Mely
Why won't left-wing people support ex-Muslims?
Posted on: 09/07/2010 23:22
It seems that, in my family at least, small-L liberals are not interested in hearing bad things about Islam, even when these bad things are coming from ex-Muslims or moderate Muslims who receive death threats for making their views known. For example, I have a daughter who is somewhat of a feminist, and has studied sociology. She is concerned with the rights of women, but her need to respect other cultures seems to over-ride this concern.
I think this is a wide spread phenomena in the west. For example, Ayaan Hirsi Ali (author of Infidel and Nomad) has been criticized a lot by liberals in the west, even though she speaks out strongly for the rights women and gays. Apparently liberals in the west would rather stand by and do nothing while woman are beaten and raped and forced into marriage, right here in Canada, rather than say anything that might offend another culture. This doesn't seem right to me.
Ayaan Hirsi Ali speaks about this on an interview on Australian TV, here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTA9XuAR_iI&feature=player_embedded
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Arminius
Bad things come from bad
Posted on: 09/08/2010 01:43
Bad things come from bad people, who could be Muslims, Christians, Jews, atheists, agnostics, communists, fascists, liberals, socialists, conservatives, etc. And one can support human rights, women's rights, animal rights, and be an environmentalist—and belong to any of these groups.
Witch
Racism sees only the bad
Posted on: 09/08/2010 02:07
Racism sees only the bad people in a group, and decides to hate all of them.
It's too bad you have decided to give your soul over to hatred Mely.
Mely
Witch...did you watch the
Posted on: 09/08/2010 02:34
Witch...did you watch the video I linked to? Please watch it and then respond with something besides name calling.
Are you suggesting that Ayaan Hirsi Ali is a racist?
Mely
Arminius, True...but if you
Posted on: 09/08/2010 02:33
Arminius,
True...but if you are (or were) a Muslim and you support womans' rights, you will have to be very brave to speak out publicly, since many people will try to kill you.
The_Omnissiah
No one has tried to kill me
Posted on: 09/08/2010 02:48
No one has tried to kill me Mely.
As-salaamu alaikum, Ramadan mubarak
-Omni
Mely
Omnissiah, I'm glad to hear
Posted on: 09/08/2010 03:56
Omnissiah,
I'm glad to hear no one has threatened you. However, others are not so lucky:
http://www.canada.com/topics/news/national/story.html?id=4adfea61-c543-42d0-ac15-3a62eda0807f&k=53130
waterfall
The_Omnissiah wrote: No one
Posted on: 09/08/2010 07:39
No one has tried to kill me Mely.
As-salaamu alaikum, Ramadan mubarak
-Omni
With all due respect Omnissiah, you are a muslim living in Canada surrounded by a mostly non muslim population. Are you able to openly disagree with the Quar'an within your mosque?
waterfall
I think what she is objecting
Posted on: 09/08/2010 07:48
I think what she is objecting to is Islamism as opposed to moderate Islam? Which I believe is more fundamentalist and increasingly being adopted more in other countries. Christianity is becoming more secular and the move for Islam to reject this has increased---which includes Sharia law.
I may have my information wrong. So correction is welcome. (because of course, I'm not Muslim)
Happy Genius
Mely
Posted on: 09/08/2010 09:14
Arminius,
True...but if you are (or were) a Muslim and you support womans' rights, you will have to be very brave to speak out publicly, since many people will try to kill you.
Well my experience is very limited, but my Muslim friend's wife would say that is nonsense.
waterfall
Happy Genius wrote: Mely
Posted on: 09/08/2010 09:19
Arminius,
True...but if you are (or were) a Muslim and you support womans' rights, you will have to be very brave to speak out publicly, since many people will try to kill you.
Well my experience is very limited, but my Muslim friend's wife would say that is nonsense.
I wonder if she's referring to a fatwa, which does exist in the world?
Arminius
waterfall
Posted on: 09/08/2010 10:04
No one has tried to kill me Mely.
As-salaamu alaikum, Ramadan mubarak
-Omni
With all due respect Omnissiah, you are a muslim living in Canada surrounded by a mostly non muslim population. Are you able to openly disagree with the Quar'an within your mosque?
I think many Muslims openly disagree with an absolutist/literalist interpretation of the Koran, even in their mosque, just like there are many Christians who openly disagree with an absolutist/literalist interpretation of the Bible, even in their church. I do.
The Prophet Mohammed—whose name be praised—instructed his community to teach by way of analogy in order to avoid friction. Metaphorical language is a prominent feature of Arabic culture, and Arabaic culture and language is the culture an language of the Koran. This is similar to the traditon of midrash in the Judaic culture.
waterfall
Arminius wrote: waterfall
Posted on: 09/08/2010 10:27
No one has tried to kill me Mely.
As-salaamu alaikum, Ramadan mubarak
-Omni
I suppose it depends on which sect your from, just as in Christianity as you say.
Some would interpret Jihad as internal conflict and some would be on the other end of the scale and say it's an all out physical war against the infidels. And some would embrace a little of each.
As with anything, we need to know who we are talking to.
I agree Islam can be a beautiful concept, just as Christianity can. Both are often bastardized.
With all due respect Omnissiah, you are a muslim living in Canada surrounded by a mostly non muslim population. Are you able to openly disagree with the Quar'an within your mosque?
I think many Muslims openly disagree with an absolutist/literalist interpretation of the Koran, even in their mosque, just like there are many Christians who openly disagree with an absolutist/literalist interpretation of the Bible, even in their church. I do.
The Prophet Mohammed—whose name be praised—instructed his community to teach by way of analogy in order to avoid friction. Metaphorical language is a prominent feature of Arabic culture, and Arabaic culture and language is the culture an language of the Koran. This is similar to the traditon of midrash in the Judaic culture.
I assume you are speaking of the more "modern" Islam, which I think most of us have encountered.
For example some sects of Islam believe Jihad is an internal struggle, while a more fundamentalist interpretation would mean all out war against the infidels. And some would rest in between both on their belief. It would depend on the Muslim scholars interpretation (Sunni, etc....). Much like Christianity.
There's no doubt in my mind, that Islam is a beautiful religion and so is Christianity, I agree. Unfortunatley both can be bastardized and we have to know who we are speaking to.
This woman in the video has a bodyguard and fears for her life. She comes from a country where she is not allowed to speak out. Much like Salomon Rushdie. Both of his interpreters were killed, and anyone that supported his right to publish his Satanic Verses.
The Dutch reporter that drew a picture of Mohammed in a bad light, was also threatened. And even Mr. Jones has been threatened with death (not that I support his views, but I don't believe the death threats are justified either)
Panentheism
Witch you usually are very
Posted on: 09/08/2010 10:54
Witch you usually are very perceptive but in this case missed the point being asked.
What role do we have in critizing fundamentalist - of any religion or ideology ?
There is a very important debate going on about the different forms of Islam - from within and from scholars. It is important to remember that sometimes our ideology of equality means all are the same - all are good or all are bad. We need to critize those aspects that are dangerous.
In the Ottawa Citizen there has been an interesting discussion of Muslims critizing others for not be strong enough in their comments about the dangers of fundamentism in Islam. Not only that but why are those well educated and north american raised turning to extreme forms of Isalm? It is a real discussion and what I hear being asked why do we liberals pretend this is not a real issue.
Have we lost critical consciousness in the name of relativism? Is there a form of acceptence that is not nuanced enough?
Arminius
Hi waterfall: One of my
Posted on: 09/08/2010 10:56
Hi waterfall:
One of my points was that traditional Arabic culture has been metaphorical, much like traditional Judaic culture. Literalism in both cultures is a more modern phenomenon. A return to the original, metaphorical spirit of midrash is post-modern.
Very ancient cultures, like our Canadian aboriginal culture, were very metaphorical. Aboriginals were surprised when they realized that those supposedly smart Europeans took their sacred stories literally.
I think Salman Rushdie was on a vendetta against fundamentalist Islam, as are other anti-fundamentalists. Although we may value human rights, and disagree with other people when it comes to interpreting scripture, trashing what they hold sacred is not conducive to a fruitful dialog with them.
Jim Kenney
There was a column in
Posted on: 09/08/2010 11:12
There was a column in Saturday's Calgary Herald by two Muslims critical ot the reluctance of non-Muslims to challenge the leadership of "Moderate" Muslim organizations to condemn Jihad. On Cross-Country Check-up on CBC on Sunday afternoon, at least two or three Muslims phoned in to emphasize the importance of getting the Muslim leadership to directly speak against Jihad instead of uttering meaningless phrases such as "Islam is a religion of peace". Pax Romana was all about peace as well, peace that resulted from the relentless and merciless oppression of all opposition by the Roman military.
I have worked with Muslims -- one of my recent administrators was an immam as well as an educator, and many of my past students are Muslims -- and I have great respect for them as individuals. The issue in the Muslim faith, and particularly in some congregations such as the one near Montreal, is that intelligent, well-educated, Muslims are taught that Jihad, the use of violence against the enemies of Islam, is a necessary part of being a real Muslim.
We have come to condemn the Inquisition, the Church's historical response to internal and external threats, as contrary to the basic tennets of Christianity, and we, in the Christian faith, also need to be ready to be critical of those Christians whose behaviour shows a deep disrespect for the beliefs of others, especially in some of their evangelical activities in other countries as well as at home.
We need to be ready to ask our Muslim friends to match this with their condemnation of Jihad which is not contrary to the basic tennets of their faith.
Happy Genius
waterfall wrote: Happy Genius
Posted on: 09/08/2010 11:17
Arminius,
True...but if you are (or were) a Muslim and you support womans' rights, you will have to be very brave to speak out publicly, since many people will try to kill you.
Well my experience is very limited, but my Muslim friend's wife would say that is nonsense.
I wonder if she's referring to a fatwa, which does exist in the world?
No. There are hundreds of those. She's talking about how she gets along with her husband.
waterfall
Panentheism wrote: Witch you
Posted on: 09/08/2010 11:48
Witch you usually are very perceptive but in this case missed the point being asked.
What role do we have in critizing fundamentalist - of any religion or ideology ?
There is a very important debate going on about the different forms of Islam - from within and from scholars. It is important to remember that sometimes our ideology of equality means all are the same - all are good or all are bad. We need to critize those aspects that are dangerous.
In the Ottawa Citizen there has been an interesting discussion of Muslims critizing others for not be strong enough in their comments about the dangers of fundamentism in Islam. Not only that but why are those well educated and north american raised turning to extreme forms of Isalm? It is a real discussion and what I hear being asked why do we liberals pretend this is not a real issue.
Have we lost critical consciousness in the name of relativism? Is there a form of acceptence that is not nuanced enough?
Bingo! Some are quite comfortable criticizing our own Chrisitianity but not very comfortable challenging Islam.
It probably will take a change from within the Islamic faith groups themselves though, because it is somewhat exclusive and mostly foreign to us. We would be seen as "secularizing" their faith rather than contributing any meaningful comments.
.
GRR
Mely wrote: It seems that, in
Posted on: 09/08/2010 12:52
It seems that, in my family at least, small-L liberals are not interested in hearing bad things about Islam, even when these bad things are coming from ex-Muslims or moderate Muslims who receive death threats for making their views known.
...
For example, Ayaan Hirsi Ali (author of Infidel and Nomad) has been criticized a lot by liberals in the west,
Good topic Mely
The question you're asking, if I'm reading your post correctly, is a good one.
The challenge for people like Ayaan Hirsi Ali is the same as it for anyone else who has a legitimate perspective - to avoid broad-brushing "Islam" (or anything else) in their attempt to champion their cause. For example, in the little footnote that pops up on the interview you linked to, she's quoted as saying that "men of colour.. Muslim.. Chinese, Indians .. are excused from that same scrutiny...." referring to challenges to treatment of women. minorities, etc.
That statement, to me, is no more accurate or helpful than someone like Dawkins dismissing all people of faith because he has an axe to grind - in some cases legitimate - against the Anglican Church. It makes it difficult to support the legitimate part of the argument since it means by default being associated with the hyperbole as well.
Rev. Steven Davis
Might I add, Mely, that the
Posted on: 09/08/2010 13:11
Might I add, Mely, that the suggestion that "you have decided to give your soul over to hatred" was, in my opinion at least, totally uncalled for.
Witch
Mely wrote: Witch...did you
Posted on: 09/08/2010 13:52
Witch...did you watch the video I linked to? Please watch it and then respond with something besides name calling.
Are you suggesting that Ayaan Hirsi Ali is a racist?
When you judge the whole by the actions of a few extremeist, then you are a racist, by definition.
Would you be in agreement that all Christians are abortion doctor assassins? That all Christians picket funerals of fallen soldiers? That all Christians torture children accused of Witchcraft?
No?
Allllllllllrighty then.
When you post a racist diatribe, you can hardly complain when people say you are racist.
Azdgari
Technically, Witch, it's not
Posted on: 09/08/2010 14:35
Technically, Witch, it's not racism when the bigotry is not based on race.
Witch
Azdgari wrote: Technically,
Posted on: 09/08/2010 15:09
Technically, Witch, it's not racism when the bigotry is not based on race.
Adj.
1. racist - based on racial intolerance; "racist remarks"
2. racist - discriminatory especially on the basis of race or religion
Religion is predominanatly determined by country of origin, and so is inextricable from race for all intents and purposes.
There is no real difference between being prejudiced toward someone because they are Muslim, and being prejudiced toward someone becaue they are from a country that is predominantly Muslim.
For instance, anti-semitism, a particular instance of racism, is the term used whether someone is prejudiced toward people who are of Isreali descent, or of Jewish religion.
Rev. Steven Davis
<em>http://wordnetweb.prince
Posted on: 09/08/2010 16:03
Adj.
1. racist - based on racial intolerance; "racist remarks"
2. racist - discriminatory especially on the basis of race or religion
That's a highly self-serving and selective definition. You could just as easily have chosen:
Witch
Yeah a lot of people don't
Posted on: 09/08/2010 16:27
Yeah a lot of people don't want to acknowledge the racial component to religious discrimination because while they have no problem being discriminatory prejudicial bigots, they hate being labelled as a racist.
Personally, if the only arguement you have to defend any particularly disgusting prejudice is that it's not racist, then you're missing the point.
...a strong religious in-group identity was associated with derogation of racial out-groups. Other races might be treated as out-groups because religion is practiced largely within race, because training in a religious in-group identity promotes general ethnocentrism, and because different others appear to be in competition for resources. In addition, religious racism is tied to basic life values of social conformity and respect for tradition...
Why Don’t We Practice What We Preach? A Meta-Analytic Review of Religious Racism
Duke University, Durham, NC
Augsburg College, Minneapolis, MN
University of Southern California, Los Angeles, wendy.wood@usc.edu
Rev. Steven Davis
I'm not making any argument
Posted on: 09/08/2010 16:26
I'm not making any argument to defend any particularly disgusting prejudice. I'm simply pointing out that you chose to offer (as if it was the last word on the subject) a definition that conveniently suited your purposes in spite of the fact that it's not what appears to be the consensus opinion. That's all.
Apparently when the consensus opinion of the experts disagrees with you, you feel free to ignore it. On the other hand, if others do the same thing, you call them on it.
Witch
So you don't agree that any
Posted on: 09/08/2010 16:30
So you don't agree that any particular religion is primarily determined by race or country of origin?
By your arguement the term "towelhead" isn't racist, because it's a statement of fashion, not race.
Rev. Steven Davis
Witch wrote: So you don't
Posted on: 09/08/2010 16:45
I can buy that, although it's increasingly more common for people to break out of their traditional religious culture and adopt a different one. Christianity is making great inroads in Asia & Africa; Islam is making great inroads in North America and Europe (although to some extent that's a factor of immigration rather than large numbers of Europeans/North Americans converting, although some are.) I know of one former evangelical North American Christian who became a Wiccan!
The only argument I'm making is that you used a selective definition that doesn't fit the consensus opinion of the experts. If you want to imagine that I'm making any other arguments or statements, feel free to.
Witch
Nice to see you didn't bother
Posted on: 09/08/2010 16:45
Nice to see you didn't bother to check out the meta-study I referenced.
But that's OK, if you really need to make racists less despicable by removing the racial component of religious prejudice, and convincing yourself that the experts don't acknowledge it, there's not much I can do to convince you. After all, if uneducated people on this forum can claim to know more about biology and physics than biologists and physicists, what's to stop you from knowing more than sociologists and psychologists from Princeton, Duke, Augsburg, and USC?
Rev. Steven Davis
I believe you posted before
Posted on: 09/08/2010 16:50
I believe you posted before you saw my edit. I agree that there's a racial component to religious discrimination. You still posted a selective and self-serving definition. That's my point. Did I read the study you posted? Not yet. I will. At this moment in time I'm preparing a nursing home service for next week, coming up with a sermon plan for December 26, editing my sermon for this Sunday and perusing Wonder Cafe as a break now and then. Unlike some, I multi-task.
Arminius
Although Islam originated in
Posted on: 09/08/2010 16:50
Although Islam originated in Arabia, and the language and original culture of the Islam is Arabic, it spread all over the world and is now embraced by people of all races. But the Arabic culture of Islam has imprinted itself on its followers, much like the Judaic culture of the Bible has imprinted itself on Christianity.
The religion of Witch, though, is genuinely European: The original and genuine white man's religion.
Rev. Steven Davis
Arminius wrote: Although
Posted on: 09/08/2010 16:58
Although Islam originated in Arabia, and the language and original culture of the Islam is Arabic, it spread all over the world and is now embraced by people of all races. But the Arabic culture of Islam has imprinted itself on its followers, much like the Judaic culture of the Bible has imprinted itself on Christianity.
The religion of Witch, though, is genuinely European: The original and genuine white man's religion.
True, Arminius. One could also point out that although Islam originated in Arabia, the largest Moslem country in the world is an Asian country - Indonesia. Christianity - while of Judaic origin - "became" European and I've read one article recently suggesting that soon the country with the most Christians in the world will be China. None of that had to do with large-scale immigration, but by the conversion of people predisposed by their culture to other religions to accept either Islam or Christianity. Buddhism is making inroads among Westerners as well.
Rev. Steven Davis
Witch wrote: Nice to see you
Posted on: 09/08/2010 17:09
Nice to see you didn't bother to check out the meta-study I referenced.
All I seem able to call up is a one paragraph abstract of the article.. I'm not sure that's enough for me to comment on. It seems I have to pay $25 to access the full article. I'll wait for the movie I think. You also, of course, posted your original definition without reference to either the article or abstract which, if your argument is based on either the article or abstract, wasn't helpful.
Arminius
Rev. Steven Davis
Posted on: 09/08/2010 17:23
Although Islam originated in Arabia, and the language and original culture of the Islam is Arabic, it spread all over the world and is now embraced by people of all races. But the Arabic culture of Islam has imprinted itself on its followers, much like the Judaic culture of the Bible has imprinted itself on Christianity.
The religion of Witch, though, is genuinely European: The original and genuine white man's religion.
True, Arminius. One could also point out that although Islam originated in Arabia, the largest Moslem country in the world is an Asian country - Indonesia. Christianity - while of Judaic origin - "became" European and I've read one article recently suggesting that soon the country with the most Christians in the world will be China. None of that had to do with large-scale immigration, but by the conversion of people predisposed by their culture to other religions to accept either Islam or Christianity. Buddhism is making inroads among Westerners as well.
Yes, Rev. Steven, I can't help but agree with what you say.
I myself found my way back to the Christianity of my childhood and youth via a roundabout route through atheism, Buddhism, aboriginal spirtuality, and Sufism. Although I consider myself experientially spiritual rather than doctrinally religious, the Christian religion of my childhood and youth has imprinted itself so strongly on me that it is my favourite spiritual expression.
The power of cultural imprinting, eh?
Katschen
waterfall
Posted on: 09/08/2010 18:20
No one has tried to kill me Mely.
As-salaamu alaikum, Ramadan mubarak
-Omni
With all due respect Omnissiah, you are a muslim living in Canada surrounded by a mostly non muslim population. Are you able to openly disagree with the Quar'an within your mosque?
Omni is also male and let's be honest, even in our own North American non-Muslim terms, this makes a huge diffference regarding how open or outspoken one can be...
Azdgari
Witch, if one wishes to
Posted on: 09/08/2010 18:23
Witch, if one wishes to include discrimination on the basis of non-racial, acquired attributes (such as "religion") in the definition of "racism", then I suggest using a different word for it - one that does not contain the word "race" in its etymology. It is misleading to employ "racism" in the way you have done.
Mely
Arminius wrote: I think
Posted on: 09/08/2010 20:12
I think Salman Rushdie was on a vendetta against fundamentalist Islam, as are other anti-fundamentalists. Although we may value human rights, and disagree with other people when it comes to interpreting scripture, trashing what they hold sacred is not conducive to a fruitful dialog with them.
If you think Salman Rushdie deserves to be killed because he made insulting remarks about fundamentalist Islam (the fatwa issued by Ayatollah Khomenei in 1979 still stands, the current leadership in Iran has indicated this) then what about the many atheists on this site? How are they tolerated on a web-site supported by a Christian church, some of whose members would be very offended by their views?
Happy Genius
Jim Kenney wrote: ... that
Posted on: 09/08/2010 20:48
... that intelligent, well-educated, Muslims are taught that Jihad, the use of violence against the enemies of Islam, is a necessary part of being a real Muslim.
We need to be ready to ask our Muslim friends to match this with their condemnation of Jihad which is not contrary to the basic tennets of their faith.
Well, A wide range of opinions exist about the exact meaning of jihad. Muslims use the word in a religious context to refer to three types of struggles: an internal struggle to maintain faith, the struggle to improve the Muslim society, or the struggle in a holy war.] The differences of opinion are the result of different interpretation of the two most important sources in Islam, the Koran, and the hadith.
M'self, I see it as a bad reading in most cases like Jesus' "I came not to bring peace but a sword"
We need to be ready to ask our Christian friends to put down that sword!
Cheers!
MistsOfSpring
In a society with an
Posted on: 09/08/2010 21:00
In a society with an overwhelmingly Christian history and in which the majority of the population have been raised in some kind of Christian denomination, we pretty much understand the differences of various groups in terms of beliefs. We don't have that same level of knowledge about Islam and therefore it is all seen as the same thing. Even though many of us know there are differences there just like in Christianity, we don't have the words to clearly distinguish one group from another and be clearly understood. I think that's a major reason that people won't say anything negative, because it appears to be negative against the entire religion rather than just the people who are using the religion to defend cruel or evil acts.
Ichthys
"Apparently liberals in the
Posted on: 09/08/2010 21:23
"Apparently liberals in the west would rather stand by and do nothing while woman are beaten and raped and forced into marriage, right here in Canada, rather than say anything that might offend another culture."
There is not one sane Muslim, I know who supports that and I'm sure I won't finda sentence in the Qu'ran encouraging anything close to what you wrote. Jsut because people do certain things in the name of religion doesn't mean that there is any kind of base for that in the religious writings.
Arminius
Mely wrote: Arminius
Posted on: 09/09/2010 01:38
I think Salman Rushdie was on a vendetta against fundamentalist Islam, as are other anti-fundamentalists. Although we may value human rights, and disagree with other people when it comes to interpreting scripture, trashing what they hold sacred is not conducive to a fruitful dialog with them.
If you think Salman Rushdie deserves to be killed because he made insulting remarks about fundamentalist Islam (the fatwa issued by Ayatollah Khomenei in 1979 still stands, the current leadership in Iran has indicated this) then what about the many atheists on this site? How are they tolerated on a web-site supported by a Christian church, some of whose members would be very offended by their views?
Hi Mely:
I don't think Salman Rushdie or anyone else who slanders other people's religion ought to be killed or harmed in any way.
Salman Rushdie, having grown up in Bombay and knowing Muslim fundamentalists and their particular sensitivities quite well, chose to goad them by portraying their prophet in an unsavoury light. He didn't have to do that. I suggest he deliberately antagonized them under the guise of freedom of expression.
Deliberately antagonizing our neighbours whom we don't happen to agree with is not a wise choice, and not conducive to interreligious, social or interracial harmony. There is such a thing as respectful disagreement.
Atheists are well tolerated on this site. I ought to know; I'm one of them (sometimes :-). Some fundamentalists may feel offended by my views, but haven't pronounced the death sentence on me—yet.
Actually, I feel respected by the fundamentalists posting on this site, and I respect them.
Mely
Ichthys wrote: "...woman are
Posted on: 09/09/2010 02:48
"...woman are beaten and raped and forced into marriage..."
I'm sure I won't find a sentence in the Qu'ran encouraging anything close to what you wrote
Qur'an (4:34)- "Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great."
Qur'an (38:44) - "And take in your hand a green branch and beat her with it, and do not break your oath..."
We shouldn't be burning it, we should READ it.
Panentheism
MistsOfSpring wrote: In a
Posted on: 09/09/2010 10:41
In a society with an overwhelmingly Christian history and in which the majority of the population have been raised in some kind of Christian denomination, we pretty much understand the differences of various groups in terms of beliefs. We don't have that same level of knowledge about Islam and therefore it is all seen as the same thing. Even though many of us know there are differences there just like in Christianity, we don't have the words to clearly distinguish one group from another and be clearly understood. I think that's a major reason that people won't say anything negative, because it appears to be negative against the entire religion rather than just the people who are using the religion to defend cruel or evil acts.
Good observation - we need to know more so we can see which parts of a group are dangerous rather than the whole group - in a similar way some christian fundamentalists are dangerous as witnessed by those who kill or suggest killing abortion doctors - or the burning of the Koran.... the more one knows about Islam one knows there is a wide and different understandings and like christians some infighting - there are some who claim a pure Islamic view and seek to convert other muslems to the true faith. They see western ideas as dangerous to a pure Islamic viiew and thus the west is evil = because it makes moderate muslim more moderate. This is a group within the many theological views and I see them in a like manner as I see all extreme fundamentalists. An like fundamentalists they can find in their texts when read literally support for their stance.
Our collective problem is reading anything literally - and it can effect even liberals.
MorningCalm
Mely wrote: Qur'an (4:34)-
Posted on: 09/09/2010 17:43
Qur'an (4:34)- "Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great."
Qur'an (38:44) - "And take in your hand a green branch and beat her with it, and do not break your oath..."
We shouldn't be burning it, we should READ it.
Hi Mely,
Interested in learning more about these writings, I did a quick web search using Google. Among the writings (seems there are different interpretations) I found this...
"...Reading this verse as if for the first time, it suddenly occurred to the translator that what the Quran says in 2:231 contradicts the way 4:34 has been interpreted over the centuries by everyone except the blessed Prophet. The translation in the Sublime Quran of 4:34 reflects the interpretation as the blessed Prophet understood it: “Men are supporters of wives because God has given some of them an advantage over others and because they spend of their wealth. So the ones (f) who are in accord with morality are the ones (f) who are morally obligated, the ones (f) who guard the unseen of what God has kept safe. But those (f) whose resistance you fear, then admonish them (f) and abandon them (f) in their sleeping place, then go away from them (f); and if they (f) obey you, surely look not for any way against them (f); truly God is Lofty, Great.” (source: http://www.sublimequran.org/ )
Interesting stuff, no?
Peace in Christ.
Mely
Jae wrote: Mely wrote: Qur'an
Posted on: 09/09/2010 22:45
Qur'an (4:34)- "Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great."
Qur'an (38:44) - "And take in your hand a green branch and beat her with it, and do not break your oath..."
We shouldn't be burning it, we should READ it.
Hi Mely,
Interested in learning more about these writings, I did a quick web search using Google. Among the writings (seems there are different interpretations) I found this...
"...Reading this verse as if for the first time, it suddenly occurred to the translator that what the Quran says in 2:231 contradicts the way 4:34 has been interpreted over the centuries by everyone except the blessed Prophet. The translation in the Sublime Quran of 4:34 reflects the interpretation as the blessed Prophet understood it: “Men are supporters of wives because God has given some of them an advantage over others and because they spend of their wealth. So the ones (f) who are in accord with morality are the ones (f) who are morally obligated, the ones (f) who guard the unseen of what God has kept safe. But those (f) whose resistance you fear, then admonish them (f) and abandon them (f) in their sleeping place, then go away from them (f); and if they (f) obey you, surely look not for any way against them (f); truly God is Lofty, Great.” (source: http://www.sublimequran.org/ )
Interesting stuff, no?
Peace in Christ.
She sounds like a kind and sincere lady and I wish her all the best, along with other reformers like our own Canadian Irshad Manji. But they are up against tough odds:
"Meanwhile, the head of one of Canada's leading Muslim organizations said he would not permit Bahktiar's book, The Sublime Quran, to be sold in the bookstore of the Islamic Society of North America because he believes women should be beaten for disobedience. "Our bookstore would not allow this kind of translation," says Mohammad Ashraf, ISNA's secretary general. "I will consider banning it."
His objection is not that Bakhtiar is a female scholar, but that she was not trained at an academic institution accredited in the Muslim world – he cites the University of Medina in Saudi Arabia as such a place. "This woman-friendly translation will be out of line and will not fly too far," he says. "
(see http://www.feministezine.com/feminist/religion/Disobedient-Muslim-Women.html).
This is the man that was overridden by Ingrid Mattson, president of ISNA, as noted on the link you provided.
I have read a lot about this and a large part of the problem is the extremely conservative Wahabbi sect that Saudia Arabia has been pouring billions of dollars into promoting. Mecca is currently in Saudia Arabia (since 1920's) and they are, from accounts I have read, very firm about pushing their line at the annual Hajj pilgrimage, which among other things, forbids visits to tombs. They will actually stand at Mohammed''s tomb and harass people try to venerate tomb. They have numerous other ideas that were not at all mainstream (but are picking up steam with this extensive campaign).
They also have a minority Shiite population in their country who are under serious restrictions--not allowed to hold their public processions which are very important part of their sect.
Meanwhile, in Shia Iran, there is not a single Sunni mosque even though there are quite a few Sunni's in Iran.
Read all about Wahabism in book by Stephen Schwartz, "The Two Faces of Islam." He is a Shiite Sufi who write regularly for The Weekly Standard (regarded by most readers of this site as a right wing rag). Who would have guessed WS had a regular Shiite Sufi contributer?
One has to educate oneself.
Thanks for the link and I am very happy to hear about Laleh Bakhtiar and wish her every success.
Mely
Correction to above post: I
Posted on: 09/09/2010 22:58
Correction to above post:
I meant to say, there are no Sunni mosques in Teheran (not Iran as a whole).
stardust
Hi Mely To be honest I wish I
Posted on: 09/09/2010 23:15
Hi Mely
To be honest I wish I had met more people of the Muslim faith. We did have some families in our apt. bldg. who appeared to be quite orthodox if that's the proper word. They were nice and friendly. Its not my habit to discuss religion so of course I didn't. They left immediately after 911. I am kind and friendly to everyone in an ordinary sense making no distinction because of religious beliefs or race.
Call me racist...call me names....I don't mind because I can't help being very afraid of sharia law which the Muslims tried to have enacted in Ontario. It was turned down by Mc Guinty -sp. I'm sorry that I only know what I see,hear, or read about in the media so I confess to being left with a very bad impression I can't seem to shake. Due to their large pop. numbers I'm afraid they will take over the world in the future. Off with our heads! I know my fears are irrational.
Omni on the WC is the only Muslim I know regarding Muslim beliefs and he is a treasure.
A website I just googled about hopes for modern Muslims of a more moderate faith, not so extremist.
Is Islam Compatible With Democracy and Human Rights?
Mely
stardust wrote: Hi Mely To be
Posted on: 09/10/2010 16:03
Hi Mely
To be honest I wish I had met more people of the Muslim faith. We did have some families in our apt. bldg. who appeared to be quite orthodox if that's the proper word. They were nice and friendly. Its not my habit to discuss religion so of course I didn't. They left immediately after 911. I am kind and friendly to everyone in an ordinary sense making no distinction because of religious beliefs or race.
Call me racist...call me names....I don't mind because I can't help being very afraid of sharia law which the Muslims tried to have enacted in Ontario. It was turned down by Mc Guinty -sp. I'm sorry that I only know what I see,hear, or read about in the media so I confess to being left with a very bad impression I can't seem to shake. Due to their large pop. numbers I'm afraid they will take over the world in the future. Off with our heads! I know my fears are irrational.
Omni on the WC is the only Muslim I know regarding Muslim beliefs and he is a treasure.
A website I just googled about hopes for modern Muslims of a more moderate faith, not so extremist.
Is Islam Compatible With Democracy and Human Rights?
Interesting site. The writer does not say, but seems to be atheist or at least agnostic. On the home site, I read the article "The Silent Holocaust" by Iranian, Azam Kamguian. He sounds totally fed up and I cannot blame him, I have read several chilling books written by people who escaped from Khomenei's regime.
Thanks for link.
stardust
Mely There is so much reading
Posted on: 09/11/2010 00:20
Mely
There is so much reading on that site that I haven't taken the time to cover very much of it or to check out the owners or the organization whatever it is. Quite a bit of what I have read isn't new to me. I've heard it all before in one form or another.
I do catch a Muslim religious program on TV sometimes and it is fine. I've never read the Koran. They offer to send it out free of charge.
seeler
I see this as a question of
Posted on: 09/11/2010 09:02
I see this as a question of what to do when our values clash. When one one hand we believe in respecting others culture and religion and their right to self-determination; and our concern for those we see as victims.
How do we balance our ideas when what is right in one case might be wrong in another?
Mely, it seems that you and your daughter are on opposite sides of this debate. You are very concerned about women's rights. Your daughter is more concerned about respecting the rights of another culture and religion. I probably sit on the fence, trying to understand both arguments.
Happy Genius
Mely wrote: Ichthys
Posted on: 09/11/2010 08:57
"...woman are beaten and raped and forced into marriage..."
I'm sure I won't find a sentence in the Qu'ran encouraging anything close to what you wrote
Qur'an (4:34)- "Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great."
Qur'an (38:44) - "And take in your hand a green branch and beat her with it, and do not break your oath..."
We shouldn't be burning it, we should READ it.
We should try to understand it. Do you have a problem with the teaching of leviticus?
Do you beilieve that sparing the rod spoils the child?
C'mon!