, one acts spontaneously, directly from one's spiritual intuition, without intervention by the reasoning mind: immediate dynamic action, directly from the depths of one's intuition. When a Zen novice is tested as to the meaning of their koan, the master judges whether the answer is intuitive or cleverly thought ought. If the answer is intuitive, then it is right, no matter how stupid it sounds.

 

If abiding by intuition is a feminine trait, and abiding by reason a masculine one, then Zen is feminist, as jlin said. And if abiding by the Christ spirit, or Christ Zen, is acting directly from deep intuition, then acting Christ-like would indeed be feminist.

 

Of course, we cannot do without reason, and a balanced approach is called for. But the reasoning mind should, at all times, be in the service of the spiritual/intuitive heart. And, if the spiritual/intuitive heart is regarded as a feminine power, and reason as a masculine one, then the masculine power should be in service of the feminine power. The masculine principle in spirituality should, at all times, be subordinate to, and in service of, the feminine principle.

 

This, I think, was the hidden message of the medieval troubadour movement, covertly assisted by Bernard de Clairvaux, his Cistercian Order, by some of the great Masters of the Benedictine Order, as well as some high initiates among the Knights Templar, and particularly by the Beguine movement.

 

In the yard of one theological college (I forgot which), there is a female figure nailed to a tree, symbolizing the sacrifice of the feminine principle. I agree with jlin than the feminine principle is still sadly lacking, in spirituality as in daily life.

rishi's picture

rishi

image

WaterBuoy wrote:

... we couldn't understand what we didn't wish to know ...

 

That would be a great definition of the Primordial Sin that we're so bent on reenacting. A hard pattern to break out of (Rom 7:24), the desire to not understand.

rishi's picture

rishi

image

Arminius wrote:

Of course, we cannot do without reason, and a balanced approach is called for. But the reasoning mind should, at all times, be in the service of the spiritual/intuitive heart. And, if the spiritual/intuitive heart is regarded as a feminine power, and reason as a masculine one, then the masculine power should be in service of the feminine power. The masculine principle in spirituality should, at all times, be subordinate to, and in service of, the feminine principle.

I'm not a big fan of Jung, who seems to get a lot of the credit these days for this kind of feminine/masculine thinking.  Although her writings aren't as colorful or popular as Jung's (and will probably never be found on the shelves of New Age bookstores) I think Melanie Klein had a much richer understanding of the feminine principle. She spoke of it in terms of what she called the "depressive position,"  in which the psyche develops the capacity for healthy grief as a result of being compassionately "contained" by inner mothering tendencies. The stereotypically male problems of uncontained greed, envy, and rage, she understood as a failure of the psyche to achieve this "depressive position" which allowed it to grieve losses rather than seeking revenge for them.

 

Arminius's picture

Arminius

image

Interesting point, Rishi!

 

Now I am beginning to understand what motheroffive once said to me about compassion, on a different thread.

Kimmio's picture

Kimmio

image

I found this poem, and figured this was a good place to put it:

 

 

"When the song of the angels is stilled,
When the star in the sky is gone,
When the kings and princes are home,
When the shepherds are back with their flock,
The work of Christmas begins:
To find the lost,
To heal the broken,
To feed the hungry,
To release the prisoner,
To rebuild the nations,
To bring peace among people,
To make music in the heart." - Howard Thurman

WaterBuoy's picture

WaterBuoy

image

Rishi,

"The desire not to understand" ... could that lead to fallout and the opening verses of Genesis where creation separated heaven (shamayim) and earth (mayim)? Then if you read on in another script Rueben is detailed as separation, or divorce which is natural in mortals, and unnatural in the immortal (in which ID is all together), integral ... a state towards which the differentiated drift. Then of course many do not believe in the concept of infinite, nor nothing ... isn't that just the pits, or a dimple in space as Einstein described this gravid point where we live? Is there anonymous sense of nailing hybred found here; what is Onyx in one phonetic and O'Nicks as a devil planted in a holiday in space ... blacksmith's expression when there is a serious gap in irony ... enigmaticly of course!

 

Arminious,

Could this define the separation of the feminine and masque-Q-line, which were not meant to be separate in the primal cause (Cos; alternate's ID)? This leads to a gathering of thoughts to the desirous point and thus a generation of chaos in space. It is a mire image of what goes on below in the much smaller test case leading to dimensions of determinations beyond mortal in the extended mind. This of course is unbeliveable to the mortal ... so the whole concept of mind would be separated from the aforesaid as myth. Thus stories are beyond most mortals as they grow into them as gathering of the unusual (aliens)  sort of an expression of Ecclesiastes in time ... ecco last-IC lee ... the secondary power will catch up as latent logic ... in a reasonable world that is beyond this dimension. It is a subtle of subliminal sense that advertisers use to mislead mortals into believing nonsense in needs ... mortals can't differentiate between these values that are valves ... in the veil of the heart land ... a germane thing driving all things round and round? Plasma effect ...

 

In Mark-cyst situation will the heart land rise up towards thoughts ... a mental state ... that would work if some loe veers were collected as wavers in the straight line effect? Causes ripples in the larger poe'L! Outstanding mentality with spirit .. the emotional aspect of Jung m'n ... Freud didn't like Jung's attachment to dreamy psychology ... Freud though it all should be chillingly cool and condensed! Some heat is always appreciated in the Reuben ... melts the chi Zea portions in sects ... mortal authority thought this as evil creation ... a son to cause conflict between mother and father, etc. ... That's biblical is it not? The story goes on ad infinituum ... that endless ... the mother caves and the issue just won't go way ... chi embraces the whole thing the parts don't as a separatory act as in a funnel derived from koan ... or cone of influence in the mortal image ... oielle floats in water doesn't IT ... as mire reflection? Here creation can pick offf the greecy parts of the urn as if they were writ on the superficial part as a thought ... in depth creations!

 

I should get ouda here as some people think this is absolutely mental and of course they don't wish to know. Try it pose a statement to an authority on an anonymous subject! The response will differentiate the powers from the latent scholar ... the follower in the lower tier trying to calculate on what makes God thick ... one must move beneath the clouds ... don't climb the steps to the alter ... mortals will cut you up there as they start with blood in the Ais ...

 

Did you know that "ai" was outlawed around King J'aimes time ... there was a desire for common folk not to know ... a contageous thing amongst hier followers ... the loEire, deeper portions of the soul, question. This must be beat back down ... in a mortal sense into sublime space thus mankind is mortally dumb and heaven is beneath their reality ... proving all is not as it appears ... just image! What creation set out to do in the first space ... form a picture, Jared from the initial intent ... that ID wasn't all that A'B'D ... the Hebrew word for Rueben of separation and why if feels good to gather thoughts ... unless yere totally emotional about separations ... some given take required ... where the Roman Type went wrong inthe black ... they didn't recognize the subliminal light in the word was good for all and illiteracy was worshiped! That's enought to Eris phoqah outa a slumbering state ... unreal metaphor for the hidden de' athe of miçe? I chose to dais laughing ... and the stoics don't like it ... they suspect something a-rye is hidden there!

 

Is nothing pure? Not on this side of the imagination, a complex mental issue ... some call irrational. Everybody should have a bit of both ... just for balast in the hajji ... Odyseus of life? Getting there is not as important as the trip ... over fundamentals ... learning is a Pan' ...

rishi's picture

rishi

image

WaterBuoy wrote:

Rishi,

"The desire not to understand" ... could that lead to fallout and the opening verses of Genesis where creation separated heaven (shamayim) and earth (mayim)? Then if you read on in another script Rueben is detailed as separation, or divorce which is natural in mortals, and unnatural in the immortal (in which ID is all together), integral ... a state towards which the differentiated drift. .... there is a serious gap in irony ..

 

Yes, there is outrageously rich philosophy going on in Genesis, but it's not for the faint of heart. I think it's no less inevitable now than it was in some primordial world like mythic Eden for us to discover (sooner or later) that experiencing our finiteness is frustrating and scary as Hell. But we need that painful taste of the separation between finite and infinite in order to recognize the gap and the need for a sacred bridge. So, primordial sin, "the desire not to understand", is exposed as little more than a flight from awareness of that painful taste. But notice where that leaves us.... dreaming that we are "as gods," yes, but marooned in our finitude because we would rather not taste the salty waters of grief. Tasting grief, however, has always been the price of understanding. Taste and see that the Lord is good!  Therein we discover a veritable bridge between the finite and the infinite.  But this is a gospel that only the marginalized seem to 'get.'  Fortunately, though, sooner or later, we all become the marginalized.

 

This, by the way, relates to my take on the key "problem" with the church. When it is really being church, it is irrelevant to the kind of life most people want (a life predicated on the desire to not understand). So to the extent that it's authentic, it's doomed to become an institution of the marginalized.

 

Arminius's picture

Arminius

image

rishi wrote:

This, by the way, relates to my take on the key "problem" with the church. When it is really being church, it is irrelevant to the kind of life most people want (a life predicated on the desire to not understand). So to the extent that it's authentic, it's doomed to become an institution of the marginalized.

 

So the authentic church is embraced only by the lunatic fringe, and therefore is doomed.

 

And the popular church is not authentic, and therefore is doomed.

 

What a bind!

 

To be or not to be authentic, this is the question.

 

It think it is better to be authentic and hope that all people will become lunatics.

 

 

The lunatic is on the grass

 

-Pink Floyd

WaterBuoy's picture

WaterBuoy

image

That depends on the perspective of marginallized ... fringe people or those below the horizon of frothy reality?

 

My irrational mind drifts towards images of that child's game where they try and pound eyery head down that pops up (Wack a Molai) randomly! A grand symbol of rising awareness (Eris is dissonance in the status quo) and the perspective of the paradigm ... the average pool of humanity. If you catch someone that thinks they are beginning to get a grasp ... knock em down ... we can't deal with a thinker! Now where have we heard of that in history of toasted souls ...?

 

Is it time for a change in mental/emotional vectors, towards ten sors ... O'Din's wrath? Einstein stated something of this sort ... then Einstein was just a secular Jew ... not spiritually so ... Jew being a power if you look at the derivation from Judah in Hebrew tongue (the powerful one) verses the secondary power of literacy ... sort of hits you like epiphany ... light coming on in the dark. You never see it coming ... only going ... that's intellect versus emotional blasts ...

 

Then if you do not believe in the existence of an infinite bottom line ... you couldn't believe in a half-wit'd soul ... could you? The odd side of the creationary code in binary form ... cheeky? Its a back-handed humour as Christ indicated in turning the cheek ...

 

Back to Religion and Faith topics
cafe