In Alcoholics Anonymous, they sometimes use the expression “hitting bottom” to describe a state where some crisis allows you to perceive more accurately what is happening in your life. Defenses and illusions about yourself and life seem to become unsustainable.

In AA culture, this "hitting bottom" is usually seen to always be a good thing, since it often leads to a person seeking help to find a way out of self-destructive behavior. Personally, I don't think it's always a good thing. It's only good, in my view, when it happens in a human context where there is genuine faith, hope, and love available to help the person at “the bottom” understand herself and life in a way that fosters healing and growth. (I emphasize understand, because faith, hope, and love are not simply emotions; they are knowledgeable visions of life.) Apart from that healing context, “the bottom” can just become an abyss for the person where her life gets worse instead of better.

So what is “the bottom” in itself?  What you called  "existentialist dilemmas" are key here. Because if we really seek to know our human existence as it is (apart from our fantasies about how we wish it were), we discover a big existential dilemma -- that we are extremely dependent, even absolutely dependent, creatures. We depend on a number of conditions being “just so” simply in order to survive. And going beyond survival, to flourishing as a human being, requires even more conditions to be “just so.”

And so, “the bottom” in itself  is that place in which I become conscious of the reality that my existence is absolutely dependent upon multiple conditions, some of which are completely beyond my control.

And thus, when I am at the bottom, I can (metaphorically and sometimes literally) hear Death knocking loudly at the door, and I realize to some extent that at any moment I could be gone from this life.  And that creates fear, because something in me (I would say it is the Imago Dei within us -- that divine pattern in which the human soul is formed) longs not just to survive but to flourish and to never stop flourishing).

And so, at “the bottom,” the conditions for my survival (bodily health, a sane lifestyle, food, water, shelter, medicine, and so on) become clear. And yet, if the conditions for my flourishing as a person (faith, hope, and love) are not really present for me in human form at that juncture, I may not care whether I survive or not, much less whether I'm fulfilling my potential as a human being.

In truth, we are all absolutely dependent creatures. But we are not always conscious of that reality; we are not always at “the bottom.” Because, in fantasy, we can suspend ourselves very high up off the ground, imagining ourselves and our lives to be all sorts of things – the worst son on earth; the perfect daughter; the best lover; the one who doesn't deserve to be protected from harm; the one who will have the shiniest halo in heaven; etc., etc.. So, "being unworthy of grace" in this view would be one of many possible illusions that doesn't really exist on the "bottom."  On the bottom there is only the reality of our absolute dependence and the grace of God.

Ironically, the self-destructive things that we do in life are often aimed at perpetuating these kinds of fantasies that keep us off “the bottom,” where the truth of our existence would become clear.

On the other hand, sometimes there seems to be a real wisdom in staying a bit “off the ground,” when the surrounding human conditions really lack faith, hope, and love.

So, is “the bottom” good or evil? It can be either, depending on the real presence of faith, hope, and love.

These three are the core virtues that Aquinas understood as being wholly transcendental (meaning that although faith, hope, and love are infused into,  mediated through, and cultivated in our mortal human lives and relationships, they are divine in nature; they can't be manufactured by us.) They shine an eternal light onto “the bottom” which allows us to recognize that absolute dependence is not only the truth of who we are, but the ultimate best place to live, to flourish as a human being. All of the core practices of Christianity revolve around locating, transmitting, and cultivating faith, hope, and love.

Any philosophy or religion that is worth its salt really needs to have grappled with “the bottom.” As I understand it, one of the ways the Christian tradition has done that historically is through the concepts of Heaven and Hell. Heaven is “the bottom” in the presence of faith, hope, and love. And Hell is “the bottom” in their absence. So, in one sense, Heaven and Hell are not two different places at all, but two different ways of relating to the very same reality of human existence. The key is the presence of that which grace alone can provide.  (Although it may sound like it, this is not the same as the more modern view that Heaven & Hell are just states of mind that we construct. Because it involves grace, the mind of God being the source of faith, hope, and love, it goes beyond the horizon of modern thought.)

As Jesus said, in the midst of one of the most Hellish environments imaginable, "the kingdom of Heaven is at hand."

I think a lot depends on the human community which surroundis those persons, how able it becomes to 'channel' the faith, hope, and love that they need to flourish.

One traditional Christian view of the afterlife for persons in such dire straights is that they find themselves in a realm (purgatory) where angelic beings, who are able to transmit divine faith, hope, and love more reliably, assist them in facing "the bottom," which was unbearable in their life on earth.  The idea here is that "the bottom" is a kind of purifying crucible, which we can only withstand the heat of through the continuous supports of faith, hope, and love. So if, due to evil conditions, earthly life does not provide a person with such supports to establishing the reign of God in their hearts, purgatory does.  In some ways, this resembles traditional Buddhist views of 'purification of karma,' which are also universalist (in the end.)

Rishi,

Must digest your ideas more, but I think there's a lot of truth in there. The notion that Heaven and Hell are really just a difference in the presence of faith, hope, and love when we hit the bottom rings powerfully.

Mendalla

I manage and operate a cemetery as a retirement project ...

Talk about people hitting bottom ... but then they don't have to think about life anymore do they! Perhaps they do but canot any longer feel life as something beyond that horizon of cognizance.

One Funeral Director told me he wishes to be frozen in liquid nitrogen, have his head sharpeded to a razor point and driven into the earth ... perhaps because he doesn't like the concept of not feeling things from a cool perspective ... or maybe because he'd like to heat up some of the cold thoughtless religious perspectives. It does raise questions in my mind. The earth is a hard mire to take as we've fallen here by a Dantean mode ... expected to rise up and fight for out connections ... to everything. But alas we are a greedy population by education.

I think of hell as just life for 95% of humanity ... about 5% or less seem to think they deserve it all ... why the old script says we don't need tyrants and monarchs. Some hidden altruism there? As a child of a single parent I never got frenzied over what "religious" people did but they sure made me question the sense of Christianity these people were given as they fought with everybody and everything within their horizon as if it were their private territory to be controlled ... no sharing even considered. Wouldn't it be hell for those upright citizens to know they were hurting the rest of creation by just being alive? But denial is a great thing ... then one doesn't have to be aware of anything ... that's theri definition of heaven ... like the blast of sex as a sign ... mind blowing experience ... me, I' strange or alien I'D like to know how to do it better so we could learn faster how not to self-destruct ... Maxwellian humours? Is that smart or a different kind of heaven ... that's hell for the disallusioned about their wealth ... thinking it was theirs to take with eM as they were pounded into the Mire ... the last frontier of the imaginary ... soul? Da sum mind eh b'y ... wah oude Scie ... right on dah edge ...

LOL. Who says Baptists don't have a sense of humour?

Mendalla

Hi Kimmio-- I did not write this ,other men have . But it is very close to what I believe.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  Philippians 2:12-15

(12) Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; (13) for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure. (14) Do all things without complaining and disputing, (15) that you may become blameless and harmless, children of God without fault in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world,
New King James Version   Change Bible versions

These four verses admonish us on what God expects of us as the child in our relationship with Him. It is important for us to understand that "work out your salvation" does not mean work for salvation. It means we must take what God has given us to its logical conclusion. God liberated Israel from Egyptian slavery, but His purpose was not complete until they trekked across the wilderness and possessed the Promised Land. Their liberty came as an act of God's grace, but that same grace required them to meet responsibilities and carry them to their conclusion.

Verse 13 explains that God's grace did not end at the borders of Egypt for them, nor does it end for us once we are justified. He gives us both the motivation and the power to accomplish what His pleasure is for us. But we should understand that He gives us the desire and power to accomplish His will, not our pleasures. This is an excellent principle for parents to apply in motivating their children to respond positively. Children are largely the creations of their parents. If parents expect their children to reach certain goals, they must equip them with the attitudes, skills, and tools necessary to accomplish those aims.

"Fear and trembling" indicates both a deep respect for the Almighty who has called us, as well as a healthy measure of concern for uncertainties about what will be required of us as we proceed along this way. As we spiritually mature, the trials we must work through generally become more difficult, not easier. When the Philippians took up their cross, they did not know for sure what lay ahead, nor do we. For them, it was conflict (Philippians 1:29-30); for Jesus, death (Philippians 2:8); for Paul, martyrdom (Philippians 2:17); for Timothy, costly sacrificial service to the church (Philippians 2:20); and for Epaphroditus, physical illness nearly to death (Philippians 2:27).

Of course, these things are far more serious than a child's responsibility to put his room in order, but we must consider if God is fair in His dealings with man. Is a parent fair in charging his children with responsibilities to carry out around the house?

Hell to me , is not a place where you are put to die. all though it is called the secound death. Nor do I believe any one, is judge  there yet. God Bless airclean33

A few posts back, Mendalla said that we need to define "Grace" before discussing it.

To me, Grace is the awareness of universal unity or at-one-ment. This unity is already there, but most of us are not aware of it. Becoming aware of and experiencing our innate unity with everyone and everything, and thinking and acting from the depth of this awareness, is Grace.

As Rishi stated, often we need to hit rock-bottom, or undergo a severe personal crisis, a so-called dark night of the soul, before becoming aware of universal unity and divinity. 

Grace is a given ... that's A'Don's in old tongues sort of like a' pole us ... something to look upon as not the way to do IT ... so we don't ... beautiful souls are  non-existant they tell us ... imaginary like Newton's and other relative Jinn IO-us as portions of alchemy .. and you know what institutions believe of alchemy ... leads to change ...

That is to think ... a latent force in the emotional being ... but always some irregularities ... some of us do ... as nothing is perfect!

It's a given like PS alms ... is that sub Urnal ... like Matthew 6:8 ... the unknown father of all knowing what you need before you ask? That's a strickly out-of-here comment ... Eire! Post scripted ... like on a stele ... there has to be a bottom tuit or ID'll fall over ... Cos unknown to the St OI-c ...

Yes, revjohn, I agree: God's Grace is not a reward. But most of those who were graced try to become worthy of the Grace that was so miraculously bestowed on them. And some fall from Grace, and are graced again. Makes on speechless in awe and wonder.

Hi John:

My point was that most people whom we regard as saintly became so after they were graced. In other words, they were not graced because they were saintly, they became saintly because they were graced.

Some of them fell from Grace—in their own or other people's opinion—but lived up to it again and imagined themselves to be graced again.

My definition of "Grace" may, of course, differ from yours or other people's. I feel and think that we are united as one within the body of God. And experiencing this unity is Grace.

Welcome Sheldon!   I hope that you enjoy your time on the Cafe and share your thoughts and ideas with us.

Hi sheldon; welcome to wondercafe!

Reading the original post and responding to it is fine, especially if a thread is already several feet long when one first gets to it and one can't possibly respond to all replies.

Nice and so have been the other posts.  To restate, afterlife is a possiblity metaphysically and empirically, but so what.  It is the now that is our concern the after life is up to God. But what we do here and now makes a difference to Supreme Love now and as a resource.  But Supreme Love can take the negative and in the old gospel hymn wash it clean.  That is not our worry how it is done or if is done in each nano second.  Grace is God's business, which when we learn it, we offer to othersn - it becomes out character.

Thank you Kimmio.

Thank you Seeler and Arminius for welcoming me into your fold.

Hi airclean33... perhaps, the different understandings is exactly what is expected, and desired... after all, the Creator obviously loves wonderous diversity. We are a garden... isn't it more desirable to have a variety of beautiful, fragrant blooms?

With that, I am off to do shopping. I am very glad I found this place and I am sure you all have much you can teach me.

From what you've said, we have a lot in common, Sheldon,  All that you've said hits home. There is something that I like to remind myself of frequently. It's four sentences that I often repeat to help me stay centered. It goes like this:

I am nothing

I have nothing

I deserve nothing

But I am given everything.

I tend not to share that widely, especially the line that says "I deserve nothing," because it can give people the idea that I must be drowing in low self-esteem, self-hatred, etc. etc.  But I'm not, not by any means.  For me those words evoke nothing but grace and liberation.  But I think their beauty may be hard to hear, unless the person hearing them is also at the "bottom" and happy to be there.

It's a joy to meet you, Sheldon.  Welcome!

Well, Rishi and Sheldon, if you were given everything, then you are everything, aren't you?

Once one is given everything, then one becomes everything and nothing, has everything and nothing, and is everything and nothing.

Being everything seems like utter conceit, being nothing like excessive humility. But being everything and nothing is the highest possible conceit, the deepest possible humility, and the balance between the two. And, possibly, divine grace and enlightenment as well.

Yes, sheldon, I get what you mean.

Becoming everything, to me, is losing the sense of being an egoic self and becoming, well, everything.

After this, the individual self is still there, but no longer egocentric. It has shifted from egocentric to cosmocentric. Or, for those who regard the self-creative cosmos as God, the indvidual self is no longer in service of just itself but in the service of the all-inclusive totality which is God.

Hi Arminius,

Fair point.  The grace of God proceeds saintliness.  That is different than becoming worthy of grace though.

This appears to reduce grace to mere opinion.  That is has no real heft outside of the context of what I think.  If that is the case it isn't actually grace that we are dealing with so much as self-seteem.

If that is so it makes conversation exceedingly difficult.  Dictionaries exist only as evidence of wasted time attempting to define that which others define for themselves.

So then, using your own definition.  We are one within the body of God and that is something you have yet defined.  Experiencing this oneness is grace?  How is this grace given?  And those who do not have this experience what are they missing?

Grace and peace to you.

John

Hi John:

The unitive grace I believe in is not given. It is already there, but most of us are not aware of it. Becoming aware of it by experiencing it is grace.

Those who do not experience grace miss out on the experience of universal unity. They also miss out on the feelings that come with this experience, like unitive love, consciousness, and conscience. They further miss out on the impulse to enact those.

Enacting those is, of course, contained in the Commandments. But after we are graced, we abide by them voluntarily or intuitively, following an inner impulse.

I also think that this state of grace is Jesus' "kingdom of heaven." Jesus eloquently expressed his grace with the statement "I and the Father are one."

Why some people experience grace and others not is a mystery to me. It think we can come close to experiencing it in meditation. But not everyone who meditates experiences grace, and some who don't meditate do. I sometimes thought that belief in a separate God precludes an experience of unity with God, but some people who believed in a separate supernatural God did experience grace. Even some atheists experienced grace.

I sometimes entertain the notion that grace is sort of a postive psychosis, a rapturous high that releases a flood of endorphins which keep us in a postively charged emotional state. But then, from my experience as well as the anecdotal reports of others, grace persist even in a negative emotional state, even into death, and thus must be more than a mere emotionally positive psychosis.

Well, I'm speculating. But my experience of grace has given me the absolute certainty that there is a spiritual dimension to being.

Sola gracia,

Arminius 

Hi John:

Was I in doubt about "being" having a spiritual dimension to it?

Before the experience, yes. After the experience, never! In that I am an absolutist. But my certainty applies only to the experience itself.  As far as interpreting the experience goes, I am speculating.

Whether or not grace is self-generated is an interesting question. I think that separateness, or lack of grace, is an illusion created by the individual mind. Letting go of that illusion can result in an experience of grace

When we experience the creator-created unity, then this unity is a coming together of the two. The splitting of the two has been generated by the orginal One splitting itself into two, but the coming together of the two into original One is not really generated by either but is the awareness that the two are innately one. Grace, in my definition, simply is the awareness of what there is. The two are two, but also one. This seeming paradox is resolved in grace.

If oneness is the actual state of being, and separateness a man-made illusion, then all we have to do is let go of the illusion and the innate unity comes shining through. But it isn't that simple. The mere intellectual insight of or the belief in what I just said does not necessarily result in an experience of grace.