How could I have turned out any other way? real simple.  I could've made different decisions.  I could've tried to work things out with an olc college girlfriend instead of bailing out (long story, another thread...)  It isn't Mom or Dad's fault I am the way I currently am...  cetrtainly this wasn't exactly what they had in mind!

I guess all that is to say is Jesus is who Jesus is, not because of the one(s) who gave him birth.  They can bring him up but they can't live his life for him.  Given what I think of the idea of parthenogenesis, I don't think it matters much who his parents were.  Even with all the background and socialization he got from them, it was his own life, not theirs.  He was who he was, and is who he is, because of what he chose and did. 

This all made sense when to me I typed it.  Hope it still does to you.

Yes, it does.

To me it does.

His name is Jesus, God the Son, fully human and fully God. See, it really is quite simple.

Not fully God, but a son of man still in a process of becoming as likened unto God.

Lucifer thought himself to be a god & look where it got him.

He became as a worm, & all sorts of creepy unclean things.

Yet he was spirit, as likened unto god but chose evil intent over his being a son, he wished to be Father.

Lucifer is a prodical son, a mere son of man who is sorry for all he has started.

The truth is you see, mankind carried the tortch long after this son of man has been repentant.

The truth is, antichrist is all who will judge as though they are not their brother's keeper.

The words of Christ will indeed be regarded within the cannon as key words of testimony against the church, & the words expressed in the book of revelation are key prophetic statements of rebuke of the church & this includes all the representatives of Christ.

The name "Jesus" is secondary to the word Christ, for the name of a man is what divides us, & it is the Christ, or Spiritual baptism, that unites all creation.

We are only free from judgement through this baptism & not from a name of a man.

People can use the name of Jesus all they want, but if their heart is not in alignment with the Spirit behind this Christ.

The Power given to you is null & void.

The Jews could not get past the man Jesus & it robbed them too of Power.

We all have names, & we all have fallen, this is just the way it is.

Jesus became perfect, through Spiritual baptism from birth, & was in communion with God the Father from day one.

We on the other hand, choose to either go the way of Godly instruction, or not, it is up to us & we do choose.

Bolt

amen there CF

Hi crazyheart,

Well, Jesus is who Jesus is partly because of who his mother was.  We really do not know enough about Mary to say with any certainty where we see her reflected in what we know of Jesus.

I expect that Jesus is who Jesus is because of forces other than Mary as well.  Did he never talk to Joseph?  Did he never interact with anyone else other than Mary?  Did he never experience anything on his own?

Nope.  Mary was not good.  At least not good in the way that Jesus would recognize it.  Remember him saying there was no one who was good but God?  Mary isn't God therefore Mary isn't good.  She, like the rest of us, has sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

In the doctrine of original sin lies the theological understanding that the sin of Adam falls upon all of the children of Adam.  Jesus escapes the sin of Adam, theologically speaking, because it is understood that his father (God) is not a child of Adam.  

Sinfulness, in this paradigm is genetic and it is passed on through the father.  So Mary as far as Mary is concerned she is infected by sin but not contagious.  Joseph also infected by sin is contagious.  God, not infected by sin, is not contagious.  Jesus as the son of Mary (not contagious) and God (not contagious) is good.

Adoptive father according to the narrative and not the biological father.

Mary is who Mary is.  She is described in the narrative as blessed by God.  That, really is about it.  Also according to the narrative is Mary's humility she has no idea why God would choose her to bear his child.  

Grace and peace to you.

John

The whole virgin birth myth is so that Jesus can be the son of God despite being human. 

So Mary is responsible for his humanity and God is responsible for his deity.

Much like the movie The Lightning Thief.

Your answer is a mature one, but I have to say that the Spiritual element in all this is far lost in iterpretation indeed.

There is however an element of deception that is far more organized than the Church of Christ as a collective whole, or as intended.

The agenda is world domination, with this in mind, one has to think that a motive of assurance is something to consider, yet an element of control is at work in all of it.

Bolt

You are very correct in you description, this is a problem you see.

This motivation of world domination is beyond human control now my friend, it takes supernatural intervention because supernatural means are in effect right now in alegence to this motive.

I have been shown some things that are rather unexpected, yet align with scripture in ways that are rather deep indeed.

The very movement of God will be challenged by the very church that put's the name of Christ on the doorways, yet there is idolatry in the very foundations of this colletive.

The motive of God will be seen as antichrist, & it will be such a flipside to what many scribes & theologins now believe to be gospel.

lucifer is the least of our concern now, for we hand authority to a heartless beast, indeed.

Sometimes, lessons learned the "hard way" are lessons learned indeed.

You are preaching to the choir.

Bolt

Actually, I will not expand on this without further study to back my perceptions, or what I refer to as revelation.

I will say this, the heart of mankind is under a bond to never come between God & man, no matter what the world can deliver as a testimony, or church can deliver from scripture as a deception.

Christ offers personal revelation with a baptism of the very Spirit that creates all living things, & thing not "living" as we know it.

There are so many things that the world just doesn't understand, that the Kingdom of God offers, that are actual solutions to problems, instead of delving on our past lessons of a greater understnding, & calling them evil when we ourselves constantly move beyond the threshold & have learned a great deal about God, through all of this.

I know this is hard for some to accept, but the alternative glorifies the goodness of God beyond what spoken word can describe.

We constantly try to make this difficult when it's really simple to the mind of Christ.

Bolt

Evil is a testomony to all that is good, even beyond what good has to offer in the Kingdom to a being that thinks himself as perfect, just becaue they are created in the likeness of God in knowing both good & evil.

The secular world is a testimony against the church, for even the world will offer some sort of evidence when it offer's judgement.

The church doctrin judges a man based solely on the use of a name of a man to offer that which enlightenment offers to all who will indeed find faith in it.

It is the teachings of this man Jesus the Christ that hold all the merit, for what is inspired by the Holy Spirit is indeed to true authority to this man, & this man is now delegated by the highest authority, to be our King, Judge & Representantive of God in every way that is capable in this world, & the next.

But this Jesus is not God, only He is the first of this new creation under heaven, which is likened unto God in the way we are truely intended.

The knowing of good & evil is the start of understanding the difference, for if there was evil ever allowed to be expressed in the Holy of Holies, that would indeed be a beginning to the end, as opposed to the beginning of our new beginning.

Bolt

No need to be sorry, I'm glad for you if you understand.

I realize this, which is the point.

I have it worked out in my mind already for myself,  it's the ability to express it well that is the challenge.

Peace to you as well

Bolt

 Crazyheart,

Can you share the novel's title?

That line from the book is quite a common belief for some. I would say it either simply represents the authors theology (common to see it show up in a character or in the language) OR it represents the theology of those who the author sees as their primary audience.

You asked, "Is Jesus who he is because of who his mother was?"

I would have to say, maybe so, maybe not. There are those heavily influenced by family and those not so heavily influenced. There are those who heavily influenced, turn out the same and those who turn out just the opposite.

"Did Jesus inherit goodness through his mother's genes?" I would never think of saying somone would be detined to badness because of their genes or that they would be destined to goodness because of them. I know the children of my father's killer. They are good, honourable and decent people. I know a woman who raised her children with all we would value and call good, and  she has children in the penal system. We can both rise above and sink below where we come from. In this instance, our choices often outweigh whatever data is contained in our DNA.

For me, I do not look at the mother of Jesus, Miriam/Mary, as "the Virgin Mary". I do not believe in the Virgin Birth of Jesus. I do not believe she was impregnated with God or by God with God's sperm. I do not believe her own conception was Immaculate. I believe that developed to explain things that were unexplainable.

I do believe she had strong faith and was raised to depend on God always, even though she was in many ways marginalized (by her gender, by foreign domination, by class...). I believe she supported and nurtured who Jesus could be, was and was to be and what he felt called to do and be.

I believe the Gospels, compiled years later, tried to make sense of Mystery.

Hi crazyheart:

If one takes both "virgin" and "mother" metaphorically, then "mother" could mean "spiritual mother" or "mentor," "virgin" could mean "Temple Virgin" or "priestess," and the "virgin birth" could be indicative of a spiritual birth or re-birth.

The "Virgin Mary" could have been a priestess of the various mystical sects or cults that were in existence at that time, and she could have initiated Jesus into the mysteries of her sect. As a result of this, Jesus could have had a spiritual birth or re-birth.

Mary could have been his spiritual mother. He could indeed not have turned out any other way if he had an esoteric Temple Virgin for his mentor/mother.

I have been frantically reading a novel that has to be back at the library tomorrow and this nugget got my attention.

How could Jesus have turned out any other way as he had Virgin Mary for a mother?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------God chose Mary. Mary didn't chose to have Jesus, it was Gods plan. I Believe it had to do with Eve  . Adams wife concieved sin with out a man which  is death  when we are born we wear it. Mary concived  with out a man an  brought forth Life.God evened the scale for women. Man could not say Women Brought Death. With out saying praise be to Mary a women  through who comes Life. WE have a Living God that gives life. We have a Son of God That Life Comes through that Lives again. An a Holy Spirit that teaches us these things.

Hi chansen:

Joseph's song:

Mary had a baby,

Pretty little baby,

All I know he's not from me.

But Joseph married her anyway. Good for him!

chansen, you really tend to be as literal or make as many jumps as some fundamentalists. I expect more open-mindedness when one claims it.  =)

Is it infidelity if one is chattel to be used as another pleases? Can one promise to be faithful in heart but not in body? As a woman, there are still places where a woman cannot promise what might happen with her body. There are places still, and there were definitely times in our past, where a woman had no control and no say so over her own body. We are talking about a time and a society where men were masters. They were owned by their father and then their husband or master. If a man wanted sex with you, he asked your father and if the deal was done, you had no say so. Many  (if not most) women were bought from their families or at auction. Could a poor, ancient Jewess say no to sex with a man? So, infidelity would be what exactly?

Is it ever infidelity to be raped?

As a woman in an extremely patriarchal society, she was 24-7 vulnerable. In an occupied country, she was even more vulnerable.

Betrothed did not mean romantic love. It meant a family financial deal.

The fact that there was caring might have been odd.

Who said she lied? If she told her betrothed something and the world they lived in filled in their blanks with something else, is she a liar? If in a purity system, two low in status need to be made higher in the annals of history, does it make them liars? If there was genuine understanding, caring... beyond the constructs of social and religious standards and expectations, do you know how odd that might have been?

Do you know the status a child would have if they or their mother did not know who they belonged to? 

It is sad that people still wrestle with how one can be an honourable woman and become pregnant while unmarried. It is sad that we tend to think still in terms of moral and immoral behaviour.

The exact circumstance of her pregnancy should not matter. Sadly, it still does.

For me, the message Joseph and Mary showed, the message their son lived and died spreading was that the purity system was wrong. It was not just. It was not compassionate and it was not godly. Immorality and morality should be determined by what a person was in their heart, not what status they had or what they did... that what came forth from a person and not what went into them is what mattered.

That's a very good point.  I could see that being the case.

Still doesn't make her, or her child, anything extraordinary.  Especially for the times.

sounds like a song, staying alive, staying alive  a a a ,,,,,

the 3 wise men , beg to differ with you

of course it is said , 3 heads are better than one.

dont feel bad , you must be use to it

StevieG--In Isaiah-7-14 I think you believe you think this vers talks about a young women . Rather than a virgin. Would that have been big news in Israel that a young women conceived and had a child  In those days?If not wouldn't God be saying virgin?

somewhere in your mind you dont