I go through times when I read and post to R & F and other times when the topics just don't really interest me.  I'm not really engaged with many of the topic right now and so spend most of my time elsewhere...cms

Well unfortunately the fundies seem to want to control the R&F forum the same way they want to control God.

IMHO it would be a mistake to let them own either.

Fortunately they are easy to parry, just tedious at times, what with all the empty religious rhetoric they toss about.

My advice would be to simply ignore them, Just skip over any replies they make. Leave the simple and tedious slogging of refuting thier circular reasoning, spurious claims of truth, and idle speculations to those of us who take the duty upon ourselves.

As one who was that way for many years, I can tell you that the brainwashing is insidious and pervasive. We were taught to look for people trying to use reason, and to consider them our enemy, and refuse to listen to anything they say.

The only way to get through that kind of programming is for the person to realize the futility of it themselves. Until they decide to see, you can't make them be less blind. That's how it was with me. Although I believe God helped me a lot by  showing me the fallacies of what I was insisting He had to be.

i agree. 

i also ignore some posts because they require too much thinking, and as a student I only have so much energy to think in an intellectual forum.

I like to stick to topics where I speak from personal experience. It's not important that others accept my beliefs, but I like to use the Religion forum to help discover the right language and words to use when explaining my beliefs.

I also like it when people challenge my assumptions, since it often leads me to discovers errors in my thinking, and as well errors in how I express things.  Without this forum and others I would have never learned for example that people understand things in different ways than I intend. This helps me see that I need to use different ways of communicating my beliefs.

The one thing I dislike about this forum, is that too often I end up using language that is declaritive. Instead of saying for example, You should never, or This is the way, I need to use, This is what I believe, or my experence or understanding is.

It happens in other forums too, by I do it more often in the Religion forum.

It's particularly helpfull in this way.

I stopped to comment because the R&F forum is filled with new age people, esoterics, Buddhists, and agnostics.

This forum doesn't deal with faith anymore. Nobody shares, just discusses or questions Christianity. The forum topics are dominated with things like "Is God real?" or "Do we need Jesus for salvation?"

I would like to participate in a discussion in which nobody tries to explain to me that doctrines are evil, or that Jesus was just a teacher.

So, in other words, you just want discussions that fit your particular idea of what Christianity should be.

I think you just made my point.

Yes. My biggest problem was that too often in the past was that the forum was used to direct hate against me and other GLBT. Not only was it repetitive, but the large amount of it was difficult for me to deal with. In particular those titles that would show up in the recently active list.

It seems too me, that that has been greatly reduced since last summer. I do not know why, maybe it's because member are being more polite, or maybe it is because the forum is being moderated better.  

What ever the reason for I would like to thank the members and the administrators.  Thank you all.

Wondercafe is now helping me much more as a result, and helping me deal with my anger, instead of inflaming it.

I feel it is even more a place of healing for me, and a place where I can go and not feel alone, and a place which helps supports my faith and grow. I have also started to have faith in the goodness of others again,  and am beginning to see that the church can change, and that there are many good people in it.  

I am also learning there are many misunderstandings in the church,  but that Wondercafe has through these dialogues cleared up more misunderstandings than any other place in the church.

There is no other place like it for me. It feels a role that my local church can not. I do not think that might be the case for everyone, but with my disabilities/differences it is accessible to me in a way local churches can not be.(ie open even when I I can not sleep at night) 

I also learn from many disscussions that I do not participate in.

I feel that I ( a lefty) sometimes do the same thing as fundies.

I also want to thank you Witch for being a member of wondercafe.  You have shown me a lot about how to be civil, while still expressing your beliefs well, and holding your ground.

You are a shining example of  not just your faith, but of all people of faith.

it is ironic, but as a Christian, I can see the divine acting in you, more than I do in many Christians, including myself.

Thank You.

LOL , very true and its all fine and dandy , till the bible believing christians come along and spoil there fun

Ha!

I had to laugh at witch's comment. "Full of fundies"? Just read the topic of the first ten threads. Do they sound fundie to you? Look, not everyone is a neo-pagan esoteric christian anarchist who questions Jesus.

Okay. Why people don't post here anymore? Because the ones who want to share their faith have switched to conservative churches (charismatic, pentecostal, baptist, nondenominational,... ), talking to real people about faith? I always like to go to a conference. You will be surprised how many "fundies" (if that is the new word for spiritual Christians) are living on this planet.

I second this. I also appreciate your comments Alex.

I don't always have the words to express my faith. Faith to me is not black and white, right and wrong.

Some people just do not post a lot. Nobody can hijack anything if you just ignore the posts.

Also remember it is harder for people to discuss their faith if it is of the variety that goes beyond what words can express. That is more likely why we see people who have faiths that stand on "certain and absolute beliefs"   I believe that are not people of a lesser faith, but that it is just easier to express it.

 So they will be able to post more frequently and often.  Nothing wrong with that, but it is just a reality.

LOOK Go to a Hillsong Conference or any other conference of a conservative church and you will see why people avoid R&F here.

Why should you struggle with all those borderline people in this forum, when you have tens of thousands of spiritual Christians around you who don't ask "whether Jesus is God" or "If Jesus is needed for salvation." Those people, like me, are not comfortable in a place like this. We want to have people around us who agree 90% with us, the basic principles or how esoteric, neo paganist, agnostic, and buddhists call it the evil evil doctrines.

http://hillsong.com/

http://www.therocksandiego.org/

http://www.saddleback.com/

http://www.willowcreek.org/

HUGE mega churches, but they make people feel home.

I occasionally read in the R & F area. I even more occasionally post. For me, it is a combination of usually reading the same bantering over and over by literal bible believers, my lack of interest in taking the time to post among those who do not appear to really care to listen, my lack of knowledge, confidence and interest in many of the topics, and my knowledge that there are others who have similar beliefs to me who do a very good job of posting what I may be thinking but unable to articulate for various reasons. I do appreciate some topics in R & F and the insight and learnings I am able to take away. If I don’t have much time and/or energy it is much easier to offer playful or less ‘weighty’ responses in other areas of wc.

Initially (3 years ago) when I first signed on to wondercafe I was surprised. I knew that this site was open to anyone, I just thought that more ‘typical’ United Church folks would be posting. As an out lesbian with a feminist, liberal perspective on theology and life I did (and sometimes still do) not feel that especially the R & F forum is the place for me to ‘hang out’. I do enjoy participating in the others areas of wondercafe and for me, that is just fine.

Because It is my belief that Jesus struggled and talked to, and learned from all people.

Look at the story of the Phonician Women. Also the story of the Roman soldier whom Jesus healed his "most loved servant" after the soldier asked him too.

The soldiers was a pagan, part of the Roman army that was oppressing Israel, and according to some translations, the servant was his same-sex lover. Jesus after meeting him only had praise for him.

Jesus also thanked the pagan Phonician Women for teaching him something.

Well, yes, that pretty well describes what I'd be looking for.  Would that it would happen more often.  Seems, though (with rare exceptions), that after the first page or so the posts seem to want to generate more heat than light.  Some people would appear to be far more interested in converting others than listening to (and maybe actually learning something from) others.  Does what I just wrote make any sense?

Good point geo.

That might be true for some but not me.

 I either did so unintentional, due to my awkwardness with language, or I did so intentional out of anger.

Please forgive me for bashing you in the past.  It is wrong to do so. 

Oh and what cjms said too.

Hi Ichthys,

And none of that qualifies as being either religious or faithful?  Perhaps it isn't a part of the Christian faith or religion but does that mean that it has no place here at all?

That doesn't even work as a generalization.

And neither of those address religion or faith?  You seem to find such threads contradictory to both and if that is the case perhaps the problem is that your definition of either is severely limited.

Maybe you don't like where those particular threads go and if that is the case chime in.  If you think that a stick approach is going to yield better results than a carrot approach you should think again before posting.

Words are important.  Both when one is posting and when one is reading a post.

I personally have lifted up that I believe Jesus if nothing less than God the Son.  I also have no problem discussing doctrine.  I'm not a fan of all doctrines as I am decidedly on the Reformed side of the Christian family.

What you sow you also reap.

It is as true in the Bible as it is here.

Grace and peace to you.

John

Maybe what we need is another section called "Anti-Religion and No-faith"...

There the reasonable people can talk about faith and religion, and the fundies can pretend that's where Satan lives.

Oh, thank you for reminding me, I forgot that part.

...and the fundies can pretend that's where Satan lives, and engage in prejudicial attacks and slagging of other people and faiths, and other Christians who believe only slightly differently, and by so doing, show us what the "life changing power of Christ" turns you into.

;-)