I think that anyone who strives for what they think is good with all their heart, they'll get a seat in heaven.

I've always wondered why it's so hard for most people to accept that God, whatever you conceive God to be, will gather in all of us, no matter what.

Do we really need to believe in vengence so much? Are we still so primitive that we need some people to "go to hell" to justify some people going to "heaven"?

FG, I've enjoyed your comments in a number of threads so let me ask you - your statement makes "heaven" conditional. Why do you believe that to be the case? A sincere question. I have a feeling that it was a puzzler for Jesus as well. It must have been mind boggling to have his message rejected in favour of dogma.

David

GoldenRule,

re your comment, " Do we really need to believe in vengence so much?"

I guess it's a carry over from childhood, where we learnt right from wrong by way of punishment. But you're right, it's time to grow up.

claudia,

We have laws to deal with such people, Hell isn't the answer or the solution.

or the corporate boss who okays a strip mine, or the politician who champions a project that floods whole communities, or the average citizen who turns a blind eye to the homeless person sitting on the street corner ...

*ALL* come up short when it comes to "thinking like God" - which is what the word hamartano means.

As PilgrimP says, we have a childish , a "human" perspective on what "justice" is.

Let me offer this scenario -

Pretending for a moment that in heaven we are all pretty much as we are here.  You walk up to St. Peter and, pointing at the man you knew was abusing his wife and kids next door to you for ten years, you demand "What the hell is HE doing here??"

To which St. Peter replies "Him? You mean St. Michael? He went down to test your moral instinct. You failed by the way. Ten years you knew and never stopped him. But God forgave you anyway."

Whose was the greater sin? Who's the greater forgiveness?

Be Well

David

Bernie

My version is - there is an afterlife, it is something like Heaven, and absolutely everbody goes there. But each person initially experiences exactly what they expect to happen. For some that might be scary, for some it will be wonderful. But that phase is temporary and it is self-impossed.  And in all cases your guides are staying very close. Eventually everyone emerges into a calm, wonderful heaven and they carry on with their learning. When ready, they move into another incarnation and continue learning and experiencing.

Oh yes - There is no Hell, not for anyone, even Saddaam. The only thing that comes close is the short, self-impossed experience. But it is an illusion and the deceased person is never "physically" injured.

Its not to popular to teach and preach on hell now a days, maybe because in the past its been used as a hammer, but the truth is Jesus taught on hell , so it must be

Valhalla, the Happy Hunting Ground, Heaven - what are these things? The are the method that primitive people used to deal with the death of their parents. They are part of the ancestor worship that is a key element of all religions that humans have ever invented. You are going through the same emotions and process, Bernie. As human societies have increased in knowledge, their view towards the various afterlife dogmas, myths, and views has also changed. Versions that don't change with the times - Valhalla - are supplanted by more "modern" varieties. With the generic terms "heaven" and "god" people are free to project whatever they want onto these open concepts, and they do - that's why there are as many religious opinions as their are people.

Everyone has an opinion. And note that they are just that - opinions. Some claim that if you are "nice" to others, then you go to "heaven". But this is a complete contradiction of Jew/Christ/Muslim doctrine, which specifically spells out that obedience to the character Yahweh/Jesus/Allah, not how you live your life, is the only means for life after death. If those who believe in "niceness" correct, then these religions are false. If one of these religions is correct, then all people who think they will get to heaven if they are "nice" are wrong. So what is the reality?

The evidence seems to be overwhelmingly on the side of the opinion that all these versions of heaven are imaginary. Look how different the opinions are, and how nobody can provide any convincing evidence to sway the opinions of those who disagree with them. They are all using wishful thinking. People make up their heaven to be whatever they want it to be. Some include gays, members of other religions, and atheists; some include only their particular sect. Every believes in a heaven which, conveniently, reflects their own personality and tolerance level. This should illustrate that all of these claims are wishful thinking, and are based upon nothing more than the human fear of death.

Certainly few of us look forward to death. But there is no evidence that any afterlife exists. All we know shows that when we die, we're dead, like every other form of living matter. Death is the conclusion of life. All that claims otherwise has been debunked as myth, or consists of unsubstantiated wishful thinking.

Life is what it is. The prospect of an imaginary feast tomorrow is not required for me to enjoy the lunch I have today. So enjoy your lunch today. Come to terms with the death of your father. But don't cause yourself unnecessary angst by fretting over the hells and heavens that other humans have invented and used as a means of social control over others. Such forms of cosmic justice are twisted revenge fantasies, used to convince the poor and the weak not to rise up against the priests and the princes who rule them.

If, by some slim chance some sentient, judgemental creator force exists, and actually grants an afterlife to one species of primate on one in an infinite number of planets (ie, us), is it even remotely possible that such a being cares either way about which temple you grovelled to it in on the odd Sunday morning? Is it not more likely that such a creator force would value good deeds more than the rituals and supplications of people who mistook the Yahweh/Jesus/Allah characters in the Bible/Koran for a real creator god or force? Do not lose any sleep over the stories and powers people attribute, without evidence, to fictional characters.

There is!!

And He is already waiting. He won't reject anyone but many will reject Him.

Be Blessed,

IB

"I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

Yes & we should IMO take into account Who this is Who is saying this.

He is the truth, His is the example we should strive for according to our ability to accept His influence through the Holy Spirit.

Those who reject Him now will in fact call Him Lord on bended knee in reverance when all is reveiled.

Then He looks closely at every heart, into the very bottom of every heart of every person who ever walked this earth in every age & judges each person accordingly.

Yes indeed,  no one comes to the Father except through Him.

This is how I see it.

Bolt

Funny, Matthew seems to have a Jesus of a different opinion. Silly old book, it can be used to "prove" just about anything you'd like. huh.

Thanks for providing a good take off point my friend.

I think I'm a little like RevJohn here (gasping to say it - grin) I don't think its a matter of choice, so our "wanting" to come in or not is a non-issue.

Where I differ from John is in degree. He believes God will/did/has chosen only some of us for "heaven". I believe that we are part of God, and when this life ends we will return to the Creator. Period.

All those Zeus-god images, Pearly Gates, angels taking attendance, streets of gold, belong to "the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob." They were created by and for a people who thought that you could climb a mountain and touch the sky and that God played favorites amongst "His" creations.

Where I differ from John is in degree. He believes God will/did/has chosen only some of us for "heaven". I believe that we are part of God, and when this life ends we will return to the Creator. Period.

 [/quote}

So thinking about what you have said, Goldenrule. We will return to the creator = then heaven is probably right here on the earth that is.

That's true!

Proclamation is one thing and doesn't necessarily merge with truth!

Be Blessed,

IB

I think its well within our power to make this "heaven on earth." And, to be perfectly honest, I think that the only reason we fail to do so is because we fall into the fallacy of thinking its a lot more difficult than it really would be to do so.

However, I cannot conceive, being human, what it will be like when my consciousness merges totally with Theos. (and just to head off the "who" people, theos is the Greek word used for God, more closely meaning "divinity", without gender or human attributes.) Probably won't care much about streets of gold though.

I'm sorry my friend but I cannot agree with that, It doesn't say that everyone who doesn't believe in Jesus goes to hell.

It does mention the Lambs book of life, but do you think it's a book that Jesus uses for referance? Or a book with pages?

The lambs book of life is a metaphor for true interpretation of the new covenant, & Jesus is the truth the way & the life. He alone is the one who makes the call of where one goes.

It is clear satan & his minions & his followers those who are of full & nonrepentant wickedness will go where their influence takes them.

All respect intended, careful reading of the scripture on this issue is very advantagous.

We just don't have that authority regardless what scripture may seem to say about the authority that God gives us through the inheritance of Christ,  but for us to say who goes to hell is placing ourselves in Jesus' level of authority, & that isn't a good thing.

Only the Trinity of God knows what is inside the heart of every indevidual, Jesus is the Judge because He walked & lived among us & knows exactly with every detail that is involved with the human condition, & had victory over it.

Please, please rethink & reread scripture on this some & pray about it.

At least before you say anything like that again. I say this out of brotherly effection, & out of the truth as I see it.

Bolt

Unfortunately my friend, multitudes pass by the doors of thousands of churches with nary a peek inside precisely because they think everyone inside believes what Jae espouses.

Tis a sad thing indeed.

Yes, and he has made that clear in the Bible. It tells us to believe in the Lord Jesus and be saved.

Agreed.

Agreed, Jesus decides.

Agreed.

If one is truely repentant, they are forgiven as long as they learn to forgive others.

There is absolutely no penalty for that sin they are forgiven.

 There is consiquence with regards to how we grow in our spirituality though.

We are also judged by our fruits, we will be placed in a level of authority in the Kingdom according to our fruits, our works & most importantly,our motive of these works.

If our works & motives show lack of the faith in things God teaches us in our life journey, we can expect to see our place lacking in comparison to ones who's works & motives excell in the faith in things God teaches in our life journey.

This is how I see it. 

Bolt

heavenly beurocracy, now that would be hell