rishi
War & Peace: A Tale of Two Cultures
Posted on: 02/03/2012 17:39
We were sitting together in a large circle, myself and several residents of the Veterans Wing at a large Canadian hospital. They had come because they were interested in having an open conversation about 'spiritual matters'. And my role was to lightly facilitate.
"Joe" got the conversation started with the following provocative comment:
I like war better than peace. Peace makes people too soft. During the war (WWII) people at home pulled together, making sacrifices. They helped one another all the time, and they also supported the troops overseas in any way they could. [He gives various examples]
"Jane" chimed in:
Well I certainly wouldn't want there to be another war like that one! But I know what you're saying. There was a real threat to the common good, and everyone understood that, and we all pulled together. We had a common cause, and we were able to put aside things that didn't really matter. Now, in peacetime, people fight like idiots over things that don't really matter at all like who has the most expensive clothes or who gets the best parking place. It's ridiculous. Maybe we do need some kind of threat to wake us up.
"George," a retired UCC minister with over 50 years of ministry experience, enters the conversation:
I see the same problem that you are talking about in today's church, but I don't think it has to do with war and peace. In the church that I attend now, all the minister talks about is how the congregation is like one big happy family, and how nice it is to belong to this family, and so on. And I think to myself: 'The church is a mission!!! not just some cozy family!!!' But I don't say anything. I think it's a very serious spiritual problem. Even the ministers today don't have a real sense of call. So what can you expect?
Even though we are not objectively at war, there really is a battle going on in our society. There really is a great threat to the common good. But people can't see it or feel it anymore. It's not just that we're in peacetime. It's that we don't understand what spiritual warfare is about anymore. We're not concerned about good conquering evil within our own lives. So we're losing the war. The Kingdom of God is only going to come when we really want it to. And as long as we think there's no need for spiritual warfare anymore, we're not going to really want it to. We'll just let the world destroy itself instead.
There was a silence in the circle, and all the residents were looking in my direction. Then George broke the silence and asked me what I thought about all of this.
A number of scriptures, some seemingly at odds with others, related to war and peace were floating through my mind, bashing into one another:
John 14:27
Peace I leave with you; my peace I give to you I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled, and do not let them be afraid.
Isaiah 2:2-4
In days to come
the mountain of the Lord’s house
shall be established as the highest of the mountains,
and shall be raised above thehills;
all the nations shall stream to it.
Many peoples shall come and say,
‘Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord,
to the house of the God of Jacob;
that he may teach us his ways
and that we may walk in his paths.’
For out of Zion shall go forth instruction,
and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
He shall judge between the nations,
and shall arbitrate for many peoples;
they shall beat their swords into ploughshares,
and their spears into pruning-hooks;
nation shall not lift up sword against nation,
neither shall they learn war anymore.
Matthew 10:34-39
"Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and one's foes will be members of one's own household. Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; and whoever does not take up the cross and follow me is not worthy of me. Those who find their life will lose it, and those who lose their life for my sake will find it.
Luke 2:34-35
Simeon blessed them and said to his mother Mary, "This child is destined for the falling and the rising of many in Israel, and to be a sign that will be opposed so that the inner thoughts of many will be revealed--and a sword will pierce your own soul too."
Ephesians 6:12-18
For our struggle is not against enemies of blood and flesh, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers of this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places. Therefore take up the whole armor of God, so that you may be able to withstand on that evil day, and having done everything, to stand firm. Stand therefore, and fasten the belt of truth around your waist, and put on the breastplate of righteousness. As shoes for your feet put on whatever will make you ready to proclaim the gospel of peace. With all of these, take the shield of faith, with which you will be able to quench all the flaming arrows of the evil one. Take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. Pray in the Spirit at all times in every prayer and supplication. To that end keep alert and always persevere in supplication for all the saints.
And I was also thinking about contemporary attempts to remove images of violence from the Bible, or at least to not quote them. None of this seemed like the best thing for me to say, though.
I found myself at a loss in terms of how to respond. So I ended up essentially evading the question by throwing the ball back to them. But now that I'm home, I'm trying to piece together how exactly I am responding to that conversation. It's striking me as pretty complicated, not just because I'm a good 30-40 years younger than the residents and have not experienced what they have, but also because I sensed that there was some truth in what they were saying that they were aware of but that I couldn't quite 'get'.
So how do you find you respond to it?
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Comments
Arminius
The existence of us humans is
Posted on: 02/03/2012 19:40
The existence of us humans is more seriously threatened than ever before. Not because some outside power or force is fighting an all-out war against us, but because we are fighting an all-out war against the natural environment that sustains us. The natural environment does not fight back; we are fighting the war to exterminate our natural environment one-sidedly, all by ourselves, but when the war is over, it is over with us. This is a war against ourselves. If we don't stop the war in time, we'll be the losers.
Spirituality, or lack of spiritual awareness, has a lot to do with it. If we were spirtually aware, then we would be aware of our connectedness with everyone and everything and stop this insane war. Spiritual awareness is social and environmental awareness. Spiritual responsibility is social and environmental responsibility.
Kimmio
I don't know where Jane and
Posted on: 02/03/2012 20:24
I don't know where Jane and George got the idea we're in peacetime. Unless they aren't watching reading the news at all. Seems to me there are plenty of wars and war games being played, with everyone in the world at risk. We're certainly not in peacetime. Many people are ignorant to what's going on...but many do get it. It makes me a little upset that they romanticise war, I know they remember when everyone pulled together...but war is awful. Awful, awful. We do have a spiritual war going on against evil...but it won't be solved by physical armies and weapons.
graeme
There is a website called
Posted on: 02/04/2012 16:21
There is a website called Canadian Veterans Advocacy. It gives quite a different view of what war is like, what it does, and just how much we help (or don`t help) our soldiers.
We sort of pulled together in World War Two - though there were glaring gaps. Nor was the evil so generlly noticed. In fact, Canada officially discriminated against Jews before, during, and after the war. There were prominent business leaders who admired Hitle, and who openly supported him. Mackenzie King was impressed on a meeting with Hitler, comparing him to Joan of Arc. And, of course, even in pulling together in Canada, the world world was scarcely pulling together.
Mackenzie King knew that Canadian public support for WW2 was shaky. that`s why did did his best to keep Canadian troops out of the fighting as long as he could. Dissastifaction in the first word war had destroyed the conservative government. He didn`t want it to happen to him. As it was, Canadian did not pull together on the issue of conscription - and, despite popular myth - the problem was not confined to Quebec.
In World War Two, it was easy to see the other side as evil (and to ignore the similar evils we had been doing for centuries.) That contributed to the pulling together. I saw no such pulling together in Afghanistan or in Libya. (Nor was it altogether clear to me which side was the evil one.)
For many reasons, world war two was not a typical war. It`s dangerous to draw general rules from it.
As a general rule, war destroys at least one side. Sometimes both. And whatever pulling together there might be comes at one hell of a price.
Generally, war does not make people tough. It makes them brutal and indifferent. Generally, it does not bring them together. It tears them apart.
And, generally, wars are not good against evil. Those are labels pinned on them to seduce people into fighting them.
spiritbear
What was the common thread of
Posted on: 02/04/2012 20:32
What was the common thread of all the speakers? Seems to me it was a longing for everyone to work towards the common good. And isn't that what we are "called" to do when we are asked to build God's "Kingdom" on earth, and isn't peace the foundation of that Kingdom? Peace that is more than just the absence of war? Peace that is based on justice (in God's sense of the word) for all and malice towards none? Perhaps the problem with "peacetime" "threats" is that we can put them off to another day in a way that can't happen during wartime. The threat is more easily identified in wartime (even if God would disagree with what or who is regarded as the threat).
What are the impediments to real peace right now? Greed, self-interest, hardheartedness, an attitude towards our environment that says "grab what you can now before it runs out"? And I agree with Arm that the antidote to this is the development of a spiritual "connectedness". Without that there is no peace, no justice and no common good.
WaterBuoy
What does common good say of
Posted on: 02/05/2012 08:57
What does common good say of the corporeal soul?
Then the imagination is just ouda here ... that's the thinking other's ide ... that the corporeal must read into ...
IT's somewhat of depth like a po'eL ... aL-ite ... alloyed to the dark?
airclean33
Hi rishi- I believe someone
Posted on: 02/05/2012 16:01
Hi rishi- I believe someone wrot , For evil to win . It just has to have good men and women do nothing.--------I like all the vers , you chose. But think I would go with.---------------
Isaiah 2:2-4
In days to come
the mountain of the Lord’s house
shall be established as the highest of the mountains,
and shall be raised above thehills;
all the nations shall stream to it.
Many peoples shall come and say,
‘Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord,
to the house of the God of Jacob;
that he may teach us his ways
and that we may walk in his paths.’
For out of Zion shall go forth instruction,
and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
He shall judge between the nations,
and shall arbitrate for many peoples;
they shall beat their swords into ploughshares,
and their spears into pruning-hooks;
nation shall not lift up sword against nation,
neither shall they learn war anymore.--------------------------------------------------------------------All Glory Be To God.
WaterBuoy
An' th' ole man in the high
Posted on: 02/05/2012 20:04
An' th' ole man in the high space be the Shadow ...
Dark, abstract, like spirit in the word ... some can't see into it's depth Go'Lem is data eu?
rishi
Stan Hauerwas on war &
Posted on: 02/08/2012 19:45
Stan Hauerwas on war & peace:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RaFfGfQprjE&feature=related
Happy Genius
WaterBuoy asks: What does
Posted on: 02/09/2012 08:28
WaterBuoy asks:
What does common good say of the corporeal soul?
-------------
Easy:
"Stop eating junk food, excersise,,,,,,and put that out!!"
He sez:
Then the imagination is just ouda here ... that's the thinking other's ide ... that the corporeal must read into ...
======================== Ahem.
OOOOOH, The Hippocampus
Worries about how others stamp us
Talks to the Amidula about the prefrontal's dreams
(About life being not what it seems)
(A campus for hippos? Not what you suppose
Search for an honist tutorial
On what is and isn't corporeal
When you find it try and see
If it mentiopns reality....
==================
IT's somewhat of depth like a po'eL ... aL-ite ... alloyed to the dark?
Now what you say about "the dark":
Can you find it in the park?
Does it make a dog bark?
Is it food for an elf?
(I'm a photon man, m'self)
WaterBuoy
HG, That's gravid mon,
Posted on: 02/09/2012 09:11
HG,
That's gravid mon, watch where yas tops out ...
Then deire is dis phaelin episode ...
Likes when you're Goan taes leap ...
Sum t'imes no end tuit! Thyll earning goes on and on like it sat in dah bo'que ... the stories of light go on and on myth to the mortal ... like that's beyon dus tae? Astarious ... lye Black!
Happy Genius
WaterBuoy
Posted on: 02/09/2012 19:21
HG,
That's gravid mon, watch where yas tops out ...
Then deire is dis phaelin episode ...
Likes when you're Goan taes leap ...
Sum t'imes no end tuit! Thyll earning goes on and on like it sat in dah bo'que ... the stories of light go on and on myth to the mortal ... like that's beyon dus tae? Astarious ... lye Black!
What?
Do you have an internal desire to be continually non-understood?
I'm truly sorry that I have to pass over about 98% of your posts
I think deep down you truly have something to say...
I regret that you take so much effort to be to me completely incomprehensable.
(perhaps , deep down, I have nothing. )
Oh well...
WaterBuoy
HG, Its a non orthodox
Posted on: 02/10/2012 09:32
HG,
Its a non orthodox religious thing that allows floe ... motion ... contrary to institution ... they frequently fail .. as we see approaching but ... find ourselves in a state of denial ... de Lucianal dimension? Its only human ...
If you speak of your delucians they wash ... known as catharsis in old tongues ... sort of like Bath'chi'ba ... or the Shadow of Love something to die for ... thus thinking disperses ... Gabrielle is data eu? It's a huge satyr understood by few ...
You see real people didn't really wish to know so I don't tell eM much ... and most people are happy except the authorities that don't like to be told something they don't know ... I learned this working with some very powerful people that couldn't see consequences in any way, shape or form of light (cognizance?) like the Islamic SuFi stated you can only understand if you can place yourselves in the shoes of a person in another place, time and illuminati ... causing the blood to boil in other caldrons!
Thus the concept of the sadal for the po'folk ... let's get out of here and that conception faded into a whole different story that earlier intended in the calibration of a fabric ... missis Ca La Bash? You remember her J'aim-ein-heh!
Do you know how easy it is to state non-sense to those that don't know the words? Of course then they didn't wish to know much in the beginning ... but thy're good to stir like Shakespearean witches ... the pope burned those women for knowing how to read. That's how easily it is to step out-of-line of authority and get into the realm of the humble unknown.
Have you read "The Help" it is a great illustration on the isolation of any Shadow persona ... in de south there was no way Black Folk like Bathsheba or Gabrelle woda known anything but by quietly observing the ridiculous tendancies of the other types of people ... factors of hue mani Tiye? Is this saedistic or just phunai? Depends on your point of view in Heiseinberg Uncertainty ... rests ... inside or outside a corrupt system ... there are always consequences for certain observations ... affects the emotional state leading to total collapse ... some can't see it why prophats of Ð'oem are hated ... Clingons opposition?
Get a grip onite mon ...
Can you conceive of the opposing powers to spiritual motives ... like Shadowy thinking that this might not be a proper pathe? If you don't you propbaly don't believe in the concepts of spirit versus soul mon ... and thus you are missing a good potion of what is psyche and then you might freely do what you please without consequences that yule never know about ... cognizance is a paenful thing to those that hate that kind of devil that is part and parcel of God that is integral ... dew hole thing .. the whetted pits as ancient archetype of the medium of psyche ... that's mind in a dimension where it is mostly lost ... they can't seem to find the sole ... is that phe-shy or what?
InannaWhimsey
rishi, 1.
Posted on: 02/10/2012 09:43
rishi,
1. Everything has a cost. This is both good and bad and indifferent. If your goal is to get rid of costs at all, then you will lose.
2. Everything operates by observable behaviours.
3. Not everyone on Earth holds the same behaviours to be good -- within a population, people can hold contrary beliefs.
4. Everything is relationships -- what we call a 'thing' is just a relationship between relationships at a certain point in space at a certain time.
5. What worked in the past won't automatically necessarily work in the future. Reality is a constant state of flux, which includes one's self.
Life, then, consists of learning these behaviours, these relationships and learning what costs one can live with and what costs one cannot.
WaterBuoy
In short one should learn to
Posted on: 02/10/2012 09:52
In short one should learn to amorphus ... like the medium of mind ... dark clear waters ... where bad things are deep-6'D for future lessons as we forget reladily ... or just didn't wish to know in the 1st place ...
Did you know at one time this amorphus state was known as phlogeston ... sort of like theis knot of brae'NZ ... blows right through when accumulated as emotions and though departs ...
Relax,
I think this tue ... a fabrication ... Lacy and fragile like psyches are ... easily lost ...
Just look around vast satyrs ... especially in thin n'ere Eire ... up th'ere!
rishi
InannaWhimsey wrote: 1.
Posted on: 02/10/2012 11:04
1. Everything has a cost. This is both good and bad and indifferent. If your goal is to get rid of costs at all, then you will lose.
2. Everything operates by observable behaviours.
3. Not everyone on Earth holds the same behaviours to be good -- within a population, people can hold contrary beliefs.
4. Everything is relationships -- what we call a 'thing' is just a relationship between relationships at a certain point in space at a certain time.
5. What worked in the past won't automatically necessarily work in the future. Reality is a constant state of flux, which includes one's self.
Life, then, consists of learning these behaviours, these relationships and learning what costs one can live with and what costs one cannot.
That would have been a great response, and if it were spread out in the course of an hour conversation I think it would have been doable and well received by the participants. What I like most about it is that it is not infantalizing, which responses to elderly persons' questions often seem to be. Also, it is responsive to what I believe is a real need that they are experiencing, to come to some coherent conclusions (for themselves & to pass on) based on a lifetime of experiences which many people no longer relate to. Thank you.
Arminius
Hi WaterBuoy: A true
Posted on: 02/10/2012 13:12
Hi WaterBuoy:
A true fabrication—love it!
By the way, did any of you know that the word "fabrication" comes from Fabriano, Italy, were paper was first mass-manufactured, or fabricated, about 700 years ago?
Not only is paper a fabrication, the words on it are too. But some words are truer that others—true fabrications, eh?
WaterBuoy
Arm, Altruism of a medium
Posted on: 02/10/2012 19:37
Arm,
Altruism of a medium ... but again do mortals like mediums ... the carriers of tails?
As Krist saed; love thyself and the neigbour ... but in emotional people hoo'd care ...?