I'm surprised.  I had actually wondered if they might be found not guilty - due to that "shadow of a doubt" thing & the Crown proving it's case in concrete evidence.   It is a precedent setting decision, I imagine.  Will be interesting to continue to follow the commentary.   Still ... no less sad for all involved - the girls, the family, the jury ....  

The story, pre-verdict (actually I am not sure...was the verdict already made yesterday...I wasn't paying close attention), interviewing the family's lawyer, was on CNN yesterday too...I'm sure they'll take an angle on it too.

Tying "honour" killings to any one culture misses the point that it is something present in many cultures. In those cultures, people often blame their religious beliefs (whether it is Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, etc)

There is no such thing as an "honour killing"… it's a delusion.  I feel very sad for the whole family. None of it makes "sense" … it's a story of exquisite suffering all round.

I see a need for some compassion for the survivors, killers though they are. 

Did you also hear that under Quebec's "no fault" auto insurance rules, the father could get over $300k? (something like $47k for each of the daughters +). Being the perp of a crime makes no difference, apparently.

Gobsmacked.

Yes, let's get off this topic of legal and cultural significance, and talk about the death of Jesus, because that's something we just don't talk about enough here...

Similarly, the Screen Actor's Guild Awards were last night, the radio told me this morning.  Hollywood celebrating movies and television is also something that doesn't happen often enough.  I mean, if they would only get dressed up and live a little, once in a while...

MikePaterson,

I agree that we like demonizing those who represent culture. Sometimes how messed up we, as societies, are only shows when somone does something that goes outside that "norm" Antisemitism was rampant the world over, though we look at is as having been "created" in Germany in the 1930's. Hitler is looked at instead of the culture that grew and nurtured him. (I mean a worldwide culture) Then, because he came from Germany, he must represent all Germans and it must be a "German thing". Yet, if we review comments made by Thomas Aquinas, one Pope after another, Luther, Francis Bacon. Washington, Jefferson.... it is a culture.

Instead of looking at the culture, we can focus on "the monsters" and monster make. We did it with segregationists. Bull Connor and George Wallace were not the only faces of racism. He once had the blessing of a culture. Racism was everywhere, not just in the south and not just in people with dogs or wearing bed linens. Orville Hubbard was above the Mason-Dixon Line. It was everywhere. One might have asked children's author Garth Williams and librarian Emily Reed if the face of racism objecting to a book about a white rabbit and a black rabbit was those at bridge club.

If we look at culture, Michigan still has a law on the books that adulterers get a life sentence. (That would be an unwritten female adulterers). Various US states make it either a misdemeanor or a felony (those laws were written and used to punish women almost exclusively).  In fact, "crime of passion" and "temporary insanity" come out of it being somehow ok or understandable to kill your wife. That the crime is somehow a "justifiable homicide". Texas had a clear history. It was not even a crime to kill a cheating wife. Your "crime of passion" did not even have to happen in the moment. You did not even have to kill her when you caught her, you could wait... get your affairs in order, save to buy a gun, train yourself in using one... then kill her.

If one looks around, homophobia and transphobia in culture is seen to somehow excuse violence, including murder. One can look at places people are not charged for killing LGBTQ folks or it is a crime of passion. One can look at buggery/sodomy laws and gross indeceny laws and their tie to religious taboos. One can look at gay panic law or using "unwanted sexual advances" as an excuse or juries who have their own prejudices.

They are not crimes of passion, they are crimes of poison. The poison is sexism, racism, xenophobia, homophobia, transphobia, repression, classism....

When someone is poisoned, they too are a victim.

Thank you, Seeler, for bringing up the other children.

How do you live with the fact you were the one who told a dad who did this?

I had a friend who told about her friends "making out" at a sleep over. One girls parents reacted in such a way that she hung herself at 15. The one who told was never the same.

When talking to people about coming out, it is sad, but as a gay person I know to ask if they think they will be safe. So many folks do not think about it.

hopefully, while they are all in jail someone will give them the bible

Sure, hand them a different book, one that talks about murdering people who

work on the sabbath

curse their parents

are gay

follow another religion

are not a virgin on their wedding night

commit adultery

practice witchcraft or are fortune tellers

hit their parents

fornicate....

Hi SG -- Please let me know what parts I should throw away. I take it first all the Old Testment. Please let me know.35 years later and those in leader ship of U.C.C are still saying the Bible is wrong.

airclean,

I love the Bible. This UCCer says leave the Bible alone.

I simply see it with the scales off my eyes and I do not wear blinders about what it says.

I do not think everything in its pages is always right and it puts me in good company, because many, Jesus included, challenged the letter of the law.

I love the Bible. I, however, do not see it as a science textbook or a history textbook. I see it as a collection of books written by people to tell their history, their beliefs, their myths, their songs, their poems, their stories, their experiences...

What I said above and more is contained in the pages of the Bible.

Sure, we could once more work on what is included in the Old Testament. Yes, I said once more, it happened during the Reformation.

We could be Marcionites.

We would have to do some work on the New Testament too. Jesus does not exactly say the stoning is forbidden. He says her accusers are gone. One would think having known stones were aimed at him, he might have said something about stoning as forbidden.

We would have to clarify some in Matthew 15 and Mark 7 where it says
"....let him be put to death, but you say...."
to read "those idiots back then said and you say you believe but..." or something

Maybe we could just take a magic marker and cross out Revelation 11 :5 and well 13:10 and ... I guess 16:5-6... maybe we outta just rip that book out?

What about Hebrews 10:28-29?

Any suggestions on rewtiting the crucifixion? I mean, Jesus did not say give that speech about the wrong of killing those beside him or the evils of killing.

Does saying that mean I do not like the Bible? No. It means I love the Bible. It also means that I am sick of supersessionism and two Gods in supposed monotheism.
"That is the OT God, not my God"

I love the books, the poems, the songs, the stories....I see how people have read them and changed....In the past and today.They went from owning women and children and other human being and seeking vengeance and killing for every infraction... I see that we, like the Bible's peoples, can evolve by the Spirit. That though slavery is in the New Testament it is not right - and we can say that.... we should say that.... that when we want to change, we do not have to tear apart or rewrite the books. We simply do as Jesus did and walk a different way.

AC33, this isn't the thread for dissecting your posts.  Go look bad on another thread.

Do you know that airclean?  Have you read the Quran?  Do you actually know what it says about people of other religions, particularly those of the Jewish or Christian faith discussing their beliefs?    I admit that I haven't read the Quran but it is my understanding that Islam has a great deal of respect for the 'people of the book'.

 Also, did you not know that many people in Canada do go by the Quran? That's what freedom of religion is all about.

But from what I understand this family did not follow any religion  - so neither the Bible or the Quran would be sacred to them.   Again that is what freedom of religion is all about.  They are not forced to follow a particular religion, or any religion.

airclean33,

I cannot believe of all I posted you only read that and I doubt most reading would assume I meant Matthew and Mark, or their authors, were idiots. You however did, so I will address that.

The verses in Mathhew are 15"3-6 

Jesus replied, “And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? For God said, ‘Honor your father and mother’ and ‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.’ But you say that if anyone declares that what might have been used to help their father or mother is ‘devoted to God,’ they are not to ‘honor their father or mother’ with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition.

So, here the author says Jesus said they (another generation) - or God said- BLANK but you (the generation of Jesus' time) say....

My comment was that the author, for clarity, could have said, they (another generation)were idiots (harder to claim God is an idiot, though)

This could read, "what are you doing breaking God's command to kill 'em?"

The same applies to Mark 7

In other words, Jesus in these passages does not clearly say "don't kill those kids who curse their parents. You shouldn't have to begin with and you shouldn't now or ever, ever, ever in the future. Period."

Wondering how that will be read?

I agree, chansen, the Quran and the Bible and the Torah... they all contain things that I find horrid, and disgusting and wrong.  

Immoral is not the word I would choose, because morals/values/mores... are about standards of behaviour and acceptability during a snapshot in time, not for time eternal. What we are talkign about was standard, acceptable the world over during that time, regardless of faith or lack thereof. In others words, they were moral, ick. The same way as it was once moral to put me in a Canadian jail as a "dangerous offender" for being gay. That is why I won't use that word.

Is killing going to be in those books? Most certainly. An "I have the RIGHT way" mentality leads to creating enemies and fights and maybe how to wipe them out, whether it is over land, in politics... and yes, in religion. Because it is human nature.

A book from another time will advocate forced masturbation for a woman who is hysterical. It is not that the book itself is atrocious, that the people who wrote it were, the doctors who did it were (they were working on the best info they had to do good) or that science is or that medicine is (because it was later declared wrong by those same folks)....it is that the past is the past and we hopefully learn as we grow... one reader can choose pick it up and say 'this is a perfect book and every word is correct and right and just"....another can say "they were way off back or "boy was that wrong".

People are people, religious or not.

Yes, but religious people can always find justification for the worst acts, if they only look to their scriptures.  I'm not saying that happened here, but it can, and does happen.

*blinks*

causes blindness

your a master 

IMO the maligning of Islam and the supposed superiority of Christianity has been way overdone.

I thought most were Muslems 

Chansen, I presum that you knew this before looking it up.   And that airclean has given you premission to speak for him.

Airclean made a statement that I take to be presumptions and dangerous - possibly spreading hate.   It had no place in this thread discussing members of a family murdering other members of the family.   From what I understand they were not practicing Muslims, and their crime was not related to their religion or lack of it. 

Because I had my doubts about the truth of his statement I ask him (not you) if he knew the truth of his statement, not if he could google and find quotes to back him up, but if her Knew.   

I really doubt if he did.    And I think it dangerous to spread half-truths and innuendo that is only vaguely related to the topic at hand.