revjohn
Trinity discussion for everyone
Posted on: 01/15/2008 10:02
Hi All,
The statement has been made, "I would love to hear some arguments as to why we believe in the trinity which states that Jesus is God."
I think jennybeam has gotten her wish and she is hearing some arguments. Few seem to be dealing with this particular topic.
I've launched this alternative thread simply because jennybeam made it very clear I wasn't welcome in hers.
I am not dealing with her question as asked (she uses "we" I will be using "I"). I welcome all discussion so long as it is respectfully offered.
Here we go:
I believe in the doctrine of the Trinity simply because it has always been a part of my Christian understanding. I can no more step away from it than I can step away from the understanding that my hair is actually a dark chestnut brown and not black as some unobservant folk insist.
The Trinity simply is.
As I read the scriptures I see text which gives me an idea where the doctrine of the Trinity may have come from, of course, believing in the Trinity in the first place conditions me to read it.
In the beginning is a very rich phrase and in the book of Genesis we have God speaking Creation into being and the Spirit of God hovering over the waters of Creation's birth.
This could simply be poetic language and not an actual distinction between a God creating and a God hovering. My Trinitarian lense does distinguish and I see God and God's Spirit.
In the gospel of John, "In the beginning" is also a very rich phrase and I believe that it is intentionally used to make a specific point. In the beginning was the Word and this Word, according to John, was present with God and this Word was God. Is John being as poetic as the author of Genesis? Is there really only one God present instead of God and the Word?
Could be, and yet, the Trinitarian lense makes a distinction so that I see God and God's Word as separate entities. John goes on to testify about the Creation of the world and because he has, I believe, deliberately invoked Genesis the Spirit of God must also be present.
The picture now has three entities God, God's Spirit and God's Word or it is just poetic imagery and there is only the one God present.
John starts to define which leads me to suspect that John is no longer being merely poetic. John identifies God's Word and incarnates God's Word in the person of Jesus whom we also call Christ.
John later, in the great pastoral prayer of Jesus at the last supper, will complete the division by postulating that God's Spirit (the Paraclete) has its own work to do and that work is distinctly its own.
Why not three God's?
Well John does a lot of equating work in the great pastoral prayer with all of the, I in you and you in me and we in they and what not.
It could be that all of that is simply poetic language also.
I think this (the gospel of John more than any other) is where the concept of the Trinity gets launched.
The question has always been is it something real which is launched or something imaginary which has been launched?
Personally, I think that is practically impossible to tell.
John's gospel is not likely written in John's lifetime"”that doesn't automatically render John's gospel a false or invented document which is an eisegetical account of the life of Jesus and its meaning.
There is a lot of historical opinion on whether or not the doctrine of the Trinity is warranted.
I admit that I'm biased to believe that the doctrine is warranted.
That doesn't mean that my bias is wrong.
So what do I do with it? How do I approach the doctrine of the Trinity and how do I use the doctrine in my daily life?
It is rather sweet liturgically, as it allows for a three fold repetition in prayers without becoming boringly repetitive. So in prayers I am able to address Father, Son and Holy Spirit or any other Trinitarian construct be it relational or economical rather than repeat God, God, God, God, God throughout the length of the service and sounding like a leaky faucet.
Do I think that the doctrine of the Trinity is a benchmark for proving Christianity?
Why in the name of all that is holy would I?
Spiritual discernment is more than a doctrinal check list! It requires engagement and thought not a mindless adherence to a list of proper bits and things.
I use the doctrine in my relationship with my God. I use the doctrine in the worship life of the congregations I serve which, in turn, will further my relationship with the members of the congregations and hopefully, amongst themselves.
Is any of this reason enough for me to believe in the doctrine of the Trinity?
I believe so.
You might believe otherwise and that is okay by me because I have never believed that this particular doctrine was a club to beat folk into line with nor, have I embraced works righteousness which would make me think what I do and what I believe forces God to embrace me.
God loves me because of who God is not because of what I believe.
Grace and peace to you.
Amen.
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Comments
revjohn
Posted on: 01/15/2008 10:03
hospitible bump.
Arminius
Posted on: 01/15/2008 11:41
For me, the Holy Trinity is a metaphor for the Triple Paradox of Truth.
As I just stated in RevJohn's thread on God, the scientifc community regards the Principle of Complementarity to be the underlying cosmic principle. According to this principle, opposites necessitate each other. That leads to interesting conclusions about the nature of truth.
Analysis and synthesis necessitate each other; they are the two opposite pillars of truth. But the analysis necessarily consists of thesis and antithesis, so we are looking at a three-fold truth: synthesis, thesis, and antithesis. All three are equally true, but the synthesis is regarded as the higher truth, because the other two emerged from synthesis, and will ultimately return to synthesis.
If there is to be one single ultimate truth, then it is the truth of the synthesis. This ultimate truth, sometimes described as Supra Synthesis, contains within itself the synthesis-thesis-antithesis triad of truth.
Thus, the triune God, or the three-fold God united as one or contained within one Godhead, is a metaphor for the three-fold cosmic truth contained within one ultimate truth.
In Cosmic Unity,
Arminius
seeler
Posted on: 01/15/2008 18:44
As one who grew up in the UCC I believe very much in the trinity. I see it as three aspects of one God. The God-head (Father, Mother, creator, Sustainer, etc). The son - Christ - God incarnate, one of us, living among us, showing us the nature of God. The Spirit - that dwells within us - the very breath of life. Three aspects of one God. Trinity.
lastpointe
Posted on: 01/15/2008 21:54
Thanks Rev John for your thoughts. I have always believed/understood the trinity to be so. I can't explain it in a more than childlike manner but it is something that I believe in.
I admit that i am confused by those who believe in GOd, are Christian by statement and yet don't hae the same belief in the trinity and a divine Jesus but i realilse that the path we are on , while divergent and twisted is ultimately leading us all to a greater communion with God. My path suits me but i can't expect others to find the path i am on but to find their own.
It does sadden me that there is so much strife in the large family of Christianity though.
sister
Posted on: 02/04/2008 17:17
Hi.
Arminius addresses your discussion in the light of "truth"...or his interpetation of truth, which I have responded to in his post on "what is truth?'
Both of these posts I would have to believe are definately linked,as there cannot be an issue on the subject of the doctrine of Trinity, if there was not some sense of the knowledge of truth.
And again, as in the issue of truth, it has to be met with its witness,as in the case of John the baptist.John was not a coincidence to the acknowledgement of Christ, and was excepted as an authentic representative to the coming of Christ's time.
And only to those that believe in this truth and, like John,pay the price of sacrifice to the makings of that which is truth, "Christ"....and ultimatly, the Trinity.
I believe that these subjects for many, lie more in the realm of "mysteries" and for that reason, can be left alone....and simply excepted as such. As someone else said, they think of Trinity more in the sense of like a child...if it is said, then it must be...and on the simplicity of that thought process...just believing, is really all the criteria a person of faith really needs.
The hope that the Trinity gives,in the mean time, is exemplary, as it seperates that which is carnal into that which is far more awe inspiring.
You said " God loves me because of who God is not because of what I believe"
I would agree with you in part...but I would like to add, that He also loves you for your belief....like Jesus, if you are who you say you are, would not the Father love you for that which bears witness to His word "truth", and ultimatly, make you a partaker of the Trinity....when filled with the holy spirit....make you one with God.
God also said "let us make man in our image and our likeness"
The saying in life is "How can you soar with the eagles if your walking around with a bunch of turkeys?"
Jesus said "I am" and then we are told that the true sense of Christianity is to be Christlike, does this not qualify the true believer to be heir to that which justifies the Trinity?
Food for thought....sister
revjohn
Posted on: 02/04/2008 21:19
Sister,
Hi,
You wrote:
You said " God loves me because of who God is not because of what I believe"
I would agree with you in part...but I would like to add, that He also loves you for your belief....like Jesus,
Before there was a possibility of my ever believing God loved me.
Is this true or is this not true?
If it is true my statement stands. God loves me because of who God is and not because of what I believe. Sola Gratia.
If it is not true my statement falls and God cannot love me because of who he is but rather God must love me for what I do. Works righteousness.
You wrote:
if you are who you say you are,
I'm not sure what you intend to communicate by this remark.
You wrote:
would not the Father love you for that which bears witness to His word "truth", and ultimatly, make you a partaker of the Trinity....when filled with the holy spirit....make you one with God.
If God could not love me until such as you describe was in place God never would have sent the Holy Spirit to me to reveal to me my need. God's love precedes all else or it is of absolutely no import at all.
If God's love is based on our own merit. There will be none atttending the wedding feast of the lamb.
Grace and peace to you.
John
sister
Posted on: 02/05/2008 01:15
The fascinating part of this whole wondercafe areana, is it gives opportunity for all, to test the spirits....would you agree?
I wrote "if you are who you say you are"..and you asked my intent of this....
My reason was in response to your statement .."do I think that the doctrine of the Trinity is a benchmark for proving christianity?
Why, in the name of all that is holy, would I?
In order to assume that which is holy, is it not that in some way, you declare to know some form of truth, and if that is the case, and I, who like you, am a person that claims to seek that which is true...does it not seem fair to seek out that which proclaims to know at least what is holy?
You said "If Gods love is based on our own merit, there will be none attending the wedding feast of the lamb"
I couldn't agree with you more!
And the Lord said "do not give that which is holy to the dogs"....and thank God for she who said "but Lord, do not even the dogs eat the crumbs from the masters table?"
Yes, the love of God is everything....but why then inquire?
Why ask a question, if it is only based on love?
Why seek to find? Why knock, so that the door may be opened? Why ask, and it shall be given?
Not at all to take away from the love of God...I was adding to your hope in this doctrine of Trinity, and taking another peice of light on this subject that I thought you might enjoy, as did I with your querie...sister
revjohn
Posted on: 02/05/2008 07:16
sister,
Hi,
You wrote:
The fascinating part of this whole wondercafe areana, is it gives opportunity for all, to test the spirits....would you agree?
I do agree.
You wrote:
In order to assume that which is holy, is it not that in some way, you declare to know some form of truth,
If one equates holiness with truth that would be true. I do not equate holiness with truth. To be holy is to be set apart for some reason and to be set apart by God rather than by my own action. To be holy is not to be automatically better than others so much as it is to be different.
When I appeal to the holy I do not appeal on the grounds that it is truth I appeal to it on the grounds that it is different. The criteria establishing difference is vast. I do not need to be holy (as set apart) to recognize that others partake of holiness (are set apart). God, first and foremost, belongs to elements and events that are distinctly set apart from the rest of creation.
You wrote:
does it not seem fair to seek out that which proclaims to know at least what is holy?
Perhaps. It takes no depth of knowledge or lifelong study to know. The ability to distinguish one from the other is all that is required. In a box full of red crayons the green one stands out (unless one has a specific colour-blindness and then both might appear to be brown).
I do not need to be Islamic to observe Islam and not that there is a differentiation between the holy (set apart) and the vulgar (common). Nor do I need to seek out an Imam, so long as those I observe are religiously consistent I will note the differentiation.
You asked:
Yes, the love of God is everything....but why then inquire?
Why ask a question, if it is only based on love?
Why seek to find? Why knock, so that the door may be opened? Why ask, and it shall be given?
So that we can love in return. God's loving us requires nothing from us in order for it to be effectual. For us to be complete we must to fill that hole within us that leads us to do desparate things. Some will fill that hole with decidedly poor material and God is gracious and will point out that the patching job is incomplete and something better must be found.
We do not stand condemned for not finding it.
We do stand broken though.
We inquire, seek, knock and ask not to be made holy or to prove to God we are worthy of being loved but rather we do all these things so that we may be made whole.
God, by his calling grants us holiness.
We, by coming to know our God, experience wholeness.
You wrote:
Not at all to take away from the love of God...I was adding to your hope in this doctrine of Trinity, and taking another peice of light on this subject that I thought you might enjoy, as did I with your querie...sister
Thanks for clarifying your intent.
I hold fast to the doctrine of the Trinity not because I understand it. In fact, I am certain that on the day I do, with confidence, state that I understand it completely I will have passed from wisdom to folly.
The doctrine helps me to get a grasp on a God who is so much more than I can comprehend.
Believing it may set me apart from others but it does not make me holier than God has already made me.
Does it add to my wholeness? I expect that it does.
When trying to fill a God-sized hole on experiences more success with a God-sized patch.
Grace and peace to you.
John
sister
Posted on: 02/05/2008 14:08
revjohn
I would agree on all counts that we do all these things so that we may be made whole...
I would also agree it takes no depth of knowledge or lifelong study to know......
I would also agree with your green crayon illustration.....the green crayon is a product of its creator....and its color is not by its own choice, or merits, but rather by the discretion of its creator, and to bear witness to the green crayon, is only through the goodness of Gods love for us.
The love that (I think you speak of) can be expanded in the first epistle of John, chapter 4......a very good read....( I prefer King James)
We are told to love in deed and in truth...and hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before Him.
For if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our hearts, and knows all things.
So we can bear witness to Gods promises, that in the flesh there dwells NO good thing, but through God, the Son and the Holy Spirit , all things will be made manifest.
I only hope and pray, that whatever color I am, I am found worthy to be Gods servant......sister