MC jae
Serving Communion (Inclusive Version)
Posted on: 02/20/2012 00:30
This stems from a thread made by crazyheart, which stemmed from a comment made by seeler on Gord's thread about Transfiguration.
Who in your church can serve communion.? Only ordained or others?
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GordW
I believe CH was not
Posted on: 02/20/2012 00:55
I believe CH was not referring to serving during the service but doing home communion. Traditionally the cleric or an officially designated Elder would be the only ones to serve the latter (often the clergyperson in conjunction with an elder/congregational representative).
During worship we have volunteers do the serving. This can (and has) included children and youth. However in the UCCan communion and baptism are only to take place if an ordained person or a licensed diaconal minster/designated lay minister/sacraments elder (one of the 3, they are all different roles) is present to preside.
Tabitha
And so Jae/MC who presides
Posted on: 02/20/2012 01:05
And so Jae/MC who presides over communion in your congregatin and also in the FEB?
DKS
GordW wrote: During worship
Posted on: 02/20/2012 09:21
During worship we have volunteers do the serving. This can (and has) included children and youth. However in the UCCan communion and baptism are only to take place if an ordained person or a licensed diaconal minster/designated lay minister/sacraments elder (one of the 3, they are all different roles) is present to preside.
It's a bit more complicated that that, Gord. Anyone with a license to perform the sacraments can preside. That includes ordained ministers (their license is permanent until they go on the DSL(V) and (DSL(D)), diaconal ministers, designated lay ministers, those being admitted from other denominations, student supply ministers, candidate supply ministers, intern supply ministers, diaconal supply ministers and scaramental elders.
Then there is a group of people who are given authority to preside at communion at presbytery meetings; That group includes diaconal ministers and lay persons who are elected as the presiding officer of the presbytery. They can only celebrate communion and not perform baptisms.
Mendalla
I will resist the urge to
Posted on: 02/20/2012 10:28
I will resist the urge to post "We're UU. We don't do communion."
Largely because it's not true. There are UU congregations that do and there are UU Christians who do.
However, given that we aren't specifically Christian and observe many rites, not just Communion, there isn't really a specific set of rules around who can/can't preside at a ritual. It's entirely in the hands of the minister and local worship leaders who can be permitted to lead a ritual in a service. Generally, it means finding someone, ordained or not, who is familiar enough with the ritual in question and its significance to be able to lead it appropriately.
Some rituals we've observed in our fellowship:
- Ingathering water communion. First major service in the fall. Member bring water from or signifying where they've been and pour it into a common bowl. It is then used to water our gardens. Common in UU congregations.
- Flower communion. Members bring in flowers or other decorative vegetation from their gardens. Popular UU spring ritual.
- Thanksgiving bread communion. The closest we've come to actual Communion. Members bring in their own home-bake loaves on Thanksgiving Sunday and the bread is shared.
- Fire Communion. Didn't do it this year, but it's one we've done some years at new years. You use magician's flash paper and write on it things from the past year that you wish to leave behind, then ignite the flash paper.
Our last interim minister (a self-identifying UU Christian) did offer a Christian Communion one Easter Sunday but it was a separate gathering prior to the service.
Mendalla
MC jae
Tabitha wrote: And so
Posted on: 02/20/2012 10:41
And so Jae/MC who presides over communion in your congregatin and also in the FEB?
At my church the Pastor normatively presides. If he is ever away then one of our two Deacons would preside. If both of our Deacons are away, then another man would be appointed to preside by the Pastor. The elements are usually distributed by the Deacons.
As for the FEB, each church is run using a congregational style of government, so it's really up to the congregation to decide. However, I believe that in the majority of cases most churches would follow a similar pattern, Pastor, then Elders, then Deacons.
MC jae
Mendalla wrote:Ingathering
Posted on: 02/20/2012 10:47
I love these Mendalla. I don't know if I personally would use them in a religious context, but what awesome ways to show fellowship and unity.
They remind me somewhat of the sand ceremony that my wife and I had at our wedding. Her Mom brought sand with her from South Korea, my mom brought sand with her from the shores of the Bay Chaleur, and during our ceremony my wife and I mixed the sands together into a beautiful glass bottle to represent our unity.
airclean33
Hi MorningCalm---This may be
Posted on: 02/20/2012 11:11
Hi MorningCalm---This may be a subject I should not say much. But the Spirit will not let me. I do respect those who are in the office of ministers. But wonder who they take orders from?-----You ask ----
Serving Communion (Inclusive Version)----To me this is saying who can give Communion?Jesus is my Lord , I lison to Him.Communion its self, is to remember That Jesus is Lord. Could we not read?--------------------------------------
-Heres is your light Morning---------------
-The Ministers are preaching to a room Full of Priests and wondering who can give Communion. How sad that we can, baptize . We can, cast out demons .We can, speak in new tongues. and if we pick a serpent or drink any deadly thing. It will not hurt us.We can lay hands on the sick and they will recover. I try not to pick up or drink a deadly thing . The others I have done.To my way of thinking , WHO can give, Communion ? The same one Who gave it first. Jesus the One who is in all those that Follow Him. God Bless--- airclean33
GordW
DKS wrote: GordW
Posted on: 02/20/2012 13:48
During worship we have volunteers do the serving. This can (and has) included children and youth. However in the UCCan communion and baptism are only to take place if an ordained person or a licensed diaconal minster/designated lay minister/sacraments elder (one of the 3, they are all different roles) is present to preside.
It's a bit more complicated that that, Gord. Anyone with a license to perform the sacraments can preside. That includes ordained ministers (their license is permanent until they go on the DSL(V) and (DSL(D)), diaconal ministers, designated lay ministers, those being admitted from other denominations, student supply ministers, candidate supply ministers, intern supply ministers, diaconal supply ministers and scaramental elders.
Then there is a group of people who are given authority to preside at communion at presbytery meetings; That group includes diaconal ministers and lay persons who are elected as the presiding officer of the presbytery. They can only celebrate communion and not perform baptisms.
And to further complicat matters it sometimes depends on how the motion is worded whether the licensee (other than ordained folk) can preside anywhere in the Presbytery or just in the congregation where they are serving. ANd then different Conferences have different approaches as to how easily licenses are granted
Tabitha
MC/Jae Are any of your
Posted on: 02/20/2012 14:28
MC/Jae Are any of your elders/deacons women?
It's sounding like in your congregation only select men can preside and serve communion.
Even the Catholics allow trained women to serve communion (traing is for lay servers).
crazyheart
Good question, Tab.
Posted on: 02/20/2012 14:38
Good question, Tab.
MC jae
Tabitha wrote:MC/Jae Are any
Posted on: 02/20/2012 18:22
At my church, no. Within the FEB, there are a very few female Deacons. The denomination has never officially sanctioned the idea of women holding such an office, however, so their being Deacons is controversial.
Women have served it before. Most recently the wife of one of the Deacons participated. In my 17 years or so in the denomination, however, I have not once seen a woman preside.
crazyheart
Too bad. Sooooooo not
Posted on: 02/20/2012 19:54
Too bad. Sooooooo not inclusive.
Tabitha
and who can RECEIVE
Posted on: 02/20/2012 20:13
and who can RECEIVE communion?
Can all? only church members? all who were baptised as adults?
I like the inclusivity of the UC of C. It's usually all who want to can partake.
MC jae
crazyheart wrote: Too bad.
Posted on: 02/20/2012 20:18
Too bad. Sooooooo not inclusive.
Women are actively involved in the life of our congregation. Our church takes a complimentary approach. We believe men and women are equal, we believe everyone has a valuable contribution to make to the church. We simply believe, based on our understanding of the Bible, that God desires men and women to have different roles from each other in the church, home, and state. Of course, when I say "we" there, I mean "we" as a corporate entity.
MC jae
Tabitha wrote:and who can
Posted on: 02/20/2012 20:20
All can. We are encouraged to examine ourselves, of course, before doing so. Are we truly in the Lord? Are we at odds with any of our brothers or sisters?
When is it not?
kaythecurler
Morningcalm - could you
Posted on: 02/20/2012 20:42
Morningcalm - could you explain what things your denomination think are 'guy' things and what are reserved as 'women's work'? It sounds like women can't be ordained, does this change if they feel called by God to ordination? The Roman Catholic church don't think women should be ordained either. They claim they don't believe in birth control too, but a lot of their congregation members use it anyway.
Are men allowed to prepare meals in your church kitchen? Take care of babies in the nursery?
MC jae
kaythecurler
Posted on: 02/20/2012 21:56
I can try. Basically women can do all kinds of service work except for being Pastors, Elders (and in the vast majority of our congregations) Deacons. Also, while there are plenty of opportunities for women to teach Bible studies and the like, they don't get much of a chance if any to preach. Men can do everything the women can, plus hold those offices and preach.
So women can do A, while men can do A + B. In this way, we spare women the responsibility of being top servant leaders.
You're right, women can't be ordained and no, it doesn't matter if they feel they have been called. The thing is, kay, the denomination would deny that God calls women to fulfill that role.
Oh yes. At my own church men frequently help in preparing the meals (although usually a woman will lead in meal preparation). Men who have had the appropriate police check can work with the young children and babies (we don't have a nursery), although none really express much of an interest in taking care of infants other than their own.
somegalfromcan
One of the reasons I value
Posted on: 02/20/2012 22:36
One of the reasons I value being a part of the United Church is that anyone - regardless of gender, race, sexual orientation, etc - can choose to take leadership in any and all aspects of church life, including communion.
MC jae
somegalfromcan wrote: One
Posted on: 02/20/2012 22:43
One of the reasons I value being a part of the United Church is that anyone - regardless of gender, race, sexual orientation, etc - can choose to take leadership in any and all aspects of church life, including communion.
Can they? If I'm not mistaken the UCCanada has quite a system set up in terms of discerning just who can lead in ordained ministry. To be ordained, as I understand it, a person needs to have at least a Masters degree. It's not like anyone can just up and choose to lead.
somegalfromcan
I didn't say it was easy, but
Posted on: 02/20/2012 22:52
I didn't say it was easy, but your gender, race or sexual preference will not hold you back from holding these positions. Also, I was not just talking about ordained ministry leadership roles. I was also thinking about things like being elders, members of the board, etc.
MC jae
somegalfromcan wrote: I
Posted on: 02/21/2012 06:56
I didn't say it was easy, but your gender, race or sexual preference will not hold you back from holding these positions. Also, I was not just talking about ordained ministry leadership roles. I was also thinking about things like being elders, members of the board, etc.
Well, you did say (emphasis mine), "choose to take leadership in any and all aspects of church life"
I realize that the UCCanada will ordain people regardless of gender, race, or sexual preferences.
The FEB will ordain regardless of race.
kaythecurler
Interesting reply
Posted on: 02/20/2012 23:23
Interesting reply Morningcalm. Is the Baptist church gaining or losing adherents these days?
Personally speaking I find it seems demeaning for people to be slotted into spots based on their gender, sexual leanings or color. A friend was told it was inappropriate for him to work in the nursery on Sunday mornings - child care was a Womens Ministry. He chose to go to the home of a single mom and take care of the children so she could go to church in peace.
somegalfromcan
I'm not sure where the
Posted on: 02/20/2012 23:29
I'm not sure where the confusion lies MC, but there is nothing to stop anyone from pursuing ordination if that is how they feel called by God to lead their lives.
Tabitha
OK Just a few points 1.
Posted on: 02/20/2012 23:56
OK Just a few points
1. JAE/MC speaks for his church-Federation of Evangelical Baptists.
I attended a community baptist church when in NWT.North American baptist I believe. They ordain women and elders can be male or female. In Edmonton there is a congregation who have chosen to call 2 woman in a row to serve their church.
In the UC of C-my current minister does NOT have her master's. She is not ordained but commissioned. Don't know the full story but life circumstances did not allow her to do masters.
If you feel called by God and approved through the discernment process there is a way -a special path-for those without an under grad degree-at least at AST. to do ordination.
MC jae
kaythecurler
Posted on: 02/21/2012 06:58
Interesting reply Morningcalm. Is the Baptist church gaining or losing adherents these days?
Sorry kay, I don't have those stats. I believe it's been observed on here by others before that the evangelical churches are not really gaining or losing members -- that lateral slides take place.
Okay.
MC jae
Tabitha wrote:1. JAE/MC
Posted on: 02/21/2012 07:01
Not in any kind of official capacity.
In the UC of C-my current minister does NOT have her master's. She is not ordained but commissioned. Don't know the full story but life circumstances did not allow her to do masters.
If you feel called by God and approved through the discernment process there is a way -a special path-for those without an under grad degree-at least at AST. to do ordination.
Right, so again not just anyone can up and choose to be involved in any kind of ministry. You are right though -- there are different Baptist denominations (we Baptists are rather famous for our splits) and each has its own rules and guidelines.
DKS
Quote:Can they? If I'm not
Posted on: 02/21/2012 08:00
No, that's not accurate. The qualifications for ordination do not require a Masters degree.Many have that degree, but it is not a requirement.
MC jae
DKS wrote: Quote:Can they?
Posted on: 02/21/2012 17:36
No, that's not accurate. The qualifications for ordination do not require a Masters degree.Many have that degree, but it is not a requirement.
I thought a person was required to go to a UCCanada seminary and graduate with degree. If that is not the case, what requirements are necessary?
chansen
MorningCalm
Posted on: 02/21/2012 17:53
I can try. Basically women can do all kinds of service work except for being Pastors, Elders (and in the vast majority of our congregations) Deacons. Also, while there are plenty of opportunities for women to teach Bible studies and the like, they don't get much of a chance if any to preach. Men can do everything the women can, plus hold those offices and preach.
So women can do A, while men can do A + B. In this way, we spare women the responsibility of being top servant leaders.
See? It's not sexism. It's chivalry. We used to spare women the responsibility of voting for the same reason.
Arminius
To my unitheistic mind, being
Posted on: 02/22/2012 13:55
To my unitheistic mind, being is being in constant communion with each other and God. The ritual of communion reminds us of that. Anyone who is mindful of it can serve communion, and anyone who wants to be reminded of it can receive communion.