Ichthys
Unsocial churches
Posted on: 03/08/2010 23:23
Hi,
As a progressive Christian who supports the social gospel, this is something that causes me sleepless nights:
Coming from Europe I realized that North American conservative christians also called "evangelicals" are the ONLY Christians that oppose social justice and pacifism! They usually dominate the United States but you also have them in Canada.
Go to Europe, churches support social justice and pacifism.
Go to Africa, Asia, and South America, churches support social justice (of course they do) and pacifism.
Go to Australia, churches support social justice and pacifism.
Why, tell me, WHY do those guys have to embarrass the other 1.9 billion Christians who believe that social justice and church go hand in hand and that a church must never support war? Or do you think that church should oppose social justice? Tell me what you think.
Ichthys
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Arminius
Why indeed!? I think the
Posted on: 03/08/2010 23:43
Why indeed!?
I think the unhealthy alliance between the extreme political right and the extreme religious right in the United States is to blame for this un-Christian "state." (Pun intended!)
MorningCalm
Ichthys wrote:Coming from
Posted on: 03/09/2010 08:11
Hi there Ichthys, As a conservative evangelical Christian, I have to ask, just what do you mean by "social justice"?
qwerty
Don't answer Ichthys! When
Posted on: 03/09/2010 08:33
Don't answer Ichthys! When you're finished patiently describing what everyone already knows "the frog" will argue with some detail of your description and derail the topic into an argument about what and what is not social justice. We all know what it is if only because every human is acutely aware of their own experience of its opposite, namely, social injustice.
I have to ask why if Mr. Frog can't answer your question using the example of social justice that he can't answer it using your second example of pacifism whose definition I imagine even the frog knows.
seeler
I can't speak for other
Posted on: 03/09/2010 09:15
I can't speak for other denominations since my experience has been with the UCC, but in my opinion we have a good record fo supporting social justice and continue to do so.
I also think that we have a pretty good record in promoting peace, although I do think that many in the church considered World War 11 a just war, I now question if there is such a thing as a just war and if peaceful methods could have been used.
efficient_cause
I think saying evangelicals
Posted on: 03/09/2010 11:15
I think saying evangelicals are not interested in social justice is tarring a lot of people with the same brush unjustly. Sojourners (http://sojo.net/) and Evangelicals for Social Action (http://www.esa-online.org/Display.asp?Page=home) are just two counter-examples that come to mind, and I'm sure there are many more.
While there are many who would call themselves 'evangelical' who I feel are deeply misguided (and some I would even consider heretical), on the flip side there are many who call themselves evangelical who are deeply concerned with issues of social justice.
That said, I agree with Arminius. Desire for political power has corrupted many.
Ichthys
@efficient_cause Yes, I know
Posted on: 03/09/2010 15:07
@efficient_cause Yes, I know about the evangelical left. But you have to admit that they are kind of 90-10.
efficient_cause
Whatever the proportion, the
Posted on: 03/09/2010 18:02
Whatever the proportion, the numbers are not insignificant, and should be acknowledged. 'Evangelical' shouldn't be used as a slur.
MorningCalm
qwerty wrote:I have to ask
Posted on: 03/09/2010 18:16
My only comment on pacifism would be that I believe most conservative evangelicals are not in that camp. We seem to believe that under certain conditions war is justifiable.
MorningCalm
qwerty wrote: Don't answer
Posted on: 03/09/2010 18:26
Don't answer Ichthys! When you're finished patiently describing what everyone already knows "the frog" will argue with some detail of your description and derail the topic into an argument about what and what is not social justice. We all know what it is if only because every human is acutely aware of their own experience of its opposite, namely, social injustice.
Really I just wanted to see if Icthys defined social justice according to liberal thought, in which case I would have to agree that if that is social justice, that conservatives do not agree with it.
joejack
Social issues in a Canadian
Posted on: 03/09/2010 18:39
Social issues in a Canadian church? How can that happen when we have a former NDP leader jumping ship to become a liberal? And I always thought the United Church was just the NDP at a prayer meeting???!!!!!!
MorningCalm
joejack wrote: And I always
Posted on: 03/09/2010 18:52
And I always thought the United Church was just the NDP at a prayer meeting???!!!!!!
What?! You mean it isn't?!
Mate
Manyh on the extreme
Posted on: 03/09/2010 19:57
Manyh on the extreme conservative right think that all other so called "Christians" are simply satan in sheeps clothing. This is the heresy of the extreme fundamentalists.
Shalom
Mate
MorningCalm
Mate wrote: Manyh on the
Posted on: 03/09/2010 20:25
Manyh on the extreme conservative right think that all other so called "Christians" are simply satan in sheeps clothing. This is the heresy of the extreme fundamentalists.
Many on the extreme liberal left think that other so called "Christians" are simply satan in sheeps clothing. This is the heresy of the extreme progressives.
See how easy that is to turn around.
RichardBott
Actually match3 and joejack,
Posted on: 03/09/2010 21:06
Actually match3 and joejack, it isn't.
A survey of the political stance of most United Church members would find us to be as diverse as the rest of the population of Canada.
Christ's peace - r
MorningCalm
RichardBott wrote: A survey
Posted on: 03/09/2010 21:12
A survey of the political stance of most United Church members would find us to be as diverse as the rest of the population of Canada.
Do you have an actual survey by an impartial party to back that up, Richard, because, frankly, I don't believe it.
chansen
match3frog.
Posted on: 03/09/2010 21:23
A survey of the political stance of most United Church members would find us to be as diverse as the rest of the population of Canada.
Do you have an actual survey by an impartial party to back that up, Richard, because, frankly, I don't believe it.
Considering the list of remarkably unlikely things you believe in as a Christian, why start disbelieving now?
RichardBott
match3 - ayup... check the
Posted on: 03/09/2010 21:36
match3 - ayup... check the '94 'unitrends' document.
It was done by a Canadian sociologist of religion, Dr. Reg Bibby.
Christ's peace - r
Ichthys
Thank you
Posted on: 03/09/2010 23:10
Thank you qwerty!
@match3frog "Many on the extreme liberal left think that other so called "Christians" are simply satan in sheeps clothing. This is the heresy of the extreme progressives."
Sorry, but that doesn't work because most liberal christians believe in universal salvation.
Motheroffive
Not to mention that most
Posted on: 03/10/2010 00:53
Not to mention that most don't believe in satan, either.
MorningCalm
Ichthys wrote: Sorry, but
Posted on: 03/10/2010 08:25
Sorry, but that doesn't work because most liberal christians believe in universal salvation.
They do. Then are they even really Christians. Of what need is Christ if everyone is saved with or without him.
abpenny
Hi Ichthys...it just seems so
Posted on: 03/10/2010 08:49
Hi Ichthys...it just seems so odd, doesn't it?? If you get that one figured out maybe you can tell me how the same camp supports Right to Life and war without seeing the inconsistancy.
airclean33
match3frog. wrote: Ichthys
Posted on: 03/10/2010 10:05
Sorry, but that doesn't work because most liberal christians believe in universal salvation.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
They do. Then are they even really Christians. Of what need is Christ if everyone is saved with or without him.----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Match--wrote----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
chansen
airclean33 wrote: match3frog.
Posted on: 03/10/2010 14:10
Sorry, but that doesn't work because most liberal christians believe in universal salvation.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
They do. Then are they even really Christians. Of what need is Christ if everyone is saved with or without him.----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Match--wrote----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What the hell are you talking about?
airclean33
chansen wrote: airclean33
Posted on: 03/10/2010 14:54
Sorry, but that doesn't work because most liberal christians believe in universal salvation.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
They do. Then are they even really Christians. Of what need is Christ if everyone is saved with or without him.----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Match--wrote----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What the hell are you talking about?---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
chansen
Jesus? He's not just Christ
Posted on: 03/10/2010 15:18
Jesus? He's not just Christ - He's my Lord and Savior.
LMAO...sorry, I can't continue to write like that without breaking down and honestly laughing out loud. It worked once with Tom, but I think you know too much about me by now.
There is scant evidence for a character named Jesus who lived and died as told in the gospels, outside of the gospels. To make the jump to "Son of God" is an even greater leap that I would not make based on what we know. "God" is an equally improbable thing that would require a great deal of evidence and explanation before it could be believed.
I guess what you're referring to, is if salvation is universal, doesn't that mean that I'll be saved? I can see why this would concern you. Why should I - a heretic and blasphemer - be offered the same salvation you've worked and prayed and believed your butt off for?
A few years ago, there was a YouTube sensation called "The Blasphemy Challenge". People posted short videos of themselves publicly denying the Holy Spirit. From their site:
You may damn yourself to Hell however you would like, but somewhere in your video you must say this phrase: "I deny the Holy Spirit."
Why? Because, according to Mark 3:29 in the Holy Bible, "Whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin."
The last thing I want, is for you to worry that I will be saved exactly as you will be saved. You've certainly worked harder for it, and deserve an atheist-free salvation. So here goes:
I, Craig Hansen, deny the Holy Spirit.
There. Problem solved.
airclean33
Chansen------ Your wrong I
Posted on: 03/10/2010 20:41
Chansen------ Your wrong I did not work to be Saved, I'm just a sinner saved buy grace. It's Free Chansen you don't have to work for it. Just accept it. I told you God set a place for you at his table . The chair is yours you must take it or leave it. Thats your choice alone. I will pray That you make the right choice Criag.
MorningCalm
airclean33
Posted on: 03/11/2010 00:29
Chansen------ Your wrong I did not work to be Saved, I'm just a sinner saved buy grace. It's Free Chansen you don't have to work for it. Just accept it. I told you God set a place for you at his table . The chair is yours you must take it or leave it. Thats your choice alone. I will pray That you make the right choice Criag.
Hi airclean, you say salvation is free, but then you say that to have it you must accept it. That act of acceptance would seem to me to be a work. I think rather that God simply saves. It isn't that we can accept God. It's that God may choose to accept us.
Ichthys
Of course. We have to accept
Posted on: 03/11/2010 03:41
Of course. We have to accept Jesus. Jesus saves us because of his grace, but also because we have faith in him. And real faith follows actions.
MorningCalm
Ichthys wrote: Of course. We
Posted on: 03/11/2010 08:32
Of course. We have to accept Jesus. Jesus saves us because of his grace, but also because we have faith in him. And real faith follows actions.
Let's just agree to disagree then. I believe Jesus is the one who chooses to accept us, not the other way around. He gives both the gift of faith and the gift of salvation.
"You didn't choose me. I chose you. I appointed you to go and produce lasting fruit, so that the Father will give you whatever you ask for, using my name." - John 15:16 (NLT)(Emphasis mine)
airclean33
match3frog. wrote: Ichthys
Posted on: 03/11/2010 09:04
Of course. We have to accept Jesus. Jesus saves us because of his grace, but also because we have faith in him. And real faith follows actions.
Let's just agree to disagree then. I believe Jesus is the one who chooses to accept us, not the other way around. He gives both the gift of faith and the gift of salvation.
"You didn't choose me. I chose you. I appointed you to go and produce lasting fruit, so that the Father will give you whatever you ask for, using my name." - John 15:16 (NLT)(Emphasis mine)
MorningCalm
airclean33 wrote:Hi
Posted on: 03/11/2010 21:24
John 3-16 (I think you mean John 3:16) is excellent reading. I have read it several times over. I don't agree with you, however, that we need to come to Christ and that we do so when God leads us. What I believe is that God just chooses to save some people. It may feel like you chose Christ, but I believe that that would be a choice you think you made after Christ had already saved you.
Yes, I agree.